Dark Monks

[KreepyKritter]

Water Stance + Jidz-Tetka Bracers + brawling gloves = win.

Bracers in water stance paralyze and poison on vorpal strikes. Brawling gloves seem to also have a sunder effect on every strike.

[DevHead]

I wanna see Ninja Spy Tier III PrE. If they make it to where you add your Wis mod to damage, I'll be just fine with no more auto-crits.

[gamj]

On my darkmonk I use the 3x earth finisher against casters to end spellcasting, the earth/dark/earth to render mobs helpless for an entire minute (nausea), water/dark/water to paralyze mobs, Shining Star (Earth/Wind/Fire), and I stun them.

Every dark finishers are Fort saves.

I have the same DC with Stunning fist than finishers (39) which works almost all the time in anything other than Crystal Cove 25 because of their boosted saves.

Stunning fist is 15ki. (6 sec cooldown)
Dark finishers are a minimum of : 5+10+5+10 = 30ki [most likely more since you'll want to use better elemental moves to actually do some damage at the same time]. (at least 1 sec per move, minimum 4 secs to pull it if you're fast and can maintain the combo that fast. Most likely you'll pull 1 finisher in the same amount to time as a Stunning Fist.)
Also, mobs get a regular save against any the finishers' effects. (unless the description is false)

With the changes of No-auto-crit on stunned/held, that double cost will show pretty quick since you get ki back more slowly.
With the higher saves, they will free themselves of effects faster.

Yes, some moves are nice. But why paralyse for a few secs when you can stun for longer and half the ki? Moreso, you can't adjust finisher to change the Save type, because they're all Fort. If Water-Neg-Water was will for example, then yes I could see use of changing from stunning fist to other finishers against different targets.

Sure, Shadow Fade is nice and I use it all the time, but my point here wasn't ShadowFade or ToD... ToD was nerfed in a rescent update, and it was a fair nerf.. Then again, with better saves the mobs will save vs ToD more often.

I just don't see the use of most finishers at the moment. And exept Shadow Fade, the other abilities from Ninja Spy are pretty dull... And Ninja II walk on liquid isn't working 95% of the time.

I guess I'll have to wait and see...

[AylinIsAwesome]

I wanna see Ninja Spy Tier III PrE. If they make it to where you add your Wis mod to damage, I'll be just fine with no more auto-crits.

I kinda wanna see +1 crit multiplier with Shortswords.

Khopesh-wielding Monks anyone?

[Winteris]

1) Blur, Displacement, and Dusk don't stack. They're concealment bonuses, so the game applies the highest of the three to your character. Blur is 20%, Displacement is 50%, and Dusk is X% (is it 10% or is it like some other effects that say 10, but are really 20%?).

I always thought that blur and displacement do not stack but the incoming hit rolls 2 times, once against blur and once against displacement. It would mean 60% miss chance for mob. Is that not true ?

[QuantumFX]

- Nyoko's Ring/Necklace is **** compared to Shintao's kit. (Sneak attack bonus? Meh.. there are so many other options like Tharne's, new gauntlets from Cove, cove hat, etc) And it doesn't have a special bonus if you have Ninja Spy PrE.

The +4 sneak attack **** is a weakness of *all* the ToD sets.

The reason you don’t have a spiffy bonus is because there is currently no third tier of the Ninja-Spy PrE. Until you get a third tier, it’s rediculous to complain about a set bonus that doesn’t even exist.

If you want a valid complaint about then try: “Why doesn’t Ninja-Spy have a third tier yet!”

- - Ninja Spy PrE is pretty Meh now compared to the upgrade to Shintao. (You get 3d6 sneak + small Ki increase while sneaking) compared to all the nice stuff Shintao got like bypassing every DR, Jade prison, ranged stun, etc.

You get shafted in the PrE, Shintao monks currently take it in the rear by getting a Raise Dead clickie rather than a 500+ point damaging strike.

Once again, go complain how you don’t have a third tier of your PrE.

- Dark move finishers are complete **** and useless against the mobs you'd like it to work on.

All Bosses are immune to Dark finishers, and most are also immune to elemental vulnerability enhancements (required for Touch of Death). And the mobs not immune to the finishers are usually dead before you can pull it.

I have to admit I'm not a expert at Finishers, but when most of the time it doesn't work I'm not trying to improve at something useless... Then again, I might be doing something wrong here, but that doesn't change the fact that they don't work on most Red and not at all with Purple.

So your entire argument that “Our debuffs suck” is based upon 4 bosses in the game. Seriously? All the signature Shintao effects don’t work properly on them either. (Curse of Healing and Smite Taint.)

Compared to light moves, while being more defensive in nature, have their uses (remove curse, restoration, etc). Healing curse works on everything, and I heard a light monk rescently saying one of their debuff (dont remember which) worked on Harry in Shroud...

You should *really* take the time to learn what your debuffs actually work on. Touch of Despair is just as situational and just as incredibly useful as Jade Strike. (Hint - go run Epic Snitch and try it on the miniboss that takes forever to beatdown.)

[Gulnar13]

Water Stance + Jidz-Tetka Bracers + brawling gloves = win.

Bracers in water stance paralyze and poison on vorpal strikes. Brawling gloves seem to also have a sunder effect on every strike.

They don't have a sunder effect, it's just the graphic of the 1d4 piercing damage. As far as i know it, there are no sundering accesories that work with handwraps.
Also, displacement and blur don't stack, right now. Theire the same kind of bonus, and they are the same kind of bonus provided by the mabar clock, the desert trinket, and the abbot cloak. The only two things that provides incorporeality bonus are the shadow fade from the dark monk and the wraith form of the wizard.
As a last thing, right now the fire dark fire finisher has the problem that, with handwraps, it doesn't work AT ALL. With weapon, on the other hand, the helpless negative effect doesn't work, so it's a free crit when the cooldowns are down.

Also, i would like to point out to the poster above me that, even if only monks can have the shintao pre, every melee out of there want the shintao set. So the "ninja set is not awesome because there is no ninja pre third enh" theory is a lie.

[~herbstlich]

Dark-dark-dark works on epic bosses and pretty handy.
Elemental finishers land in almost all raids.

You probably should go and make your DCs higher if they don't.

[DevHead]

They don't have a sunder effect, it's just the graphic of the 1d4 piercing damage. As far as i know it, there are no sundering accesories that work with handwraps.

The gloves are supposed to daze enemies on a vorpal strike, but I don't think it hits properly.

[AylinIsAwesome]

You get shafted in the PrE, Shintao monks currently take it in the rear by getting a Raise Dead clickie rather than a 500+ point damaging strike.

That is incorrect. You can qualify for Shintao 3 by taking Monk Improved Recovery 3 instead.

[Memnir]

-note on Monk usability, and a change to an ability-

While we've got you here, I'd like to ask a question.

Any chance of seeing a change to Crane Stance to better suit the crit-reduced Update 9 combat? Because right now, Crane looks to be in danger of losing a good degree of it's functionality.


Thank you for your time, Eladrin.

[DevHead]

I kinda wanna see +1 crit multiplier with Shortswords.

Khopesh-wielding Monks anyone?

That still wouldn't make SS better than wraps. There aren't any amazing Ninja Spy SS; the SS from the Cove are pretty cool, but I do way more DPS on just wraps.

[KreepyKritter]

That still wouldn't make SS better than wraps. There aren't any amazing Ninja Spy SS; the SS from the Cove are pretty cool, but I do way more DPS on just wraps.

This.

I'm rolling d10's at lvl 8, 2d6's if in Mountain stance, on every strike. Level 12 see's a bump again, and again at 16 and again at 20. Short swords, even dual wielding, are only 1d6. Sunblades go to 1d8. You're gimping yourself down pretty seriously (by my math) by using anything besides wraps in the first place, and that's all before enhancements, SA damage, elemental effects, prefixes, etc...

That's without figuring in crits, weapon focus, or any other feats, which will greatly enhance DPS on both lines, but even so, unarmed on a monk trumps weapon damage just about every time.

[Chette]

I use 3xdark quite a bit, it's great in epic dragon, hit it right before she does her fire breath to slow regeneration. I also use void-dark-void all the time in epics. The others I don't use so much because, as somebody mentioned above, the cool down on stunning fist is so short, the cost is so cheap, and my DC is so high that 9 time out of 10 it's far easier to just stun the mob than to try to use a finisher.

[Therigar]

Regarding Dance of Clouds....

Replies have been that it is a poor blur effect with short duration and not anything to compare to Shadow Fade.

It is correct that there are differences between blur effects and incorporeal effects. And, there is a 5% higher level of protection with Shadow Fade. What is more, it is also true that Shadow Fade stacks with Blur or Displacement or a blur effect item like Dusk Heart. So, the two are not the same.

I did not mean to imply that they were.

What I meant to suggest is that we not over-value Shadow Fade. Like Dance of Clouds it is a short buff. It takes conscious effort to maintain it.

It is often ignored except when the character has aggro. Since monks should have trouble getting and holding aggro this most likely occurs because they are pushing ahead of the group and triggering the monsters. Or, it could be because they are soloing content.

In the first case that is just a play style thing and probably encouraged by the protections offered by group provided buffs. We all understand the second situation.

And, in that second situation where the group buffs are not available there is not much real difference between Shadow Fade and Dance of Clouds.

Don't forget that I'm not a big light monk fan. Check out my first post to the thread.

But, I don't agree that Shadow Fade is such a huge factor. As I originally said, dark and light paths are different. There are some neat options with both. Some are vastly different. Some are different and yet similar.

That is how I see Shadow Fade and Dance of Clouds. They are different but serve a similar purpose.

[Thrudh]

This.

I'm rolling d10's at lvl 8, 2d6's if in Mountain stance, on every strike. Level 12 see's a bump again, and again at 16 and again at 20. Short swords, even dual wielding, are only 1d6. Sunblades go to 1d8. You're gimping yourself down pretty seriously (by my math) by using anything besides wraps in the first place, and that's all before enhancements, SA damage, elemental effects, prefixes, etc...

That's without figuring in crits, weapon focus, or any other feats, which will greatly enhance DPS on both lines, but even so, unarmed on a monk trumps weapon damage just about every time.

Those new shortswords from CC do 2d6 base, and have the crit-range of a rapier... I intend to try those on my monk when I hit 20...

[Cardtrick]

That still wouldn't make SS better than wraps. There aren't any amazing Ninja Spy SS; the SS from the Cove are pretty cool, but I do way more DPS on just wraps.

Certainly not for a dex/wis build. But with sufficiently high STR, a 19-20 x3 crit profile would absolutely out-dps wraps.

[Thrudh]

Certainly not for a dex/wis build. But with sufficiently high STR, a 19-20 x3 crit profile would absolutely out-dps wraps.

They are 18-20/x2, but Ninja Spy II gives Improved Critical: Shortswords...

so 2d6 base with 15-20/x2 crit profile (and 6% doublestrike)

while centered.

[DrakmireTS]

They are 18-20/x2, but Ninja Spy II gives Improved Critical: Shortswords...

so 2d6 base with 15-20/x2 crit profile (and 6% doublestrike)

while centered.

Problem is, you're giving up stunning fist and touch of death (and quivering palm, but I don't think anyone uses that at 20) to use those. If you're just a monk splash, then it might be worth it but probably not otherwise.

[Darkrok]

That is incorrect. You can qualify for Shintao 3 by taking Monk Improved Recovery 3 instead.

I've done quite a bit of playing around with these two options lately. Here's the criteria you can use to choose which makes the most sense for you...

1) If you're highly concerned with healing amp then this is a no brainer. You spend the 10AP to go from Imp Recovery I (which you need for Shintao I) to III and call it a day.
2) If you're tight on enhancements and have enough low-level racial enhancements to bridge the gap between each tier of Imp Recovery then you can save 2AP by taking Imp Recovery II & III (again, we had to spend 2 AP on Imp Recovery I regardless).
3) If however you're like a lot of monks and finding it hard to spend those points before Imp Recovery II becomes available then Rise of the Phoenix becomes an outstanding option. On some of the human and half elven builds I've played around making it can save as much as 4AP that you would have been forced to spend on non-required fluff because you can get into the status cures much earlier than Imp Recovery II. It may cost 12AP for the entire Rise of the Phoenix line but if 6AP of that would have been spent on fluff you don't really want then you're coming out ahead AP-wise.
4) If you don't really have that much you want AP-wise anyways then I would take the healing amp. Everything from the RotP line comes on pots, scrolls, or clickies. You can't just pull more stacking healing amp out of the air.

I honestly think most of my future light monks will be taking RotP. As I've played my monk longer I've seen what I use and what I don't. Especially with the helplessness changes I'd want to try and fit in Void IV which means a TON of AP cost. Just about the only way you can make that work out and fit in anything else is with the RotP line.