Give weapon types inherent properties to encourage wider use of different weapons

[Cyr]

/signed

This is a logical approach to address the relative uselessness of certain weapon types compared to others.

Note, exotic weapons should be superior to normal weapons as they require an extra feat to use. This is an important part of balance also (reflecting increased power for increased investment). The same should follow from simple to martial weapons which also are restricted, but in a less severe manner (so likewise the difference should be lesser).

I am not commenting upon the specific suggestions for fixes here and more on the general idea and my support for it.

[bigolbear]

not signed on the weapons... BUT.

how about any one with the appropriate weapon focus get to unlock enhancements for a specific weapons:
and any one with improved weapon focus (ie fighters) gets to unlock a 2nd tier.

This would benefit fighters mostly but as weapon focus is required for many of the more martial prestiges for other classes it would benefit them too.

curently the humble fighter is great DPS but thats about it, a few nice effects with weapons to represent beter training would be great and hopefully lead to something more than the optimum fighter with 2 khopeshes being played.

soo.. looking at the weapons:
SIMPLE:
unarmed - 1: + 2 stunning-stacks, 2: +1 die step.
quarter staff - 1:quarter staff becomes a finessable weapon, 2: +4 vertigo
dagger - 1: threat reduction, 2: +2 sneak attack
light mace - 1: +2 stunning, 2: deception
sicle - 1: hamstring, 2: bleed
club - 1: +2 stunning, 2: everbright
heavy mace - 1:+4 stunning, 2:destruction
morning star - 1:bypass fort 10% 2: destruction
heavy crossbow - 1: +2 damage, 2: intbonus to damage
light crossbow - 1: +2 to hit, 2: intbonus to damage

MARTIAL:
light hammer - 1:+2 stunning, 2:bonebreaking
hand axe - 1: ki focus + 5% double strike, 2: 5% double strike
kukri - 1: hamstring, 2: bleed
light pick - 1: bypass fort 10%, 2: puncturing
shortsword - 1: parryinging, 2: greater parying
battle axe - 1: +4 to sunder, 2: destruction
long sword - 1: paryinging, 2: greater parying
heavy pick - 1: bypass fort 10%, puncturing
rapier - 1: + 2 to hit, bypass fort 10%
scimitar - 1:cripling, 2: bleed
warhammer - 1: +2 stuning, +2 bonebreaking
falchion - 1: cripling + hamstring, 2: bleed + slicing
greataxe - 1: +1 all tactics, 2: destruction, enhanced glancing blows
greatclub - 1: +2 stunning, 2: imporved crit multiplier 1 (20 x 3), everbright
greatsword - 1: +1 all tactics, 2: greater parying, enhanced glanceing blows
maul - 1: +2 stunning, 2: +2 stunning, enhance glanceing blows

EXOTIC:
kama - 1: slicing, 2: bleed (kama needs some dps boost)
bastard sword - 1: parying, 2: greater parying + enhance glancing blows
dwarven war axe - 1: +1 all tactics, +3 sunder, 2: destruction + enhance glancing blows
shuriken - 1: cripling, 2: deception
khopesh - 1: +2 vertigo, 2: + cripling
heavy repeating crossbow - 1: +2 damage, 2: intbonus to damage OR precision OR fixes repeater bug
light repeating crossbow - 1: +2 to hit, 2: intbonus to damage OR precision OR fixes repeater bug

[Missing_Minds]

/not signed

This is not a standard MMO, and these are not even in any splat books for DDO that I know of.

Now should the character specifically get some training so they have a better than normal clue, I have no issues with. Such as...

... should a character have martial proficiencies, and new enhancements are created that could do these things for weapon/s.

But they should not be a property of the weapon unless it is an exotic.

[sebastianosmith]

While I find the idea conceptually intriguing, as other have pointed out there are legitimate reasons for weapon type segmentation even if that reasoning is somewhat unclear or poorly implemented in certain instances. As a compromise proposition, introducing inherent properties which work in conjunction with certain skill values, feats or enhancements would provide the same effect if a character was willing to spend the points.

For example; I have long wondered why a rogue thief-acrobat cannot trip enemies coming and going with a quarterstaff. Such a character should be quite expert in that area. Having a quarterstaff with +1 to trip only when you are proficient with the weapon would make sense. Even if a character is not proficient with a staff, having a +1 to trip with it when say one's bluff skill is 30 or above would also make a certain amount of sense.

Items with advantages applicable only when a character possesses some aspect is already established in those such as a robe with +2 insight AC bonus for true neutrals only. Extending the idea to weapons is not all that difficult to imagine.

[Kriogen]

/signed

Good idea. Maybe not details, but idea is good

/not signed

This is not a standard MMO, and these are not even in any splat books for DDO that I know of.

Now should the character specifically get some training so they have a better than normal clue, I have no issues with. Such as...

... should a character have martial proficiencies, and new enhancements are created that could do these things for weapon/s.

But they should not be a property of the weapon unless it is an exotic.

Also good. Bonus does not have to be inherent to weapon. It could be class/enhancements based. But please NOT exclusive to a single build like INT/repeater for rogues/mech.

I think best would be if bonus is part built into weapon and can be increased by enhancements. Bu not like only rogue gets dagger and only barbarian get greatclub. More if you have DEX/finnese you can improve dagger, if you have high STR/power attack you can improve greatclub.

Bonus does not have to be DPS related. I don't like that 'increased attack speed' so much. I'd buy it if it also has penalty like 'dagger is 10% faster but this does not work with Power Attack'. That 'reduce AC' is good.

[Gauthaag]

/not signed

theres not really reason for this. there are good weapons and bad weapons. Only change i d like is making morning star double damage type weapon. If Rahls Might can do all three types of damage, why not morning star two?
And adding those trip bonuses to weapons, which can be in PnP used to trip doesnot unbalance anything as well

[TheDearLeader]

*snipped*

I can't even respond to the above. You've gone to the point of meaningless drivel, driving home the point that I refuse to spend time busting out the character planner just to satisfy you. You make this point instead of acknowledging the obvious: If someone is proficient with the given weapon they wish to use, they have already make the appropriate investment/sacrifice.

I'm done with you. I said my piece accurately in the first post, and I refuse to be badgered any further because I oppose removing the significance between the Simple, the Martial, and the Exotic.

[wonkey]

Figured I'd copy/paste my comment from the other thread on this, because it originated from this one;

I'm not sure how much the changes are needed, but its a fun concept, so here's a shot at it, based more on actual weapon type with a secondary focus on balance:

dagger - increased double strike chance (to represent ease of use)
kama - should be a simple weapon
longsword - pretty much your standard sword, no change (maybe +1 to hit when using shield)
mace - chance for stun effect
shortsword - no change (maybe +1 to hit when using shield)
war hammer - no change
crossbows - can be changed out before reloading, to be reloaded later. This is actually something I have suggested before, and think would be a good change
light crossbow - slightly faster reload time
heavy crossbow - no change other than regular crossbow change
great crossbow - low duration slow effect on crit (to represent the stunning force of impact) and regular crossbow change
repeating crossbow - no change other than regular crossbow change
long bow - no change. This is your best bow and there are already bow specific feats
short bow - automatically grants quickdraw feat when equipping. Or reduced penalty by 1 when shooting on run.


EDIT: khopesh - no change needed
scimitar - no change
rapier - almost tempted to put penalty against armor, but AC from various sources not differentiated, so no change.

[silvermesh]

/signed. caveat: The examples OP posted are just examples. the actual finality should be thought out carefully with balance in mind clearly.

In PnP the dagger was still a quite solid choice for a rogue for two reasons.
Primarily, because it can be thrown. typically a melee class picked up a weapon focus, and weapon focus dagger applied to swinging and throwing(focus wasnt based on type, it was based on weapon), this gave you a solid option to be able to flank stab, as well as sneak in a throw when necessary and still get your sneak attack bonus. with the way most weapon focus feats are set up, almost anyone who "specs" to use a dagger, is STILL better with a rapier, because all the feats apply to both weapons, and he can't throw either one anyhow.

Secondly, In PnP a rogue didn't have to be STR based to compete. You weren't expected to do epic content at non epic levels, so the game was balanced for regular content at those levels. AC mattered, so a dex based rogue made sense. his lack of STR was made up for by his sneak attack damage. as a rogue your crit profile wasnt as important, because your crit wasn't that different than any other hit, especially at higher levels.

The argument where we say "they don't have this or that in PnP so why should they here?" doesn't hold water. DDO is not PnP. It doesn't claim to be. Things don't work the same way in DDO, so it shouldn't be restricted by pnp nostalgia. Do weapons need some sort of pass to help with overall balance? yes. Should simple weapons be as good as Martial and so on? hell no, but that shouldn't mean they're completely useless either. In PnP I could build a fighter specializing in clubs that would knock your socks off(no pun intended?). In DDO the numbers are so skewed that the crit profile is the most important thing to have in mind. You build a fighter around an inferior weapon and you are laughably far behind. It should be more about skill than weapon choice.

[Missing_Minds]

The argument where we say "they don't have this or that in PnP so why should they here?" doesn't hold water. DDO is not PnP. It doesn't claim to be. Things don't work the same way in DDO, so it shouldn't be restricted by pnp nostalgia.

PnP also had weapons restricted by region and crafting. In a video game world that frame of "balance" does not exist. Why should something be given something?

"Oh.. to make people want to use it." .... oh please. This is a freaking video game and most people want to do the most damage, forget aesthetics. If they want to use it they are going to do so.

What we (PnP nostalgia players) do NOT want is to turn DDO into more generic, WoW seen styled MMO and video games that do that sort of weapon balance so everyone does about the same damage.

These are the choices we make with the character hence why it should NEVER be part of a weapon, but of character.

[Zachski]

Then I guess we can get rid of half the martial weapons and most of the simple weapons from the game because they have no point.

[krud]

Then I guess we can get rid of half the martial weapons and most of the simple weapons from the game because they have no point.

Then the loot tables would be even more skewed, since all those great attributes that end up on crappy weapons will now all end up on better weapons. A lot less vendor fodder.

Beside, not everyone plays the min/max, loot till you drop, max your toon at the expense of everything else, style of play. No reason to eliminate all those flavor weapons because many people choose to overlook them.

[Tarnoc]

/not signed
One is not supposed to pick simple weapons over martial weapons.
Simple weapons exist for builds that don't use martial weapons, the whole point of customization is giving you the option.

It is not a matter of just saying that non-optimal weapons need fixing, they don't, just don't use them if you can.
In d&d the weapons are classified by proficiency, by damage type and by size, so you will gonna see at least one weapon for each combination.

dagger is the piercing simple, sickle is the slashing simple, etc.
For bludgeons, Warhammer is main hand, the light hammer is off-hand, same with the battleaxe with handaxe.

An exception is the morning star which is one of those weapons that isn't properly implemented.
It was meant to be both pierce 'and' bludgeon but you can't have that in DDO as it is now.
The shortsword was tought to be slash and pierce but is listed as pierce only in the SRD.
The dagger is the one that is listed as slash 'or' pierce, but that role is filled by the sickle and kukri atm.

The exotic weapons are also badly implemented, losing a lot of the things you do the 'special training' for.
The bonuses to trip are also gone from weapons, but that's aside the point.

So these aspects are the things that need fixing, before going on suggesting new tweaks just make the weapons usable.

one thing you did leave out is weapon speed modifiers which in the 2.0 version i played made large differences

[Khanyth]

/signed.

While I can see both sides of the coin, I do like the idea

[Cloista]

not signed on the weapons... BUT.

how about any one with the appropriate weapon focus get to unlock enhancements for a specific weapons:
and any one with improved weapon focus (ie fighters) gets to unlock a 2nd tier.

This would benefit fighters mostly but as weapon focus is required for many of the more martial prestiges for other classes it would benefit them too.

curently the humble fighter is great DPS but thats about it, a few nice effects with weapons to represent beter training would be great and hopefully lead to something more than the optimum fighter with 2 khopeshes being played.

The specifics of what each weapon enhancement does needs work, but I actually find this the best suggestion so far, it ties weapon and character far more closely, focusing on that character's skills, than just adding random abilities to the weapons do. In doing so it successfully adds a tradeoff in the improved use of the focused weapon and as such creates an 'opportunity cost' and balance as a result. I also second the call for adding secondary damage types to the weapons that have historically always had them (Morningstars, Shortswords, and Daggers come to mind).

[donfilibuster]

The problem with if it is PnP or not is not that you can't do things different, is that D&D has a very rich weapons system that lost a lot on its conversion to MMO.
The problem with if it is a MMO is not is not that you can't improve the poor stuff, is that the engine doesn't allow you to have complex weapons.

Where's the ability to hold a weapon in one or two hands? for example.
You can't have that in a MMO because the weapons are fairly simplistic.

So we are getting the glittering trinkets in exchange of the gold.
If all MMOs out there make you happy with small bonuses on each new weapon so be it, but D&D has room to be superior.

one thing you did leave out is weapon speed modifiers which in the 2.0 version i played made large differences

Going by 3e here, in which the combat system has been largely simplified.
2e had initiative speed, swing arc and also weapon vs. armor specialization.