Nerf Stick

[shadowhop]

Which is the whole point of this thread. It's a complaint about caster nerfs, firewall being the main target. Wail is another victim, as is mass hold. All of these changes target arcane ability to neutralize large groups of threat. Firewall guarantees death at lower levels unlike AoE blasts, Wail at higher levels, Mass Hold at epic. The devs aren't just offering more options in the form of a marginal increase in single target spell cost effectiveness, they're reducing the effectiveness of what does work. That leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Its funny to see you look at everything separate and not see the complete picture. While wail has a longer cooldown symbol of death is a spell that they fixed and also (just one target) power word kill will be useful now.

While you do not autocrit with mass hold anymore you and your party do 50 % extra damage even if you crit when they are holded.

But my guess is you are talking about TR'ing solo through the game as fast as you can and are not interested in a change of play style.

[Cyr]

Would it be less effective now, against epic mobs? Probably.
Will it be less effective when they halve the hp of epic mobs? No, sorcerers will be incredibly overpowered, and you'll have to eat your own words.

I suggest that you find a corner to sit in till U9 gets here, and wait with your judgements till then.

As a whole the changes are a net buff to sorcs. That much should be clear to most players, but without seeing the rest of the changes it is far too soon to say that this will be a buff to wizards and not a nerf overall.

Against wizard so far...

* Archmage PrE does not have the big name boosted spells in their lists and take away from the SP pool. If blasting is the name of the game SP pool will matter.
* Death effects overall are being nerfed in non epic content where it matters...the cooldown. This hurts a PM's stock in leveling content (a vast majority of the game).
* The most mana efficient spell for damage is getting a big nerf. This will hurt wizards in non-epic content the most.
* Dramaticly different damage profile versus a sorc. For example, a sixth level fire savant is casting fire spells at 8th level compared to a 6th level evoker archmage. For a fireball that is 1/3 more damage which is pretty impressive. The disadvantage for wizards in this respect does not go away. In fact, an evoker wizard will remain at a much lower SP pool, slower casting time, slower cool down time, and similar damage spread per cast to a savant at cap.
* Higher Mob Saves in epic. This makes any spell with a saving throw less effective in epic. Certainly a net negative, but wizards suffer less from this then sorcs so a competitive advantage is given to wizards here.

In the wizards plus...

* Lower cost on some spells. Certainly important for a wizard. Is it reasonable to assume that people will be using these spells non empowered and maximized though...not really. So the spell point saving can not be considered as a percentage and instead should be considered as a strict reduction in cost per casting. This will increase effect SP on a wizard by somewhere between 100 - 200 SP IF THEY NEVER CAST FIREWALL PREVIOUSLY. If they had relied on firewall then this difference is non existant or negative. All together certainly a plus though.
* New dps on some spells. Lightning bolt and melf's for example got some buff's making them much more viable. This certainly helps wizards, but less then it helps Sorcs if the spells in question are elemental based.
* Better utility for some spells. Longer ranges, short term save debuffs, and removal of HD/HP caps all weigh in as a plus. The wizards ability to swap spells and larger number of memorized spells weighs in their favor in this regard over sorc.
* Death effects work in EPICS. A very big plus for wizards with PM being a PrE this favors wizards more then sorcs.
* Reduced HP of mobs in EPICS. Certainly makes everyone more powerful.

It's very hard to see how this all will pan out. Some things that could be game changers include even more buffs to elemental damage based spells or new very effective negative energy arcane spells.

[Ungood]

Lets look at those numbers for a second.
Since when does empower cost 28 points to max?
2+4+6=12

12+12=24
24= the cost of maxing empower, and maxing maximize.

Not saying that'll it work anyways, just saying that your numbers are WAY off.

Umm While I am wrong so are you: It is not 28 nor it is 12, it's 18.

2 + 6 + 10 = 18

=1879048203&x=77&y=14]Empower Spell

=1879048203&x=46&y=10]Maxmize Spell

So, it's 18 + 18 = 36.

As for my math, the only thing now, you have 20 extra points to spend, well, PRE's will fix that wagon, I would wager, if Lineage Elements didn't already. Assuming you are willing to take the hit to spell penetration and cha. But to each their own on that regard.

As I see it, Basically as a Sorc, you get shoe horned into a specific energy type if you opt to try to play the max/empower game. Might explain the extreme dependency on FW. I will admit, until today, I never really looked too much at it. I speced my Wiz a whole lot different for the sake of versatility.

But, even if I invested in Improved Maximize III and went and go some rare named dropped item from Raid XYZ, I am still better off casting Polar Ray (and the like) twice then using empower/max as casting twice increases my chances of critical hits. Which if I invest those Maximize points into a lineage of elements will happen 9% of them, 18% if I invest in a Lore Item. (or 1 out of 5 will crit, so I am still better off spamming single target spells then trying to max/empower them)

Will this be a good thing. Well a tactical change will happen, that is for sure. Good or bad. I will wait and see. I am not too thrilled to say the least.

However on the good part, the increase cost in Fire Wall, makes it a far better spell to max/empower now, even more so then it was before, as 25 extra points to double the damage of a 45 point spell, add to quite a hefty gain, even if I did not invest a single point to maximizing, I still come out at a 15 point gain, near to a 24 point gain if I Improved Maximize III. Sweet if you ask me, in a trying to find some light in what does not seem to look all that pleasant.

A sorc can, on the other hand, max improved empowering, and use one of the MANY* lesser maximize clickies, and cast the spells at even less cost than the guy before you calculated.

*5 clickies on abbot necky (5*20=120 sec)
*3 clickies on the event dagger (3*20=60)
60+120=180 seconds worth of no-maximize cost.

Doesn't count, as those can be applied now, ergo, no change, just a nerf in this regard.

[Ashbinder]

Its funny to see you look at everything separate and not see the complete picture. While wail has a longer cooldown symbol of death is a spell that they fixed and also (just one target) power word kill will be useful now.

While you do not autocrit with mass hold anymore you and your party do 50 % extra damage even if you crit when they are holded.

But my guess is you are talking about TR'ing solo through the game as fast as you can and are not interested in a change of play style.

Wail = 30 second timer
Symbol of Death = Symbol spell, extremely long timer and locks out other symbol spells (eg. symbol of persuasion) while on timer.
PWK = 300 second timer

Instadeath spells have taken a huge nerf.

Holds could be used by a caster to either melee with dual heavy picks or smack it with a woo-woo stick, neither of which will be effective strategies any more. Instead you pay the full cost of your mass hold for a 50% bonus to spell damage. Unless the mob stays held and it takes you 2 casts instead of 3 with your spell of choice AND that spell cost is the same as your hold, you only break even. Realistically no non-epic mobs have that much HP except for bosses which can't be held.

[zebidos]

I like any change that brings variety to the game, one thing I like about DDO is you can customise your toon, at end levels though there seems to be certain builds that are only viable and only certain weapons and spells, to me that is boring.

Will have to see how the spell and autocrit changes are implemented before passing judgement.

[Postumus]

did you really just try to apply the laws of physics to MAGIC fire?

Awesome!

[kyleann]

I think the Sorceror v. Wiz debate is going to get heated up big time. Like Physics II Enhancement Magical Wall of Fire heated. It seems like the nerfs are going to change the way we play our arcanes. At least with Sorcs we get the addition of the savants to make those spells that weren't nerfed (lightning bolt I'm looking at you!) heightened "for free" via PrEs.

Now, do you think the Ball Lightning or Chain Lightning will receive the Backlash 50% double strike like lightning bolt? Since all the Savants deal with non-force elements doesn't it seem like they should boost Force spells? What about Acid Fog for an Earth Savant? Or Incendiary Cloud and Meteor Swarm for a Fire? Those should get significantly stronger at least for a Sorc of the correct Savant, right? Obviously Polar Ray will be huge for an Ice Savant, plus Cone of Cold and maybe Otiluke's Freezing Sphere...

Basically for Sorc there seems like a LOT of other possibilities that make FW not THE ONLY CHOICE for a caster, which is the entire point of the spell changes is to have some variety with our casters. While I agree its fun seeing those massive crit firewall numbers, it'll be nice to see other spells doing similar damage without having to sit in the flames or drag mobs through the wall...

I hope they plan on adding a few more spells to even out the Savant spell choices...What spell element would Cloudkill fall into? Air, Acid, or maybe neither? Is Wail of the Banshee Air? How about Shout and Greater Shout?

[wingmaker]

Yes single target spells do cost a lot less with the update.

So I come down the hall way, 10 mobs looking at me, cast a mass hold hitting at least 5 toss a web sticking 2 more melf one for a slow death polar Ray another, finger the last one not stuck. By then at least two broke the hold, I run over and wail getting one of the guys in the web, three of the guys that was already held and one of the guys that brook free, by now the one with melf's on it is close enough to dead that I hit with one of my direct dmg sla's I pw kill one of the remainders and hit the last with another polar Ray, he saves.... I hit him with an sla or two to finish him off..

This sounds like a lot of fun, to bad in reality I'm having to mash keys tab through monsters, back peddle or run into the group of mobs hot swapping weapon sets and hitting clickies/ pots to get the best out of everything, no fun for these old hands specially after a long day at work..

Or.. As is now, I can run in and hit wail and kite the ones that lived to the next big group and either wail, rinse, repeat till I get close enough to a shrine to turn and blast. Or I can kite to the shrine hit that clickie and toss a fire wall and save that shrine for the boss fight or for that emergency I missed you 4 times with different spells because you ran behind a rock or behind me and wasted 1/3 of my mana because now your half way up a wall or moved across the map even though I stoned you before casting polar Ray times..

If I wanted to kill mobs one at a time I would have been a melée. Wizards are about mass dmg to a lot of mobs at once at the cost of constant dps. Fireball,acid blast at early levels, ice storm for fire or acid immune and fire wall with the occasional meteor swarm when I'm feeling cocky about my sp pool. Kill them all and do it all at once. That's a wizard to me. Single target spells are melée but with sp limits stuck on them.. Save that for bosses...

[Ungood]

Wail = 30 second timer
Symbol of Death = Symbol spell, extremely long timer and locks out other symbol spells (eg. symbol of persuasion) while on timer.
PWK = 300 second timer

Instadeath spells have taken a huge nerf.

Ya know, if symbol spells did not lock out other symbol spells, or, allowed me to drop more then one symbol, I'd actually let a symbol spell take up a spell slot (maybe even, dare I say, I might mem more then one)

It's that lock out that nerfed them to insta death, to be honest.

However, they removed the save from PWK, so you use it, and something dies, so it has become a single kill freebie, (but, is a one shot insta kill every 3 and a half min really worth a spell slot?)

When I think about PWK might be worth it with the raised HP cap and the No Save, if I really knew the zone and could plan when I wanted to use it for max effectiveness, much the same way Unyielding Sovereignty might be used.

But again, it is really worth the spell slot?

[Cartheron]

Wail of the banshee = 30 sec CD

Circle of death = aoe insta death spell with unknown timer, but dealing 1d4 neg levels on passed save

I doubt that CD on circle will be longer than 30 seconds.

Now, after casting Circle, most of the crowd is dead, rest is debufed. Odd mobs saved on reflex save and are unharmed, but they are probably evasion types with low fort anyway.

Cast wail. Almost everything is dead now. Ignore spare sruvivors, run and gather another gruop.

Are instakill spells nerfed? For those who have high reliable DC, no, they are improved because they will work in many places where they are not working now. For those with DC not worth mentioning - yes, it is a nerf, because they can no longer compensate for it by repetable casting. I consider this good - being able to compensate for low DC with spell spam is so lame in my book.

Regarding leveling speed - only quests where FW is a real killer are undead quests. And undead dies in FW so fast, that extending it is a waste in 95% of situations. Undead reflex saves are low too btw. Everywhere else, there are better (faster) spells to use. In VoT area, mass sugestion, wail and dbf, with a small addition of ice storm (for golem slaying ) will get you through quest at lighting speed. IQ, RR - the same. Amrath - use chain lighting instead of dbf, and fw is not working well there anyway.

To sum up my thoughts - if you are 2 trick pony, with FW cast everywhere and spamming wails until they finaly lands, then yes, you are probably nerfed big time. If you actually know how to play an arcane, work on your DC and use correct tools for every situations, you are buffed - now you have much more tools to use

[fyrst.grok]

What really bugs me is the changes to crit-lines etc. and the death spells.. It will make archmages even less disireble than palemaster now.. And I'm sick of those already.

I finally brought my tr to level 20 as an archmage because I didn't want to be a watermelon anymore.. And now it's going to be even harder to do any damage as a wizard.. There we go.. 3rd and last toon getting nerfed beyound repair

The fw nerf.. While annoying, it needed competition.. Do think they sould make other spells like cloud kill more powerfull in stead though.

[Trapdoor]

I think the Sorceror v. Wiz debate is going to get heated up big time. Like Physics II Enhancement Magical Wall of Fire heated. It seems like the nerfs are going to change the way we play our arcanes. At least with Sorcs we get the addition of the savants to make those spells that weren't nerfed (lightning bolt I'm looking at you!) heightened "for free" via PrEs.

Lightning bolts nerf is in U10

Now, do you think the Ball Lightning or Chain Lightning will receive the Backlash 50% double strike like lightning bolt? Since all the Savants deal with non-force elements doesn't it seem like they should boost Force spells? What about Acid Fog for an Earth Savant? Or Incendiary Cloud and Meteor Swarm for a Fire? Those should get significantly stronger at least for a Sorc of the correct Savant, right? Obviously Polar Ray will be huge for an Ice Savant, plus Cone of Cold and maybe Otiluke's Freezing Sphere...

Fires spell nerf first, cold next, all other elementals nerfed again after that, they have a plan to dum the game down to attract the little add kids that dont need to develop tactics....

Basically for Sorc there seems like a LOT of other possibilities that make FW not THE ONLY CHOICE for a caster, which is the entire point of the spell changes is to have some variety with our casters. While I agree its fun seeing those massive crit firewall numbers, it'll be nice to see other spells doing similar damage without having to sit in the flames or drag mobs through the wall...

Crit firewalls are only for 1 tic... then you gotta roll the dice each tic for it to ... "flare up" ....

I hope they plan on adding a few more spells to even out the Savant spell choices...What spell element would Cloudkill fall into? Air, Acid, or maybe neither? Is Wail of the Banshee Air? How about Shout and Greater Shout?

As for insta death spells.... bah.... with timers, your dead before the mobs even hear you

[quickgrif]

well for those of you who /not signed, you obviously dont play much, either that or you play big barbs who it doesnt affect, but i tell you this, BARB NERF is coming bud, just like those nerfers want you to think your safe, then bamn, youll be whining and no one will care , coz you were warned...

You have been warned!

AND MASS HOLD = NO AUTO CRIT!!!!!!!! (another nerf coming soon)

Premature statement without testing the said changes out. I will give my thoughts after testing the changes.

I capped casters plenty of times and don't see it your way but in conclusion.. when you drop to name calling and calling doom to try to win a fight you already have lost.

[Trapdoor]

Premature statement without testing the said changes out. I will give my thoughts after testing the changes.

I capped casters plenty of times and don't see it your way but in conclusion.. when you drop to name calling and calling doom to try to win a fight you already have lost.

Not resorting to name calling, however.... for all you people who like Kiters in TOD.... well... your going to need to work out a new tactic. coz by the time your kiters makes it half way round the room, the shadows are going to eat you all when the non extended firewall drops....... doom and gloom , maybe.... but then hey.... tod just got a whole lot harder

[quickgrif]

well for those of you who /not signed, you obviously dont play much, either that or you play big barbs who it doesnt affect, but i tell you this, BARB NERF is coming bud, just like those nerfers want you to think your safe, then bamn, youll be whining and no one will care , coz you were warned...

You have been warned!

AND MASS HOLD = NO AUTO CRIT!!!!!!!! (another nerf coming soon)

Not resorting to name calling, however.... for all you people who like Kiters in TOD.... well... your going to need to work out a new tactic. coz by the time your kiters makes it half way round the room, the shadows are going to eat you all when the non extended firewall drops....... doom and gloom , maybe.... but then hey.... tod just got a whole lot harder

See your statement above when you declare that everyone who does not agree with you must not have played much.

Anyway its out on Lam to test.

[BrightAsh]

/not signed one little bit (op)

Skipping the enitre mathematics and replying to the OP.

Nerf? not at all, you gain deathspells without save, absurd powerfull FW is no more (new "nerf" only aplies a bit on undead). last "nerf" on critwalls prevents you from solo-ing a raid... well that is the worst reason one could come up with. I know it is fun to sometimes solo a quest, but.. it is a MMO (MASS MULTIPLAYER) Solo-ing is kind of a contradictio in terminis wouldn't you think.

So, reading your post again, it actually sais: Excellent job Turbine, you balanced the game a bit more by adjusting the game so that all classes add to eachother in a partybased challange.

Bravo! and than i could say: /signed

[bryanmeerkat]

2) Casters get their spells nerfed, Firewall for example, A crit firewall doesnt last the length of the spell, which is rediculous! and against the laws of physics, each tic has a chance to crit ? Really? now, i have to wait the entire length of the spell for those crits to tic every so often, Instead of burning my mana to get that crit firewall, to solo eye of the titan end boss and other.

You have trouble with soloing the boss in eye of the titan since the change ?

[Boegvar]

Arcane aint no 1-Trick-Pony anymore and thats a good thing!

We have to adjust our style of playing. We cant use ottos irr and fw the mob, but there are many more option.

The only thing that i complain about is that many builds are quite useless now, so turbine should thing about one or two feat exchanges, the enhancements could be resettet anytime.

I like the new sorc pre, and i hope there will be more diversity.

[Aeron1976]

/signed for sure

I'am still amazed how the Devs are able to nerf my toons just as i start to like them.

Had a TWF Ranger = TWF nerf

Still have a Wizard with WoF and Wail = spell nerf

also a Monk with Stunning Fist = stun nerf

Should we really all go for the THF Barbarian to build a useful toon?

Its the most boring for me tbh, so plz stop this madness before it goes live.

P.S.: Can not understand a single person who /notsigned this

[zeonardo]

if the nerf trolls complain enough, things get nerfed, if the hard core players complain about the nerfs, more nerfs

lol

Thats an interesting thing.
It will put a whole new look to the game.
Arcanes will be main DPS in some quests and only BUFFERS in some others.
What would a Water Sorcerer do in Prey on the Hunter? Cast an even nerfed (by being water sorc) "wall of fire"?
What would an Earth Sorcerer do in Made to Order? Heal Golems?
What would a Fire Sorcerer do in A WHOLE LOT OF QUESTS?
Air seems to be a good strategy now... but will still sucks sometimes.

There will be LFM for Elements now. And a kick after the quest.

I got TR'd some weeks ago without knowing that. Now my Wizard will be a mule untill I figure out what to do with it. And its 34 points build.

/sigh