A possible fix to AC

[curboUS]

AC is suppossed to reduce hits on your character, but in this day its more or less useless in high-end content for most builds.

So i was thinking - AC should scale at the same pace as To Hit do without making the character totally immune to damage. Since we have glansing blows and automatic hits on high rolls the later part is handled.

So in addition to the effect AC have now we should add the following.

I suggest that each level should have a AC rating baseline, that AC number should give the most defence for the cost involved. The benifit should climb fast to that baseline (AC of character minus the starting 10) and climb slowly after (diminished return for real high AC).

Let AC have a percentage change for a failed To Hit based on current AC, scaled to level.

Ex (the number here are not exact or even reasonable - only for showing a pattern)

Lets assume that we want a miss change of 30% for a 'good' AC for a given level.
[formula for miss/AC point): (baseline AC/10 AC points gives 3% miss change up to baseline +1% above the baseline]

Level 4: AC 30 -> Baseline AC 20 => 2 points AC above 10 gives 3% up to 30 then +1%. So 26 AC have 24% miss, 34AC have 32% miss, 42AC have 36% miss, 50AC have 40% miss, 70AC 50% miss and so on.

Level 14: AC 50 -> baseline AC 40 => 4 points AC above 10 gives 3% up to 30 then +1%. So 26 AC have 12% miss, 34AC have 18% miss, 42AC have 24%, 50AC have 30% miss, 70AC have 35% miss and so on.

Ofc 30% is taken form the air - 20% may be a more reasonable starting number.

Some benifits from this aproach:
No one will want to totally dump AC, getting it up to 'good' will be to benificial.
Feats like Precision can be made usefull if they reduce the miss chance on opponent, say +5 to Hit -10% miss & -5 damage.
Feats like that affect AC & ToHit (mobility/weapon focus/spring attacks) gan be given a set percentage on adding/reducing miss change, say mob +4%, W focus -2 % spring attack -4% etc.

On a side note: If fortification was changed - it could be linked to AC in a simular maner before other bonuses are applied.

Sorry for the long post and hopefully it is is somewhat readable and comprehensible.

[Talias006]

Readable? Check.
Comprehensible? Check.

Needed? TBD, but for arguments sake, I'd rather they not fix AC to represent this idea. Not that it's a bad idea, just that it takes AC into a direction that's neither needed nor warranted. I mean, it sounds great if it were pitched for a different game, but I like the way AC is formulated now. Oh, and I have to ask, how likely is that 70 AC at level 4 going to be? AC is just half of the picture, the other half is mobs to-hit inflation, imo.

/not signed

[Thucydides04]

Why does AC need changed again? As it stands now the only place AC does NOT work is in epic quests. The only fix that needs applied is epic mob/boss to-hit numbers.

Glancing blows should probably be re-evaluated as well. That system has to be one of the worst systems ever implemented besides the skull system, and the reasoning behind the implementation of both was attrocious.

[noinfo]

AC is suppossed to reduce hits on your character, but in this day its more or less useless in high-end content for most builds.

So i was thinking - AC should scale at the same pace as To Hit do without making the character totally immune to damage. Since we have glansing blows and automatic hits on high rolls the later part is handled.

So in addition to the effect AC have now we should add the following.

I suggest that each level should have a AC rating baseline, that AC number should give the most defence for the cost involved. The benifit should climb fast to that baseline (AC of character minus the starting 10) and climb slowly after (diminished return for real high AC).

Let AC have a percentage change for a failed To Hit based on current AC, scaled to level.

Ex (the number here are not exact or even reasonable - only for showing a pattern)

Lets assume that we want a miss change of 30% for a 'good' AC for a given level.
[formula for miss/AC point): (baseline AC/10 AC points gives 3% miss change up to baseline +1% above the baseline]

Level 4: AC 30 -> Baseline AC 20 => 2 points AC above 10 gives 3% up to 30 then +1%. So 26 AC have 24% miss, 34AC have 32% miss, 42AC have 36% miss, 50AC have 40% miss, 70AC 50% miss and so on.

Level 14: AC 50 -> baseline AC 40 => 4 points AC above 10 gives 3% up to 30 then +1%. So 26 AC have 12% miss, 34AC have 18% miss, 42AC have 24%, 50AC have 30% miss, 70AC have 35% miss and so on.

Ofc 30% is taken form the air - 20% may be a more reasonable starting number.

Some benifits from this aproach:
No one will want to totally dump AC, getting it up to 'good' will be to benificial.
Feats like Precision can be made usefull if they reduce the miss chance on opponent, say +5 to Hit -10% miss & -5 damage.
Feats like that affect AC & ToHit (mobility/weapon focus/spring attacks) gan be given a set percentage on adding/reducing miss change, say mob +4%, W focus -2 % spring attack -4% etc.

On a side note: If fortification was changed - it could be linked to AC in a simular maner before other bonuses are applied.

Sorry for the long post and hopefully it is is somewhat readable and comprehensible.

Sorry I actually have toons with AC and I definitly do not need any more nerfing along these lines.

1. Grazing hits just need to go. Think of if Barbs/Kensai only grazing mobs on a 2-5 to get how annoying this is.
2. You want some relevance for armour then make heavy armour reduce mobs 2-5 hits grazing and shields add to this.
3. Epic mobs particulary bosses have to have their to hits adjusted, if you want a challenge with them give them fortification debuffs instead of crazy high to hits.

[noinfo]

Why does AC need changed again? As it stands now the only place AC does NOT work is in epic quests. The only fix that needs applied is epic mob/boss to-hit numbers.

Glancing blows should probably be re-evaluated as well. That system has to be one of the worst systems ever implemented besides the skull system, and the reasoning behind the implementation of both was attrocious.

If only the Devs would even respond to these requests with any type of comment.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Why does AC need changed again? As it stands now the only place AC does NOT work is in epic quests. The only fix that needs applied is epic mob/boss to-hit numbers.

Oh, so being totally immune to damage* in the first 14 levels (1-to gh) is working as intended, am I right?

*Any decent player (ie, a player that makes an alt) will have so high ac that no mobs can hit him.

[noinfo]

Oh, so being totally immune to damage* in the first 14 levels (1-to gh) is working as intended, am I right?

*Any decent player (ie, a player that makes an alt) will have so high ac that no mobs can hit him.

About as much as player:
Hitting on a 2 or better most of the game
1 Shotting mobs early in game
Melee critting for over 700?

[Talias006]

Why does AC need changed again? As it stands now the only place AC does NOT work is in epic quests. The only fix that needs applied is epic mob/boss to-hit numbers.

Glancing blows should probably be re-evaluated as well. That system has to be one of the worst systems ever implemented besides the skull system, and the reasoning behind the implementation of both was attrocious.

What's the skull system? Did I overlook something entirely over the last 5-6 years?

[Scraap]

Sorry I actually have toons with AC and I definitly do not need any more nerfing along these lines.

1. Grazing hits just need to go. Think of if Barbs/Kensai only grazing mobs on a 2-5 to get how annoying this is.
2. You want some relevance for armour then make heavy armour reduce mobs 2-5 hits grazing and shields add to this.
3. Epic mobs particulary bosses have to have their to hits adjusted, if you want a challenge with them give them fortification debuffs instead of crazy high to hits.

It seems when they added that particular bit of code, the intent was to implement something along the lines of a reflex save vs spells (Ie: half damage). Since one of the most broken aspects of the ac system as designed (minus various states which we've all got permanent defenses for) is that you can end up with:

a- a dex/wis toon that shaves off a significant amount of magical damage in addition to a hefty amount of physical
b- a non-dex toon that only shaves off the physical

They could take a look at rolling glancing blows strictly vs armor+protection+natural+alchemical items, dropping dex/wis/dodge bonuses there to represent getting struck, but having something covering the spot struck?

[Absolute-Omniscience]

About as much as player:
Hitting on a 2 or better most of the game
1 Shotting mobs early in game
Melee critting for over 700?

Difference is, I didn't say that those things a good. But you said that the only place that AC ain't working is in epics. But if they were to change it so AC worked in epics, we'd be back to cloth-twf builds with monk splash and 80 ac. Taking 0 damage and soloing the so called "epics".

[MrWizard]

Difference is, I didn't say that those things a good. But you said that the only place that AC ain't working is in epics. But if they were to change it so AC worked in epics, we'd be back to cloth-twf builds with monk splash and 80 ac. Taking 0 damage and soloing the so called "epics".

instead of just the fvs and sorcs doing it? sounds good to me

[noinfo]

instead of just the fvs and sorcs doing it? sounds good to me

And they will be doing it faster now I would imagine.

[noinfo]

Difference is, I didn't say that those things a good. But you said that the only place that AC ain't working is in epics. But if they were to change it so AC worked in epics, we'd be back to cloth-twf builds with monk splash and 80 ac. Taking 0 damage and soloing the so called "epics".

I always have to laugh at this. 1 in 20 with that damage is never nothing, getting good dex and wis takes a lot of effort and often at the expense of dps. Your way we just have barbs and kensais, lot of fun and diversity that is.

Some people want to be hard to hit or even hit on a 20 the same way as others build to hit on a 2 or better and max dps. So what? You are complaining like this is a bad thing.

There was a brief time where cloth based ac ruled but that was before the nerf to stat damages and now to a degree vorpals. DPS now is going to always be a dominant player and shoud allow for AC to come back into it. You now cant afford not to have good dps along with ac, so let ac mean more again.
No grazing hits
Epic to hit thats reasonable

You want extra challenge? Give epic mobs the ability to bypass some fortification.

[grodon9999]

Difference is, I didn't say that those things a good. But you said that the only place that AC ain't working is in epics. But if they were to change it so AC worked in epics, we'd be back to cloth-twf builds with monk splash and 80 ac. Taking 0 damage and soloing the so called "epics".

As opposed to WF casters soloing everything by masterly exploiting stupid AI?

As a monk-splash with 80 AC, we don't take zero damage anywhere. It mitigates damage but doesn't make you invulnerable.

Having AC not work in end-game leads to one-dimensional toons. More options is BETTER for the game.

The to-hits of Elite Amrath are fine, that's what epics should be maybe a little tougher.

[grodon9999]

There was a brief time where cloth based ac ruled but that was before the nerf to stat damages and now to a degree vorpals. DPS now is going to always be a dominant player and shoud allow for AC to come back into it. You now cant afford not to have good dps along with ac, so let ac mean more again.
No grazing hits
Epic to hit thats reasonable

Exactly, you still need to be able to do some damage on a toon to be useful which means level-up in STR.

I personally have no issue with grazing hits.

Here's my idea to expand the useful range of ACs . . . http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ghlight=simple

[noinfo]

Exactly, you still need to be able to do some damage on a toon to be useful which means level-up in STR.

I personally have no issue with grazing hits.

Here's my idea to expand the useful range of ACs . . . http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ghlight=simple

Probably the only part I really disagree with is grazing hits. The logic behind them is flawed. Taking damage on a 15+ on elite and epic trash is one of the many reasons people just dont bother. It was an abitary rule that was developed back when stat damage was king. As difficulties increase, mobs to hit, damage and hp increase already as do their ac. Would it make sense to nerf pure dps builds to hit to grazing on elite on 2-5? By their logic (original grazing hits) this would let them drop mobs hp so that other melee can contribute more effectively ie those who do not hit on a 2-5.

I do like your proposed alterations to ac range and even something along the lines of the epic minion 1d20 -1d20 would work scaled to level etc with the -dice. If they feel they need to keep grazing in then they should have it so that if you would have been hit without the penalty dice then it is a graze.

This makes it a bonus rather than a penalty.

[grodon9999]

Probably the only part I really disagree with is grazing hits. The logic behind them is flawed. Taking damage on a 15+ on elite and epic trash is one of the many reasons people just dont bother. It was an abitary rule that was developed back when stat damage was king. As difficulties increase, mobs to hit, damage and hp increase already as do their ac. Would it make sense to nerf pure dps builds to hit to grazing on elite on 2-5? By their logic (original grazing hits) this would let them drop mobs hp so that other melee can contribute more effectively ie those who do not hit on a 2-5.

I do like your proposed alterations to ac range and even something along the lines of the epic minion 1d20 -1d20 would work scaled to level etc with the -dice. If they feel they need to keep grazing in then they should have it so that if you would have been hit without the penalty dice then it is a graze.

This makes it a bonus rather than a penalty.

You still get missed 75% of the time even if you get grazed on a 15, that is SIGNIFICANT damage mitigation and well worth the bother if you can get to those numbers. My 85 AC TWFing stalwart fighter gets hit a hell of a lot less than a barb on Elite Horoth, getting hit on a 15 is a hell of a lot better than getting hit on a 1.

AC shouldn't make you invulnerable, it's should mitigate damage which is why grazes don't offend me. I don't want to play the game in god-mode but I want MORE VIABLE OPTIONS than just a ton of HP for defense. Maintaining the usefulness of AC throughout the game does this.

Then again I've only been playing since F2P was released and grazes have always been a part of the DDO I play.

[noinfo]

You still get missed 75% of the time even if you get grazed on a 15, that is SIGNIFICANT damage mitigation and well worth the bother if you can get to those numbers. My 85 AC TWFing stalwart fighter gets hit a hell of a lot less than a barb on Elite Horoth, getting hit on a 15 is a hell of a lot better than getting hit on a 1.

AC shouldn't make you invulnerable, it's should mitigate damage which is why grazes don't offend me. I don't want to play the game in god-mode but I want MORE VIABLE OPTIONS than just a ton of HP for defense. Maintaining the usefulness of AC throughout the game does this.

Then again I've only been playing since F2P was released and grazes have always been a part of the DDO I play.

I have seen both and while no one can argue that hit on 15+ is better than 2+ the logic behind getting hit on a 15+ instead of 20 is abitary and flawed.

Ac has never made people immune to damage. God mode was WOP with AC. God mode is SF pots and an ESOS (and I have these)

There are so many other way grazing could be used. You want a AC toon to be more vulnerable? Then variable bonuses to combat such as flanking etc may give grazing based on their bonus ie +2 flanking can graz on a 18,19 etc, but the mob you are facing does not. Undefendable graze of 15+ is what I object too most. In the example I gave those bonuses can be mitigated by effective playstyle and S/B user could be given bonuses to reduce the graze number, different mobs could have different bonuses and ways of achieving this. But the no way to avoid being hit on a 15+ regardless of play style? no thanks.

[Syllph]

AC is suppossed to reduce hits on your character, but in this day its more or less useless in high-end content for most builds.

As It stands it does work, and very well I must admit. The single only place where it doesn't work is epic and that's fine with me, if it did work then there would really be a bunch of AC toons and little else. IMO

Lets assume that we want a miss change of 30% for a 'good' AC for a given level.
[formula for miss/AC point): (baseline AC/10 AC points gives 3% miss change up to baseline +1% above the baseline]

I'm not sure what you consider good AC but a 30% miss chance is not good AC to me. When I go for AC the goal is to be hit on a 20. When I tank Sulu I'm getting hit maybe 10 times during the fight. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but it's enough that a Cure Serious Wounds pot self-consumed once maybe twice is enough to keep me going. 30% I wouldn't bother AC tanking as it's just not enough in my opinion.

Ofc 30% is taken form the air - 20% may be a more reasonable starting number.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but 20% miss? That's just blur, not AC. 20% miss chance to me is awful AC.

AC isn't something that you just "get". It's a build (much like stunning, tripping, Holding etc.) You need feats, gear, planning, and patience. You cannot hope to just throw a suit of armor on and get enough AC to be happy. My toon self buffs at 73 (Ranger, Ship, Yugo) Add bard songs and a pali and that number is quite a bit higher. Add Favored enemy AC and it's higher still. Add Recitation and it's even higher. The moral here is AC is not broken but you do need to plan ahead and have gear to do this. With a 73 AC I can tank Sulu (Normal) with 90% miss give or take. On hard I have a bard and it's still close to 90% miss rate. I don't need a dedicated healer on me, I can heal myself. I don't take enough damage to warrant a healer baby-sitting me.

AC is not broken by any means.

[grodon9999]

As It stands it does work, and very well I must admit. The single only place where it doesn't work is epic and that's fine with me, if it did work then there would really be a bunch of AC toons and little else. IMO

Nonsense. There is great value in toons that go full-****** for DPS. People will still continue to play that style, making AC viable in epics just gives us another flavor instead of vanilla.