A possible fix to AC

[curboUS]

AC is suppossed to reduce hits on your character, but in this day its more or less useless in high-end content for most builds.

So i was thinking - AC should scale at the same pace as To Hit do without making the character totally immune to damage. Since we have glansing blows and automatic hits on high rolls the later part is handled.

So in addition to the effect AC have now we should add the following.

I suggest that each level should have a AC rating baseline, that AC number should give the most defence for the cost involved. The benifit should climb fast to that baseline (AC of character minus the starting 10) and climb slowly after (diminished return for real high AC).

Let AC have a percentage change for a failed To Hit based on current AC, scaled to level.

Ex (the number here are not exact or even reasonable - only for showing a pattern)

Lets assume that we want a miss change of 30% for a 'good' AC for a given level.
[formula for miss/AC point): (baseline AC/10 AC points gives 3% miss change up to baseline +1% above the baseline]

Level 4: AC 30 -> Baseline AC 20 => 2 points AC above 10 gives 3% up to 30 then +1%. So 26 AC have 24% miss, 34AC have 32% miss, 42AC have 36% miss, 50AC have 40% miss, 70AC 50% miss and so on.

Level 14: AC 50 -> baseline AC 40 => 4 points AC above 10 gives 3% up to 30 then +1%. So 26 AC have 12% miss, 34AC have 18% miss, 42AC have 24%, 50AC have 30% miss, 70AC have 35% miss and so on.

Ofc 30% is taken form the air - 20% may be a more reasonable starting number.

Some benifits from this aproach:
No one will want to totally dump AC, getting it up to 'good' will be to benificial.
Feats like Precision can be made usefull if they reduce the miss chance on opponent, say +5 to Hit -10% miss & -5 damage.
Feats like that affect AC & ToHit (mobility/weapon focus/spring attacks) gan be given a set percentage on adding/reducing miss change, say mob +4%, W focus -2 % spring attack -4% etc.

On a side note: If fortification was changed - it could be linked to AC in a simular maner before other bonuses are applied.

Sorry for the long post and hopefully it is is somewhat readable and comprehensible.

[Talias006]

Readable? Check.
Comprehensible? Check.

Needed? TBD, but for arguments sake, I'd rather they not fix AC to represent this idea. Not that it's a bad idea, just that it takes AC into a direction that's neither needed nor warranted. I mean, it sounds great if it were pitched for a different game, but I like the way AC is formulated now. Oh, and I have to ask, how likely is that 70 AC at level 4 going to be? AC is just half of the picture, the other half is mobs to-hit inflation, imo.

/not signed

[Thucydides04]

Why does AC need changed again? As it stands now the only place AC does NOT work is in epic quests. The only fix that needs applied is epic mob/boss to-hit numbers.

Glancing blows should probably be re-evaluated as well. That system has to be one of the worst systems ever implemented besides the skull system, and the reasoning behind the implementation of both was attrocious.

[noinfo]

Why does AC need changed again? As it stands now the only place AC does NOT work is in epic quests. The only fix that needs applied is epic mob/boss to-hit numbers.

Glancing blows should probably be re-evaluated as well. That system has to be one of the worst systems ever implemented besides the skull system, and the reasoning behind the implementation of both was attrocious.

If only the Devs would even respond to these requests with any type of comment.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Why does AC need changed again? As it stands now the only place AC does NOT work is in epic quests. The only fix that needs applied is epic mob/boss to-hit numbers.

Oh, so being totally immune to damage* in the first 14 levels (1-to gh) is working as intended, am I right?

*Any decent player (ie, a player that makes an alt) will have so high ac that no mobs can hit him.

[noinfo]

Oh, so being totally immune to damage* in the first 14 levels (1-to gh) is working as intended, am I right?

*Any decent player (ie, a player that makes an alt) will have so high ac that no mobs can hit him.

About as much as player:
Hitting on a 2 or better most of the game
1 Shotting mobs early in game
Melee critting for over 700?

[Absolute-Omniscience]

About as much as player:
Hitting on a 2 or better most of the game
1 Shotting mobs early in game
Melee critting for over 700?

Difference is, I didn't say that those things a good. But you said that the only place that AC ain't working is in epics. But if they were to change it so AC worked in epics, we'd be back to cloth-twf builds with monk splash and 80 ac. Taking 0 damage and soloing the so called "epics".

[Talias006]

Why does AC need changed again? As it stands now the only place AC does NOT work is in epic quests. The only fix that needs applied is epic mob/boss to-hit numbers.

Glancing blows should probably be re-evaluated as well. That system has to be one of the worst systems ever implemented besides the skull system, and the reasoning behind the implementation of both was attrocious.

What's the skull system? Did I overlook something entirely over the last 5-6 years?

[noinfo]

AC is suppossed to reduce hits on your character, but in this day its more or less useless in high-end content for most builds.

So i was thinking - AC should scale at the same pace as To Hit do without making the character totally immune to damage. Since we have glansing blows and automatic hits on high rolls the later part is handled.

So in addition to the effect AC have now we should add the following.

I suggest that each level should have a AC rating baseline, that AC number should give the most defence for the cost involved. The benifit should climb fast to that baseline (AC of character minus the starting 10) and climb slowly after (diminished return for real high AC).

Let AC have a percentage change for a failed To Hit based on current AC, scaled to level.

Ex (the number here are not exact or even reasonable - only for showing a pattern)

Lets assume that we want a miss change of 30% for a 'good' AC for a given level.
[formula for miss/AC point): (baseline AC/10 AC points gives 3% miss change up to baseline +1% above the baseline]

Level 4: AC 30 -> Baseline AC 20 => 2 points AC above 10 gives 3% up to 30 then +1%. So 26 AC have 24% miss, 34AC have 32% miss, 42AC have 36% miss, 50AC have 40% miss, 70AC 50% miss and so on.

Level 14: AC 50 -> baseline AC 40 => 4 points AC above 10 gives 3% up to 30 then +1%. So 26 AC have 12% miss, 34AC have 18% miss, 42AC have 24%, 50AC have 30% miss, 70AC have 35% miss and so on.

Ofc 30% is taken form the air - 20% may be a more reasonable starting number.

Some benifits from this aproach:
No one will want to totally dump AC, getting it up to 'good' will be to benificial.
Feats like Precision can be made usefull if they reduce the miss chance on opponent, say +5 to Hit -10% miss & -5 damage.
Feats like that affect AC & ToHit (mobility/weapon focus/spring attacks) gan be given a set percentage on adding/reducing miss change, say mob +4%, W focus -2 % spring attack -4% etc.

On a side note: If fortification was changed - it could be linked to AC in a simular maner before other bonuses are applied.

Sorry for the long post and hopefully it is is somewhat readable and comprehensible.

Sorry I actually have toons with AC and I definitly do not need any more nerfing along these lines.

1. Grazing hits just need to go. Think of if Barbs/Kensai only grazing mobs on a 2-5 to get how annoying this is.
2. You want some relevance for armour then make heavy armour reduce mobs 2-5 hits grazing and shields add to this.
3. Epic mobs particulary bosses have to have their to hits adjusted, if you want a challenge with them give them fortification debuffs instead of crazy high to hits.

[Scraap]

Sorry I actually have toons with AC and I definitly do not need any more nerfing along these lines.

1. Grazing hits just need to go. Think of if Barbs/Kensai only grazing mobs on a 2-5 to get how annoying this is.
2. You want some relevance for armour then make heavy armour reduce mobs 2-5 hits grazing and shields add to this.
3. Epic mobs particulary bosses have to have their to hits adjusted, if you want a challenge with them give them fortification debuffs instead of crazy high to hits.

It seems when they added that particular bit of code, the intent was to implement something along the lines of a reflex save vs spells (Ie: half damage). Since one of the most broken aspects of the ac system as designed (minus various states which we've all got permanent defenses for) is that you can end up with:

a- a dex/wis toon that shaves off a significant amount of magical damage in addition to a hefty amount of physical
b- a non-dex toon that only shaves off the physical

They could take a look at rolling glancing blows strictly vs armor+protection+natural+alchemical items, dropping dex/wis/dodge bonuses there to represent getting struck, but having something covering the spot struck?

[Syllph]

AC is suppossed to reduce hits on your character, but in this day its more or less useless in high-end content for most builds.

As It stands it does work, and very well I must admit. The single only place where it doesn't work is epic and that's fine with me, if it did work then there would really be a bunch of AC toons and little else. IMO

Lets assume that we want a miss change of 30% for a 'good' AC for a given level.
[formula for miss/AC point): (baseline AC/10 AC points gives 3% miss change up to baseline +1% above the baseline]

I'm not sure what you consider good AC but a 30% miss chance is not good AC to me. When I go for AC the goal is to be hit on a 20. When I tank Sulu I'm getting hit maybe 10 times during the fight. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but it's enough that a Cure Serious Wounds pot self-consumed once maybe twice is enough to keep me going. 30% I wouldn't bother AC tanking as it's just not enough in my opinion.

Ofc 30% is taken form the air - 20% may be a more reasonable starting number.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but 20% miss? That's just blur, not AC. 20% miss chance to me is awful AC.

AC isn't something that you just "get". It's a build (much like stunning, tripping, Holding etc.) You need feats, gear, planning, and patience. You cannot hope to just throw a suit of armor on and get enough AC to be happy. My toon self buffs at 73 (Ranger, Ship, Yugo) Add bard songs and a pali and that number is quite a bit higher. Add Favored enemy AC and it's higher still. Add Recitation and it's even higher. The moral here is AC is not broken but you do need to plan ahead and have gear to do this. With a 73 AC I can tank Sulu (Normal) with 90% miss give or take. On hard I have a bard and it's still close to 90% miss rate. I don't need a dedicated healer on me, I can heal myself. I don't take enough damage to warrant a healer baby-sitting me.

AC is not broken by any means.

[grodon9999]

As It stands it does work, and very well I must admit. The single only place where it doesn't work is epic and that's fine with me, if it did work then there would really be a bunch of AC toons and little else. IMO

Nonsense. There is great value in toons that go full-****** for DPS. People will still continue to play that style, making AC viable in epics just gives us another flavor instead of vanilla.

[wonkey]

I've said it before, but I'm too lazy to find the exact post (one place is in the thread Grodon linked earlier):

I only play 'hardcore' permadeath, so I have yet to get to the point where AC is broken, but I can see based on mechanics how it would be, and from people's posts, it certainly SOUNDS broken. For both players AND monsters. Hitting on a 2 shouldn't be happening either.

The problem, of course, is that using a d20 was never intended to cover the kind of numbers we have, without a DM that can custom create the encounters to match the party. The DMs can't have too low monster to-hit, or high AC builds will be useless. They can't have too high monster AC or some players will just never hit anything. The d20 doesn't give enough range.

I think the simplest solution is to expand the die size of attack rolls. Either via a series of feats at certain levels that are auto-granted (which would be truer to the d20 system), or by automatically updating die size by level. So at level 20, players AND monsters would be rolling a d40 or d50 for attack rolls. This would give a lot more variability to viable AC and attack bonus, so that the devs could set monster to-hit and AC such that anyone can hit sometimes (them and us) and everyone can be missed sometimes (them and us) with how much attack bonus and AC you actually have determining how much you're hitting, and how much you're getting missed.

And to Syllph, OF COURSE a 25% miss chance is good. It's very good. The only thing is, though, currently, to get that, you have to make very big sacrifices that are even more than the benefit. AC is, more or less, an all-or nothing game. You either have a ton, at expense, or what you have is worthless. It's a shame, because you can see from lower levels how AC SHOULD work (well, if you don't twink out your toon to beyond what the devs set for reasonable AC for that level). A big expense still gets you fantastic numbers that make you near-immune to physical damage. A bit of equipment and a bit of build with minor expense gives you some benefit. And your raging barb with no dex in PJs gets nothing.

EDIT: Found a post where I covered this earlier http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...08#post3551708

My opinion is that the OP isn't bad, but that kind of thing already exists in the game (blur, displacement, etc.). That, and a few other things, I think, make it harder than the already monumental task it would be to implement some of the other ideas mentioned in other threads.

Here's my personal favorite (quoted from part of a previous post of mine because I'm lazy):

A. Due to the nature of this game, a very high AC can be reached relatively easily.
B. Due to this being a D&D game, a D20 is used for attack rolls.
C. The higher the AC we are dealing with, the lower 20 is, as a percentage.
D. In order not to make maxed AC builds nigh invincible, the DMs have to scale monster to-hit to hit max AC.
E. In order that players without max attack bonus can hit ANYTHING, DMs have to scale monster AC to relatively low to-hit.
F. Without serious sacrifices that go beyond build decisions to simply gimping most everything else, getting within 20 AC of max AC is next to, if not absolutely, impossible.
G. For most players and monsters, therefore, AC is useless, and most players and monsters will hit just each other on a 2.
H. AC, which adds another element to the game, is largely irrelevant.

These are the realities of the brokenness of AC. The trick is to find a solution that is not too hard to implement, and won't cause nerd rage of epic proportions.

My personal favorite, for ease (relative term) of implementation, is to scale the die roll size (eg, from a D20 to a D30 at some point) as levels increase. In order to anger purists less than the inevitable storm, this can be done by granting all players and monsters feats that do this at certain levels (like heroic durability given to all players at level 1), in order to give a veneer of following the rules. This would accomplish the same thing. It would allow builds to not gimp themselves in other areas without falling off the dice. For example, if a D50 was used at max level, the devs could, say, scale the attack bonus to 5 points below max AC, so that max AC would be missed on anything but a 46-50. A build with AC 40 points below max would still get something, but a lot less.

Of course, making AC effective, for both players and monsters, would have to be balanced by such things as reducing healing effectiveness and adjusting attack rolls, which would cause a furor, but I think it would be a huge benefit.

[Bodic]

The only problem with AC is the Grazing Hit if the mob has an attack roll within 20 of your AC you get hit, and the scaling of the Mobs Grazing HIt endgame is hugh

Example take a lvl 20 with above a 50 AC and run thru an Elite Newbie Island quest you will get Grazing hits which should be impossible.

[grodon9999]

The only problem with AC is the Grazing Hit if the mob has an attack roll within 20 of your AC you get hit, and the scaling of the Mobs Grazing HIt endgame is hugh

Example take a lvl 20 with above a 50 AC and run thru an Elite Newbie Island quest you will get Grazing hits which should be impossible.

Very good point, maybe should be scaled so that instead of getting crazed on a 15 you'd get crazed if you come within 5 of hitting?

[Ugumagre]

We could change, this, that, and at the end we could change the name to Rune Quest

Cammon, RPG games for PC are very limited. We should accept that.
I think you should have fun with the rules as they are. A lot of the problems with AC can be solved with damage reduction or whatever. And if there is someone that likes to make the quest 1000 times, well, for that kind of person there is .... what should I say?

[wonkey]

The problem is not specifically the limitedness of computer RPG games. The issue is the limit of a d20 for a game with the kinds of numbers we see (see my post above).
Expanding the die size is a relatively minor house rule (and apparently is already done in Epics, I've heard), and would fix the issue (along with a rebalancing of monster to-hit and AC numbers).

Adding DR isn't fixing AC. It's giving up and throwing out the mechanic for something else. It's a shame, because we see from low levels the synergy of both systems in place. Going one way or the other (or both) is different.

[donfilibuster]

Kobold can't take it anymore! :P

AC is a part of your character customization, if you merge it with DR or such you just lose options.

People will complain about grazing hits, etc. because of the inflation scaling that made this problem happened on the first place.
And then we got nerfs to cover up, fixes to the fixes. Isn't out of the line to remind people why things are like they are now.
How can one ask to boost AC without knowing that AC is low because monster hits have been upped?

But AC is not meant to be useless either, just gotta make sure it gets done right.

First, DDO as a MMO makes the 'tank' be the only build that can achieve high AC.
This is not a good thing, D&D classes are more versatile when it comes to defenses and powers.
The party can metagame and rely on a tank but in general no one should be forced to be top AC for AC to be useful.

Second, with the D&D classes being versatile comes a wider set of AC options.
There's a lot of AC spells that are not in DDO and a few feats for melees, etc.
So while not all of these are in the core, i see no need to reinvent the wheel.

Third, the race of players vs. monster buffs is unsustainable in the long run.
So much tweaking is not healthy. We see nerfs like the twf nerf and the epic nerf because of this.

So there's room for improvement other than just upping the bonuses to make poorly made things look usable.
The same goes for weapons, since to-hit is the other side of the coin for AC, but that'd be off topic.

[Chai]

The OP outlined basically how other MMOs do it where armor has a miss chance factor and a damage mitigation factor. EQ and WOW already smack of this mechanic.

[Raithe]

As It stands it does work, and very well I must admit. The single only place where it doesn't work is epic and that's fine with me, if it did work then there would really be a bunch of AC toons and little else. IMO

Many casters ignore AC, because it is simply mostly unnecessary if you plan on cc-ing or ranging. Not all characters would choose to maximize their AC at any cost. AC doesn't work at all like it should, and the reason is ridiculous to-hit values on mobs which seem to largely have been created to balance the horrid itemization. Some mobs should be very dangerous to melee attack (giants, iron golems, dragons, etc). Standard oppoonent melee and specialists should find great difficulty in hitting the heroes of Stormreach who are well-armored with melee and missile attacks.

It's quite hilarious, because my "tanks" are actually my specialists and casters that can cast stoneskin and displacement on themselves. My bard can solo any red-named in the game with melee, and that includes a few epic rednames I've tinkered with (though it did get rather expensive mana-wise). I would never come close to soloing an at-level rednamed with melee on my fighter.

I'm not sure what you consider good AC but a 30% miss chance is not good AC to me.

This. The object should be to allow a melee at level to avoid a very large amount of damage if they choose appropriate targets. Take VoN 3, as an example. You can have uber AC in that quest but will likely die several times if you don't attack the right targets first and use some tactics. Melee should be allowed to protect lesser-armored party members instead of the other way around. The current design simply makes it unnecessary and often undesirable to even bring melee for most quests in the game.

Note that the itemization should have been largely oriented around making a caster choose between AC and being an uber-powerful cannon made of glass.

AC isn't something that you just "get". It's a build (much like stunning, tripping, Holding etc.) You need feats, gear, planning, and patience.

Na it's mostly gear and broken class designs. If my fighter with a 24 dex switched all his enhancements to AC boosting enhancements, threw on Epic Cavalry Plate (which would nullify his evasion feat and is "epic" gear anyway), activated his combat expertise (he has dodge for spring attack too) and quaffed a +4 barkskin potion, he would top out in the mid-60s for AC. Possibly 70 with a fighter AC boost for 20 seconds. He has chaosgarde bracers, dragontouched armor with dodge bonuses on it, and eldritch rituals on everything he owns. It simply doesn't provide enough benefit for him to make the sacrifices, at all.

I suspect your ranger has a level of monk to achieve the AC you are talking about.

AC is not broken by any means.

AC is ridiculously broken, and it does need fixed. But not like this. I would actually support a simple DR system for armor and evasion chances for dexterity.