Dark Monks

[efreet5]

well, unless you build for it. my wf monk's hp can hit high 600s-low 700s

generally it is high 500s in fire stance without using yugo or ddo store pots

While these numbers are nice and all, when giving general advice to a newer player for a class statements like these are, for all intensive purposes, stupid. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just saying that over 99 out of every 100 monks should not and would not be considered a tank. If yours is, kudos, but many should not expect this unless they plan their build with this end in mind.

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Also, Re: SS vs Handwraps

One thing that people fail to take into consideration when comparing hand wraps and other weapons (kamas/ss) are that offhand attacks with hand wraps apply your FULL STRENGTH BONUS. Kamas/SS only apply 1/2 of your str bonus on all offhand attacks. In addition, you lose the ability to use stunning fist while other weapons are equipped.

Hand wraps are the superior choice at this point. A fully geared monk can get 2d14 base damage on their fists and the CC ss's don't even compare. You can make a SS using ninja spy for flavor, but the dps comparison isn't really something that can be discussed at this point. Even using Lightning Strike SS's doesn't work, because a hand wrap user could utilize the mabar wraps for a comparable effect.

[DevHead]

Certainly not for a dex/wis build. But with sufficiently high STR, a 19-20 x3 crit profile would absolutely out-dps wraps.

I use a Dex/Wis build as my main, and no, they do not. 2d12 fists on auto-crits with ToD? Yes please. Now, this position may change after U9 hits. It also will depend on what Tier III of Ninja Spy is, whenever that is...and man, I want that now.

[DevHead]

Also, Re: SS vs Handwraps

One thing that people fail to take into consideration when comparing hand wraps and other weapons (kamas/ss) are that offhand attacks with hand wraps apply your FULL STRENGTH BONUS. Kamas/SS only apply 1/2 of your str bonus on all offhand attacks. In addition, you lose the ability to use stunning fist while other weapons are equipped.

Hand wraps are the superior choice at this point. A fully geared monk can get 2d14 base damage on their fists and the CC ss's don't even compare. You can make a SS using ninja spy for flavor, but the dps comparison isn't really something that can be discussed at this point. Even using Lightning Strike SS's doesn't work, because a hand wrap user could utilize the mabar wraps for a comparable effect.

If anything, perhaps some Min II SS. All I want for Xmas are GS handwraps.......

[Angelus_dead]

The Karmic Strike finisher no longer leaves the monk helpless. The effect has changed to "Fire-Dark-Fire Finisher - You have learned to strike at the moment your opponent is most vulnerable - the same moment your opponent strikes you. This attack is guaranteed to produce critical threat if it hits, but costs 20 hit points to perform."

I'd prefer if it was something like "The next attack on you (within 5 seconds) has +20 attack/damage", as that would convey the feeling of making yourself vulnerable to the enemy, instead of just zapping your own body making the swing. But the potential complexity in programming it probably wouldn't be worth the effort.

It's interesting that Karmic Strike is usable from level 3, but the hp cost is much worse for a lowbie than a capped character. So here's a suggestion:
The Karmic Strike self-damage is equal to your HD, not a flat 20.

[AylinIsAwesome]

That still wouldn't make SS better than wraps. There aren't any amazing Ninja Spy SS; the SS from the Cove are pretty cool, but I do way more DPS on just wraps.

I think it would just be cool to have "Khopeshes" on a Monk, for practically no cost.

This.

I'm rolling d10's at lvl 8, 2d6's if in Mountain stance, on every strike. Level 12 see's a bump again, and again at 16 and again at 20. Short swords, even dual wielding, are only 1d6. Sunblades go to 1d8. You're gimping yourself down pretty seriously (by my math) by using anything besides wraps in the first place, and that's all before enhancements, SA damage, elemental effects, prefixes, etc...

That's without figuring in crits, weapon focus, or any other feats, which will greatly enhance DPS on both lines, but even so, unarmed on a monk trumps weapon damage just about every time.

When comparing DPS between weapons, base damage is almost always meaningless. You'd want to compare the critical profiles, and, in the case of handwraps versus shortswords, Touch of Death, faster attack speed, full off-hand STR bonus, and slightly faster attack bonus. I suspect it would end up where below a certain STR value, Monks would be better off using shortswords or vice versa...though without taking the time to figure it out I can't say for sure.

Problem is, you're giving up stunning fist and touch of death (and quivering palm, but I don't think anyone uses that at 20) to use those. If you're just a monk splash, then it might be worth it but probably not otherwise.

With mob saves going up I doubt I'm going to be getting much use out of Stunning Fist anymore (plus it doesn't work on bosses anyway). The big loss is ToD.

I've done quite a bit of playing around with these two options lately. Here's the criteria you can use to choose which makes the most sense for you...

1) If you're highly concerned with healing amp then this is a no brainer. You spend the 10AP to go from Imp Recovery I (which you need for Shintao I) to III and call it a day.
2) If you're tight on enhancements and have enough low-level racial enhancements to bridge the gap between each tier of Imp Recovery then you can save 2AP by taking Imp Recovery II & III (again, we had to spend 2 AP on Imp Recovery I regardless).
3) If however you're like a lot of monks and finding it hard to spend those points before Imp Recovery II becomes available then Rise of the Phoenix becomes an outstanding option. On some of the human and half elven builds I've played around making it can save as much as 4AP that you would have been forced to spend on non-required fluff because you can get into the status cures much earlier than Imp Recovery II. It may cost 12AP for the entire Rise of the Phoenix line but if 6AP of that would have been spent on fluff you don't really want then you're coming out ahead AP-wise.
4) If you don't really have that much you want AP-wise anyways then I would take the healing amp. Everything from the RotP line comes on pots, scrolls, or clickies. You can't just pull more stacking healing amp out of the air.

I honestly think most of my future light monks will be taking RotP. As I've played my monk longer I've seen what I use and what I don't. Especially with the helplessness changes I'd want to try and fit in Void IV which means a TON of AP cost. Just about the only way you can make that work out and fit in anything else is with the RotP line.

My point was that Monks don't need to take RotP since they have an alternative cost. Healing amp is quite awesome though (plus it works all the time, instead of just when someone dies).

[Chris79]

All Bosses are immune to Dark finishers, and most are also immune to elemental vulnerability enhancements (required for Touch of Death). And the mobs not immune to the finishers are usually dead before you can pull it.

I'm not exactly sure if I understand here OP, so forgive me if I misinterpret you.

Touch of Death and elemental vulnerability enhancements and bosses...

Many raid bosses and quest bosses are vulnerable to ToD - and as you take more TWF feats, you get increased chances of multiple procs. As ToD is negative damage, certain mobs are understandingly immune (undead, abbott etc). But ToD procs on average 2-3 times per activation for me, so that's anywhere from 500-1500 damage on harry, suulo, horoth etc, per ToD. I'd say that's nothing to sniff at. Very nice to see it proc 3 times with no saves for 1500 dmg in shroud

[gamj]

Appologize, I hadn't considered ToD as a dark finisher since it's a dark move.

ToD does work on most Bosses. However, it now has a Fort Save for half damage, which means most of the time a successful save from a boss, and the mobs will have better saves in U9.

It's still 250+ on save, which is good.. But my issue is with Finishers and PrE. Deathward blocks ToD too btw.

However, I realize now as someone mentionned that Ninja doesn't have it's Tier3, which is why the ToD set doesn't give a set bonus for someone with the PrE.

[DevHead]

Appologize, I hadn't considered ToD as a dark finisher since it's a dark move.

ToD does work on most Bosses. However, it now has a Fort Save for half damage, which means most of the time a successful save from a boss, and the mobs will have better saves in U9.

It's still 250+ on save, which is good.. But my issue is with Finishers and PrE. Deathward blocks ToD too btw.

However, I realize now as someone mentionned that Ninja doesn't have it's Tier3, which is why the ToD set doesn't give a set bonus for someone with the PrE.

Get some Improved Cursespewing wraps, hit the boss with the Triple Dark finisher, and then ToD them; it helps a great deal. Also, the curse from the wraps will stack with a caster's Bestow Curse, so you can really go to town.

[jmonty]

While these numbers are nice and all, when giving general advice to a newer player for a class statements like these are, for all intensive purposes, stupid. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just saying that over 99 out of every 100 monks should not and would not be considered a tank. If yours is, kudos, but many should not expect this unless they plan their build with this end in mind.

lol

[ubernuber1254]

Dark monks get some interesting ablities. They get Incorp, Can walk on some water (worthless, but cool to mess around with) ToD for 500 points of negative damage (250 on save, none if they have deathward) can control monsters with Void : Dark : Void combo and can paralyze and other nifty things. On the other hand Light Monks can use AOE buffs (Blur, +2 to hit and skills, -25% SP cost, immunity to holds) and AOE heals. They get bonus Dr breakers, can trap undead mobs in a 'jade tomb' banish abberations, stun at long range and some other helpfull bonuses. I think the monks AOE heal, which IS affected by devotion and potency, and the short, but still usefull, AOE buffs outway the small amount of added DPS from dark monk. On my lvl 16 monk I can self heal with the aura for over 60 with an ardor potion. All in all its a personal choice on how you want to play.

[Tirisha]

I've done quite a bit of playing around with these two options lately. Here's the criteria you can use to choose which makes the most sense for you...

1) If you're highly concerned with healing amp then this is a no brainer. You spend the 10AP to go from Imp Recovery I (which you need for Shintao I) to III and call it a day.
2) If you're tight on enhancements and have enough low-level racial enhancements to bridge the gap between each tier of Imp Recovery then you can save 2AP by taking Imp Recovery II & III (again, we had to spend 2 AP on Imp Recovery I regardless).
3) If however you're like a lot of monks and finding it hard to spend those points before Imp Recovery II becomes available then Rise of the Phoenix becomes an outstanding option. On some of the human and half elven builds I've played around making it can save as much as 4AP that you would have been forced to spend on non-required fluff because you can get into the status cures much earlier than Imp Recovery II. It may cost 12AP for the entire Rise of the Phoenix line but if 6AP of that would have been spent on fluff you don't really want then you're coming out ahead AP-wise.
4) If you don't really have that much you want AP-wise anyways then I would take the healing amp. Everything from the RotP line comes on pots, scrolls, or clickies. You can't just pull more stacking healing amp out of the air.

I honestly think most of my future light monks will be taking RotP. As I've played my monk longer I've seen what I use and what I don't. Especially with the helplessness changes I'd want to try and fit in Void IV which means a TON of AP cost. Just about the only way you can make that work out and fit in anything else is with the RotP line.

On a light monk healing amp is awesome (Light punch+finisher anybody?) where as a raise dead clicky is virtually useless in most cases and if you are worried about the rare scenario that you are the only one who can raise the healer then just make a pos pos GS item.

Point is..... Healing amp=awesome sauce..... Raised clicky=barely situationally useful assuming you don't have the right gear that will make it useless.

[Mumu720]

ok, can someone clarify some things you guys have said in this thread? i have a lvl 16 dark halfling wis build, and i have recently taken a bit of a break from ddo, about 2-3 months, and im coming back now. Is there really gonna be no auto-crit on stun?! and someone else said something about higher saves for mobs? seems like monks will be taking a pretty big hit.

[DevHead]

ok, can someone clarify some things you guys have said in this thread? i have a lvl 16 dark halfling wis build, and i have recently taken a bit of a break from ddo, about 2-3 months, and im coming back now. Is there really gonna be no auto-crit on stun?! and someone else said something about higher saves for mobs? seems like monks will be taking a pretty big hit.

Correct, no auto-crit on any mob that is in a helpless state. They do take an extra 50% damage from all incoming sources, though.

I don't know anything about the saves, but I think you're referring to changes to Epic?

[SensaiRyu]

... But ToD procs on average 2-3 times per activation for me, so that's anywhere from 500-1500 damage on harry, suulo, horoth etc, per ToD. I'd say that's nothing to sniff at. Very nice to see it proc 3 times with no saves for 1500 dmg in shroud

Totally seen this on Harry - bypasses DR AND I've hit up to 4 times in Air Stance! Haven't seen a 2000 dmg hit yet, but I often get 750+ dmg. Three hits is not uncommon. And I never seem to run out of ki to use it. When the timer runs out my ki's back up.

Also I've gotten dark/dark/dark to work on Harry's mini-bosses. I think I've succeeded once on Harry - don't quote me on it. I don't think my wiz is high enuf for Harry to get it unless he rolls a 1. When I TR, I'll be making a better build than the one I have now - more wiz this time.

Since you get the dark/dark/dark finisher by using any combo of ToD and shadow fade, I use it on Harry whenever it pops up.

[Mumu720]

Correct, no auto-crit on any mob that is in a helpless state. They do take an extra 50% damage from all incoming sources, though.

I don't know anything about the saves, but I think you're referring to changes to Epic?

Yeah, that kind of sucks, but the fact that monks have a ton of elemental damge, with rings and wraps, it may be pretty close and not sooo noticable. So that means that the elemental bursting affect wont hit if they are stunned? I wish they just kept it the same, because now i wont gain as much ki, i liked having my own kigenerator every time i stunned something! May make fire stances ki generating bonus that much more potent.