Nerf Stick

[Thriand]

Apparently I'm the only person around here thats absolutely thrilled about all the spell changes. This whole revamp should've been done ages ago

Sure firewall got nerfed, but it needed it, and its still insanely powerful. I play a caster as my main and I'm 100% behind them on this.

The only semi-nerf I can really complain about via the spell changes is the fact that extend no longer effects most damage spells like firewall/melfs. Which takes away a lot of the value of the feat and it wouldn't be very overpowered at all to allow these spells to be extended.

[Unreliable]

Things change.

Learn to live with them.

[sirgog]

/facepalm

Really, just /facepalm.

Sorcs go from bad wizards to the highest DPS class in the game and people complain?


I could understand complaining if you had an ungeared melee and were complaining 'hey, i'll never get into groups now'

[Ungood]

Now, I don't mean to be rude, but the variety of responses I have seen supporting this change, seem to come across as the wit and wisdom of people who have spent their gaming days watching wizards, not playing them.

To be fair to some of the people who may play wizards and think (or believe) that "single target spells" are the fun spells. I encourage you to feel free to burn your entire blue bar with them trying to kill a mob. The irony is, there is decent chance that is exactly what you will end up doing.

here is some food to ponder: Arcane casters use this tactic, pretty much all of them do. either by figuring it out themsleves that dancing into the Fire wall was an effective and efficent means to get the most milage from each spell they cast, or they opened their eyes and ears and listend to the vets before them. Either case, pretty much every effective Arcane uses this tactic.

But the truth is, Arcane casters do not lay fire walls (Solid Fog/Incendiary Cloud/Etc) because we think it is fun, nor we think this is easy. We know it is spell point effective to use this method. It means we can do more with less, between rests.

But, a change like this will make a vast change to arcane casters. And I want to make you all well aware that this will incite arcane casters to be far more frugal with their spell points, from your guild buddy, to every arcane you know. Things will not be as they were.

With that warning, when this change hits, I encourage you all, to have clickeis/pots ready for those spells you feel are worthwhile, as the Arcane Casters will most likely not be so willing to dispense buffs as wantonly as was may have been in the past, as we work out this new, and no doubt painful transition in the way magic will be working for us.

If you are in such support for this change, I am sure you will be understanding with this.

[katz]

I am waiting to see how it all works on Lam. I think a lot of the doom is very premature.

/Not signed . . . yet

agreed

[furbyoats]

this is the first thread that i have read any complaints about the new changes....no one else has posted anything like this....evar!

deal with it, adapt...you seriously think that the devs taking firewall down just a tad and HALVING epic mobs' hp if going to hurt? sheeeeeei*

firewall was used cause it was cheap, effective, efficient....and...OVERPOWERED...as much as i love that spell, i do have to admit that it was just silly...especially with a self healing caster with a torc and conc opp....just silly

so now we get to see if they pull through with their plan...to make other spells more effective, and to make epics challanging (as in: no longer mass hold, auto crit for 30 minutes)

holy **** they are trying to make ddo what it is supposed to be...fast adaptive playing! and guess what, as a caster you get the MOST out of it...

if you dont like being challenged and having to think on your feet whilst weilding a giant effing cannon...then dont play an arcane...

they brought out what it is supposed to be... they arent buff bots, they arent kite bots, they arent hold bots (curious to see how the enchant spec'ed wizards fare with the changes to the saves, etc) casters are versitile, and can be molded many different ways

before you **** your panties and cry doom, read over the whole **** list and realize that some of these changes may make the arcanes the most exciting class to play.

/rant
/NOT signed

[Nick_RC]

/not signed

And I play a caster alot and have for years. Learn to use other spells instead of relying on one crutch.

[furbyoats]

Now, I don't mean to be rude, but the variety of responses I have seen supporting this change, seem to come across as the wit and wisdom of people who have spent their gaming days watching wizards, not playing them.

main is a 3rd life arcane atm, sorc sorc wiz[

To be fair to some of the people who may play wizards and think (or believe) that "single target spells" are the fun spells. I encourage you to feel free to burn your entire blue bar with them trying to kill a mob. The irony is, there is decent chance that is exactly what you will end up doing.

currently, yes you are correct...but before you flame the changes, READ THEM, single target damage spells dropped in sp cost DRASTICALLY

here is some food to ponder: Arcane casters use this tactic, pretty much all of them do. either by figuring it out themsleves that dancing into the Fire wall was an effective and efficent means to get the most milage from each spell they cast, or they opened their eyes and ears and listend to the vets before them. Either case, pretty much every effective Arcane uses this tactic.

But the truth is, Arcane casters do not lay fire walls (Solid Fog/Incendiary Cloud/Etc) because we think it is fun, nor we think this is easy. We know it is spell point effective to use this method. It means we can do more with less, between rests.

trust me, i use it all the time...honestly, relying on firewall is lazy...but it is because it was the only thing that was effective/efficient, read above about sp changes...nullifies this statement.

But, a change like this will make a vast change to arcane casters. And I want to make you all well aware that this will incite arcane casters to be far more frugal with their spell points, from your guild buddy, to every arcane you know. Things will not be as they were.

i dont buff anything but haste and rage...if there are traps, the rogue gets a gh, the main tank gets a displace and a stoneskin...if you wish to waste sp on buffs, thats a playstyle thing...again sp cost changes

With that warning, when this change hits, I encourage you all, to have clickeis/pots ready for those spells you feel are worthwhile, as the Arcane Casters will most likely not be so willing to dispense buffs as wantonly as was may have been in the past, as we work out this new, and no doubt painful transition in the way magic will be working for us.

If you are in such support for this change, I am sure you will be understanding with this.
[color=red] as someone with an arcane as their main toon, i welcome the changes and will be going back to a sorc eventually :P[/cpolor]

above...in red

now...just to show how much people dont read the notes and rely on the bellowing of others to get their information...

there had been little mention of the cooldown change to wail of the banshee...30 seconds...

thats right, no more spammy death everywhere.

you can cry about it...or just adapt and learn how to bring in other spells to do the job...please read the notes people...its not as horrid as you think.

[Zeusknight]

Apparently I'm the only person around here thats absolutely thrilled about all the spell changes. This whole revamp should've been done ages ago

Sure firewall got nerfed, but it needed it, and its still insanely powerful. I play a caster as my main and I'm 100% behind them on this.

The only semi-nerf I can really complain about via the spell changes is the fact that extend no longer effects most damage spells like firewall/melfs. Which takes away a lot of the value of the feat and it wouldn't be very overpowered at all to allow these spells to be extended.

This. I am a fellow caster and approve this message. Reading all these doom posts I figured i was the only one excited about the changes. Glad to see I'm not alone.

[Ashbinder]

SP changes for many spells have dropped dramatically.

What has NOT changed is the cost of Maximizing/Empowering these spells. Devs have not stated whether these will be revised, but since Heighten hasn't changed, it's a fair bet these will still work as before.

You might have a reduction of 10-20 sp over many single target spells, but when the cost is still +40 sp for Maximize/Empower, the changes don't add a huge difference. Even less if you Heighten.

Unless Metas are reviewed, it's a nerf.

[furbyoats]

meh, throw out maximize

if polar ray costs 15 sp

it is 40 with maximize

or...

cast it twice for 30 sp :P

free's up that evocation focus slot lol

but in all seriousness i believe they are trying to push people toward using sla's

i doubt that they will change metamagics...right now...you dont want them to change EVERY little detail at the same time, the changes coming are big enough to warrant a good testing period...

could be bad...i think it will be good and an excited to see a change :P

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Unless Metas are reviewed, it's a nerf.

You're confusing the SP buff with the damage buff.
The sp buff (reduction is sp cost) is just fluff for the low levels, what really matters is the damage increase, which will be insane. As I said, they'll have (by far) the highest dps. (1000-1500+ (that's 2-4 times as much as a fully geared barb in a perfect scenario)

So, wait for the patch - and rejoice when you realize that sorcs (and wizards) are at the top of the herd.

[Seventh]

SP changes for many spells have dropped dramatically.

What has NOT changed is the cost of Maximizing/Empowering these spells. Devs have not stated whether these will be revised, but since Heighten hasn't changed, it's a fair bet these will still work as before.

You might have a reduction of 10-20 sp over many single target spells, but when the cost is still +40 sp for Maximize/Empower, the changes don't add a huge difference. Even less if you Heighten.

Unless Metas are reviewed, it's a nerf.

Unless you picked your enhancements at random and are running around naked, you're not paying +40 SP for Max/Emp. Let's do a little math:

Base cost of Polar Ray: 45 SP. +15 for Emp and +25 for Max- 85 SP.
Improved Emp/Max enhancements: -15 SP. Efficient Emp/Max gear: -6 SP.
With basic gear, the cost of a Polar Ray is 64 SP. That's where we're at now.

With the update, the base cost of Polar Ray goes down to 15 SP, bringing total cost to 34 SP- almost cutting it in half. I'd call that significant, and spammable (Depending on available gear a sorc could drop anywhere from 80 to more than 100 per rest, and keep in mind Water Savants will require at most two Polar Rays to kill your average epic trash mob after the update, one if they crit), especially if you grab a Staff of the Petitioner for an extra -3 (I think I'd prefer an Epic Staff of Arcane Power to get CL to 28 on a Water Savant, but Petitioner's easier to get). This is already a decent boost to DPS and we haven't even gotten to SLA's. And TBH, I imagine meta costs will be reviewed in the future. I recall Eladrin mentioning in the Savant thread that the devs were aware of how silly metas making lower level spells disproportionately expensive is.

It's a good time to be arcane.

[Trapdoor]

Held monsters will take 50% more damage from all sources, including magic. You could mass hold some mobs then lay a FW down on them, and it will be doing more damage on them than it does now. This combined with epic monsters' HP being reduced and buffs to and lowered SP cost of many damage spells, nuking is back on the table in epic content and even better in normal content.

Arbitrary blanket immunities being removed means instant death spells can be used again - necromancy just got a lot more powerful as well. Now it should rival enchantment in usefulness. It'll even do more damage on a failed save.

Many spells that were previously useless have been increased in power. Power word kill will be able to deal with many otherwise difficult orange nameds, especially those without SR, or could be used to thin out the most dangerous monsters in a given encounter (like spellcasters). Circle of death is like a mass enervation/death effect. Who knows how the symbol spells have been buffed?

We even get a tiny mana regeneration effect.

Actually i believe wail of the banshee is going to get..... a cool down timer.... hope you have a high DC... .im sure someone has mentioned this by now though...

[Ashbinder]

Improved meta enhancements are looking like a luxury for Sorcs given the AP costs for Prestiges and critical lines. Third Tier Prestige requires Improved Maximizing or Empowering II, but I'd love to see a breakdown on how you'd squeeze -15 sp out of an 80 AP build. At most I'd guess people will spend 12 AP for a -16 sp with gear.

You've also opted for Polar Ray as an example, which means you're planning on rotating Polar Ray and 1-2 SLAs. This means instead of running through a quest spamming Firewall you plan on running through a quest spamming Polar Ray/SLAs. The changes don't add up to a change in gameplay, they just add up to a nerf to AoE DoT for multiple targets.

[Ashbinder]

You're confusing the SP buff with the damage buff.
The sp buff (reduction is sp cost) is just fluff for the low levels, what really matters is the damage increase, which will be insane. As I said, they'll have (by far) the highest dps. (1000-1500+ (that's 2-4 times as much as a fully geared barb in a perfect scenario)

So, wait for the patch - and rejoice when you realize that sorcs (and wizards) are at the top of the herd.

Damage goes up, but at the cost of efficiency. You're talking about 1000-1500+ damage, but how much of that is sustainable through an entire dungeon? This is why Firewall was used, since it was an efficient tactic of dealing damage to multiple targets.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Damage goes up, but at the cost of efficiency. You're talking about 1000-1500+ damage, but how much of that is sustainable through an entire dungeon? This is why Firewall was used, since it was an efficient tactic of dealing damage to multiple targets.

DPS, not damage.
And that's what you do for raid bosses, in a dungeon you can spam SLAs for several hundreds of dps at the cost of practically nothing.

Besides, ever heard of pulling?
1. Pull a group
2. Cast cone of cold, freezing sphere, ice storm
3. Mobs dead
4. Repeat *4-5 times between each shrine, and you have more than enough sp.

[Ashbinder]

DPS, not damage.
And that's what you do for raid bosses, in a dungeon you can spam SLAs for several hundreds of dps at the cost of practically nothing.

Besides, ever heard of pulling?
1. Pull a group
2. Cast cone of cold, freezing sphere, ice storm
3. Mobs dead
4. Repeat *4-5 times between each shrine, and you have more than enough sp.

Cone of Cold = 30 sp + 40 meta - 16-21 (enhancements/gear) (+15 if you have heighten turned on)
Freezing Sphere = 35 sp + 40 meta - 16-21 (+10)
Ice Storm = 25 sp + 40 meta - 16-21

At best: 162sp for all three without heighten, at worst 177, 192 with heighten on.

To equal a Maximized Empowered Extended firewall currently (75 sp with no cost cuts), they'd need to remove roughly 100 sp off the cost of those three spells, averaging that each would need to cost 5 sp.

If you're only using one or two of them your efficiency goes up. However only Ice Storm has DoT, so if you miss a target or they make their save/have too many HP, using firewall would have still been cheaper.

Cold Savant SLAs are Niacs, Snowball Swarm and Frost Lance. Only Snowball Swarm affects more than one target.

[shadowhop]

I believe that most people who use extended firewalls were only using them when they are soloing. When you are in a group most mobs are already dead after 30 sec which makes it less of a problem to not be able to extend it.

When you throw a mass hold and then a firewall the mobs get 50 % more damage then before and together with the sp reduction of some spells, increase in enhancement strength and an extra pre for sorcs i think we should really look forward to the upcoming patch.

[Ashbinder]

Not really. Sorcs are getting an increase in single target DPS at the expense of multi-target losses. CC spells are either nerfed efficiency (firewall), increased cooldown (wail) or no longer granting auto-crit (mass hold).