Nerf Stick

[Zigana]

Not resorting to name calling, however.... for all you people who like Kiters in TOD.... well... your going to need to work out a new tactic. coz by the time your kiters makes it half way round the room, the shadows are going to eat you all when the non extended firewall drops....... doom and gloom , maybe.... but then hey.... tod just got a whole lot harder

Meh, most ToD groups I run with have 2 kiters. Just send the first out like normal, and the second out when the first is half way around. Shouldn't be that much more difficult to work around it. And probably reduce half the wipes that normally happen when the kiter drops, as there's still a kiter going and keeping the mobs off the party and time to get the 2nd one back up and back on track. I'm looking forward to trying this tactic out actually.

[Gremmlynn]

Umm While I am wrong so are you: It is not 28 nor it is 12, it's 18.

2 + 6 + 10 = 18

=1879048203&x=77&y=14]Empower Spell

=1879048203&x=46&y=10]Maxmize Spell

I give you an A for math...


...but an F for chart reading.

The numbers 2, 6 and 10 are the required level to get the enhancement. Look 3 columns to the right and you will see the AP costs are indeed 2, 4 and 6 for a total of 12 AP.



My observations on this thread. It seems most of the doomsayers, from the examples they give, see this terrible nerf coming in their ability to quickly and easily solo content. My question is; shouldn't content be kind of difficult to solo, else what use for groups?

From first glance I like the changes. This just may take the sour taste out of my mouth that the shallowness of arcane play style has left.

[Ungood]

My observations on this thread. It seems most of the doomsayers, from the examples they give, see this terrible nerf coming in their ability to quickly and easily solo content. My question is; shouldn't content be kind of difficult to solo, else what use for groups?

Well, after seeing FW on test, it seems to function almost the same, so, for most stuff I would solo with FW and do the whole "Dance and Burn", nothing integrally changes, for me at least, maybe now I need to add displacement to my buff list.

But as for content to be soloable? That totally depends on the content to be honest. Monks. Rogues, Divines, and Arcanes constantly solo adventures, if you look around this forum, you will see many threads on it, challenges and the like. In many cases it is a mark of skill and ability to be able to solo a zone. This will not change any of that beyond just making it a little harder for Arcanes (and Divines) to keep up with Monks and Rogues.

And the end result is not solo runs get hurt, but that even in group situations (for anyone that has hunted with an arcne, you know to fight in the fire walls) this hurts the overall cost to damage ratio. This solo, or a group, things will go slower, and cost more for an arcane. Meh. You get the idea.

From first glance I like the changes. This just may take the sour taste out of my mouth that the shallowness of arcane play style has left.

With the change to this, amping up STS, with lower spell costs, this also damages the viability of max and extend, (even with a reduction to 16 SP for Max) it still does not add out well. So, I would say the largest issue is not "OMG FW does a little less damage" because it is just 10 SP more, but the bigger issue is.

With this forced change in tactic, we now have to revamp our builds to accommodate these changes*.

Which can become a very costly change (which may require the changing of several feat), and these costs and the effort associated with them, might make some truly question if it is worth the effort to accommodate and revamp their build, shelf their build, TR into something else, or maybe just better off doing something else entirely, like say, dusting off that monk.

* To be honest I never knew FW was broken, or needed to be "fixed". It was just part of the game to me when I started playing an Arcane. So building around this iconic spell I figured was the right thing to do.

[pharky]

life is about changes, humans are good at adapting.

in fact, some humans like to adapt to changes.

sadly, you don't belong to that group.

[FooWonk]

Umm While I am wrong so are you: It is not 28 nor it is 12, it's 18.
2 + 6 + 10 = 18

The numbers you're citing are from the level available column. The AP costs are last column and are 2, 4, 6.

[FooWonk]

/not signed

My main character is a melee oriented favored soul. Knowing that, you'd think I'd be most excited about the AoV PrE. Yeah, that's nice, but I'm really excited to attempt yet again an arcane character.

I lost count of the arcane characters I've retired at level 9 and 10.

Why end an adventurers life so early? My warforge sorcerer was looking for more excitement and decided to become a pastry chef. The drow enchantress took up knitting for the variety it brought to her life. She now travels Xen'drik teach master classes. The halfling wizard couldn't find anyone to take him seriously and uses the platinum he looted to keep himself very, very inebriated at all times.

After Delera's, groups demand arcane caster be 1-dimensional. And I can only handle so many exchanges like.

...

[Party]: Party Leader: FW, plz!
[Party]: Drow enchantress: I am cc specced...I don't cast fw.
[Party]: Party Leader: FW, NOW!

...

[Party]: Random Barbarian: Haste. Why can't you keep haste up you stupid #@$!@# halfling!!!
[In Audio]: Random Barbarian: You @#$#$%@#$%!!!!

...

[Combat]: You cast firewall.
[Combat]: You cast firewall.
[Party]: Confused Cleric: RAGE?!?
[Party]: Warforged Sorcerer: ***! Are you serious?
[Combat]: You deal 500 fire damage to Boss.
[Combat]: You killed Boss.
[Party]: Confused Cleric: We need rage next time!

...

Before I call it quits.

With U9, I have no doubts Wizards will be more diverse and hold my attention well.

Sorcerers...not so much. But if anyone is willing to accept a 1-dimensional existence for the sake of power, it'd be a sorcerer (until warlocks come to DDO). That said, I will still bend over backward to become friends with a Water Savant just for Epic VoN6!

[Drakos]

/not signed

[Drakos]

well for those of you who /not signed, you obviously dont play much, either that or you play big barbs who it doesnt affect, but i tell you this, BARB NERF is coming bud, just like those nerfers want you to think your safe, then bamn, youll be whining and no one will care , coz you were warned...

You have been warned!

AND MASS HOLD = NO AUTO CRIT!!!!!!!! (another nerf coming soon)

/Sorry to dissapoint you but I don't play Big Barbs, and I do have a caster I was specing for Firewall, but I still agree with the spell changes they are implementing.

Looking at the spell changes involved here, the intent is obvious. They are trying to nerf kiting with the long duration AoE spells. This is a highly abused tactic, why, because it gives more bang for the buck so to speak for your SP expenditure. They buffed the direct damage and instant AoE spells to encurage a shift in spell caster tactics.

[Ungood]

...

[Party]: Party Leader: FW, plz!
[Party]: Drow enchantress: I am cc specced...I don't cast fw.
[Party]: Party Leader: FW, NOW!

...

[Party]: Random Barbarian: Haste. Why can't you keep haste up you stupid #@$!@# halfling!!!
[In Audio]: Random Barbarian: You @#$#$%@#$%!!!!

...

[Combat]: You cast firewall.
[Combat]: You cast firewall.
[Party]: Confused Cleric: RAGE?!?
[Party]: Warforged Sorcerer: ***! Are you serious?
[Combat]: You deal 500 fire damage to Boss.
[Combat]: You killed Boss.
[Party]: Confused Cleric: We need rage next time!

...

Wow, where do you find these pugs?

The cleric asked for Rage? ..Really? ... Really?

On the final CC spec part, But to be fair, CC spec or not, you should be able to cast a Fire wall ya know. That is just weak not taking or using a spell simply because you did not spec it, that is as weak as saying "I'm evocation spec I don't cast ottos, wail, or anything that is not an evocation spell" hamstringing yourself like that, you deserve to be chastised.

[ubernuber1254]

No, mass holds wont give auto crit... they give +50% increase to ALL incoming damage. Including that from spells. FW nerf, so what? as said before wizards can get every spell ingame (theoretically) and sorcerers, while not as big as a selection, have alot of spells to use from and if you depend on FW at lvl 20 for ALL of your DPS you should considering TRing and fast.

[FooWonk]

Wow, where do you find these pugs?

The cleric asked for Rage? ..Really? ... Really?

On the final CC spec part, But to be fair, CC spec or not, you should be able to cast a Fire wall ya know. That is just weak not taking or using a spell simply because you did not spec it, that is as weak as saying "I'm evocation spec I don't cast ottos, wail, or anything that is not an evocation spell" hamstringing yourself like that, you deserve to be chastised.

Not using a spell should not mean you are hamstrung.

If you need to deal with undead, sure wall of fire works...but so does halt undead and command undead. Suggestions, mass suggestion, domination, charm & mass charm deal more damage over a longer period of time than wall of fire. Don't be an lazy punk, learn some strategies other than drop 100 firewalls in this room then talk to that guy.

That said, I'd not take an enchanter without firewall on a ToD run unless I had a really good plan for kiting the shadows or the party didn't expect the me to kite. But the majority of situations groups demand an arcane use FW, it is because the group don't know that there are other viable casting strategies that are often more effective than spamming firewall.

[Ungood]

Not using a spell should not mean you are hamstrung.

If you need to deal with undead, sure wall of fire works...but so does halt undead and command undead. Suggestions, mass suggestion, domination, charm & mass charm deal more damage over a longer period of time than wall of fire.

Don't be an lazy punk, learn some strategies other than drop 100 firewalls in this room then talk to that guy.

Umm, No they don't, and yes, you are hamstring yourself.

Charm, Command, Halt, Hold, in conjunction with FW does wonders however. And even with U9, will be a nice combo.

Depending on one type of spell, IE: Saying all you do is CC, is a weak tactic. Like someone telling me they are pale master and thus only cast death spells. Refusing to use a spell that does top notch damage or fits the situation, or even is a spell that the rest of the group knows how to work with, because you think it is too mainstream makes you an inferior group mate not a uniquely better one. Make no mistake, being a hipster caster, might sound cool, but, I can see why your group got annoyed with you quickly if that was the song and dance number you were doing to otto's disco ball.

Also, there is a better then good chance that the other members of your party had been trained by Arcane's before you to know how to fight in the fire walls, to know how to gather for buffs like haste and rage, which I might add, properly training your melee wait for buffs and fight in the fire walls, is a sometimes long, tedious, and even painful, task.

Thanks for ruining all our hard work!

That said, I'd not take an enchanter without firewall on a ToD run unless I had a really good plan for kiting the shadows or the party didn't expect the me to kite. But the majority of situations groups demand an arcane use FW, it is because the group don't know that there are other viable casting strategies that are often more effective than spamming firewall.

Normally on most runs, I use the spells I think are the best, I won't refuse to use a spell I believe will work, and I won't go over board on a spell unless I know it is the ideal spell for the situation.

As a fellow arcane, I would look at you funny, until you had proven yourself. The reality is, I have had the joy of hunting with a very well played CC arcane, who was kind enough to give me build and tactic advice which I am happy for.

I would like to note well played, is the key word here. Personally, since you are extolling that a CC arcane is a superior build, or that they spells they are are better I would think you were trying to compensate for something, lack of skill would be my first instinct.

In this regard, just because you say you are CC, does not mean you are good with it, or that every situation calls for the same mentality. A well played wizard, adapts to what the situation needs, using the best spell combos for the situation. An exceptional arcane, adapts to what the party needs from them, and while not every group may know what they need, they have been given an idea of what they should minimally expect, and if this is not met, disenchantment sets in quickly.

From what I have seen, these changes in U9, will not change the issues you have with playing an arcane in a group.

Your issue seems to be how you approach grouping, not how you play your arcane.

[FooWonk]

Thanks for ruining all our hard work!
<snip />

I would like to note well played, is the key word here. Personally, since you are extolling that a CC arcane is a superior build, or that they spells they are are better I would think you were trying to compensate for something, lack of skill would be my first instinct.

First:
You are very welcome. Players shouldn't have an expectation of what tactic is best for all Arcane casters.

Second:
The original situations mentioned where all fictitious encounters written specifically to make a point with a bit of humor. You seem to be the only one on this forum with both no sense of humor and a good amount of time to respond.

Third:
Here's a hypothetical level 7 wizard.

Feats: Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Heighten, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augmented Summoning.

Enhancements: Archmage I, Archmage: Enchanter
And NO Elemental line enhancements

Items: +1 Conjuration Scepter (which gives +1 DC to enchantment and conjuration)

This caster knows all spells and is willing to cast any of them. In what circumstances, aside from expecting undead, would you prepare wall of fire? Do you think it would it be more effective than Charm Monster at Red Willow?

========

Wall of Fire is indeed a good tool...especially for kiting. But it is not the only tool, nor should it be the BEST tool. U9 is balancing it with the other tools, which is a GOOD thing. Before U9, you have to train everyone to expect firewall and that's it. BORING! After U9, the other tactics and techniques - some of which are vastly superior to using a firewall - will get used. After U9, it will be obviously inferior technique to use firewall in many cases where it simply worked because it was an unbalanced spell.

[FooWonk]

Players shouldn't have an expectation of what tactic is best for all Arcane casters.

Players do not have expectations of the exact tactic a melee characters MUST use. Melee characters are expected to know what will maximize their own DPS in a given situation and when to maximize and when to hold back; tanks, how best to hold mob aggro. And their tactics will vary by build, equipment and play style.

Unlike arcane casters, melee characters are rarely griefed by party members for unconventional methods unless those methods are demonstrably ineffective.

[Ungood]

The original situations mentioned where all fictitious encounters written specifically to make a point with a bit of humor. You seem to be the only one on this forum with both no sense of humor and a good amount of time to respond.

That was what passes as humor to you?

Well it was not actually funny, and your delivery was just poor, just thought I should let you know.

In future you might want to fix those two issues.

[Ungood]

Here's a hypothetical level 7 wizard.

Feats: Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Heighten, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augmented Summoning.

Enhancements: Archmage I, Archmage: Enchanter
And NO Elemental line enhancements

Items: +1 Conjuration Scepter (which gives +1 DC to enchantment and conjuration)

Re-roll this. Honestly, this is better off dead.

I get the idea here is you are trying to build a solo pet/charm arcane type build. Now, maybe if you enjoy a slow solo walk of a zone, and like to take your time waiting for mobs to slowly kill each other, then this is the build for you. And even then, this is a frail weak build. Even being a War Forged would not save this, at this point.

But if this is your idea of a level 7 grouping wizard, yah, you're doing it wrong.

And while that is harsh, I made the same type of mistakes, and I got chastised for it, the division between you and I, is I welcomed the info people passed to me, and I have been trying to apply it to build a better arcane, as opposed to thinking I know everything. Your haughty tone makes you come across as thinking you have it all figured out, and this level 7 is a noob build shows me your blowing smoke. yes, you are doing it wrong, and casting the wrong spells, and thus making it easier for any arcane that follows you. Thanks!

The reality is, You should have taken Toughness, for survivability, as even an arcane is not allowed to be that squishy, and taking it at the start is always better to make the game easy at the early levels. If you planned to group at all, Mental Toughness would have been a good choice for the extra spell points to allow you more SP to accommodate for random situations.

Since you did not tell me the stats or what other gear, I'll tell you what, I'll give you an extra gimp-cookie, if you tanked the Str and Con in favor of maxing Int and Cha. and Double Extra Bonus points if you did not have any type of lore item or potency in with your gear because you did not plan on casting offensive spells.

[FooWonk]

Paraphrase of

blah blah blah...must use firewall or you gimp...blah blah blah

It was all put down hypothetically and you didn't answer the question. What's a better spell in most cases for this build Wall of Fire or Charm Monster? The fact that you honestly believe this build is better off re-rolled does nothing but scream, "FIREWALL IS UNBALANCED!".

All I am saying is that an arcane build SHOULD NOT be gimped for not using one specific spell.

And to set it straight...I've played a lot of various arcanes and I have always had Wall of Fire on my spell list. It is far more powerful than any other spell until end game...and even at end game it has its uses. But if a situation can be handled in a way that doesn't involve spamming firewalls then don't chastise the player for using a different tactic.

[WolfHealr]

Here's a hypothetical level 7 wizard.

Feats: Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Heighten, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augmented Summoning.

Enhancements: Archmage I, Archmage: Enchanter

Honest question here - for Archmage I, don't you have to have Mental Toughness? Or am I missing something?

[Ungood]

Honest question here - for Archmage I, don't you have to have Mental Toughness? Or am I missing something?

You did not miss anything, Archmage I requires Mental Toughness.

It seems FooWonk might be trolling.

[FooWonk]

You did not miss anything, Archmage I requires Mental Toughness.

Swap sf: conjuration for mental toughness...or the hypothetical character is human and used their extra feat for mental toughness. IT DOES NOT MATTER!

The hypothetical character is just an example of a character that would be phenomenal at level crowd control elite mobs.

But Ungood made my point better than I ever could of. As things are in Live, such a character is a useless gimp that is better of re-rolled. Because Wall of Fire is so much better than any other spell that without it you will be a detriment to your party.

IMO, that is boring.

If you want to play a game that enforces play styles with a strict build tree, go play WoW. I'd rather play a game that allows unique & nuanced builds and blurs the lines of MMORPG play styles.

It seems FooWonk might be trolling.

Sigh. Is it not possible that I was writing something down quickly for the sake of a hypothetical situation and missed a detail? Honestly, from my perspective, you are the one trolling Ungood. You have only made the DDO equivalent of grammar attacks on my posts.