Bring back glancing blows on moving attacks

[Kinerd]

And also, for most classes - twitch attack remains higher dps then stationary. Pretty much every class except barbarian.

The only class I know of that does higher twitch-DPS is fighter, and that's only against trash. Against raid bosses or portals, even fighters do worse DPS twitching. Do you have a citation that suggests otherwise?

Outside of rogues and rangers, TWF and THF are very comparable, currently. Neither style has a dramatic advantage.

1. If glancing blows are simply added back to twitch-DPS, THF will experience a dramatic increase = unbalancing.
2. If the twitch speed increase is removed, then moving and stationary will be the same DPS per landed swing. I for one think that the continued presence of the ability suggests it is either intended or simply not going to be changed.
3. If (1) is enacted while nerfing eSoS, that is just really bad form given the effort required to get one.

With these in mind, I support the status quo.

[Theodores]

A thing that i don't understand is why people are so against twitching... It's a player skill that makes him more powerful. Would that mean that when you learn to use your strikes as a monk (example) perfectly to get the most dps out of it, your exploiting a bug? It took me a long time to master twitching and I still use it on my melee fvs because of the lack of feats. I see it more like developping a player skill than exploiting a bug.

[Kinerd]

The latter animations of the attack chain are supposed to be the most powerful. They are performed at a higher to-hit, and are only available to more skilled melee combatants (as measured by BAB and class). It is therefore reasonable to conclude that the developers would not intentionally design an animation chain that rewarded skipping them, as twitching does.

Regarding your comparison, the application of player skill is not an indication that an exploit is not occurring. I'm sure it takes quite a lot of skill to hack the kernel and all those other things that they did in Hackers (including but not limited to making Angelina Jolie look unattractive), but that would still be an exploit. Putting that aside, I don't feel that twitching is an exploit.

It looks ridiculous.

[oberon131313]

I for one think that the continued presence of the ability suggests it is either intended ...

I think that this is incredibly lazy thinking and ends up attempting to justify all sorts of exploitive behavior. (Not trying to claim that's what you are doing here)

I think that it hasn't changed simply because touching animations in general is risky business, and with the removal of glancing blows (which was increasing the dps in conjunction with twitching) it was deemed a "low enough issue" to warrant not having been touched since.

A thing that i don't understand is why people are so against twitching... It's a player skill that makes him more powerful. Would that mean that when you learn to use your strikes as a monk (example) perfectly to get the most dps out of it, your exploiting a bug? It took me a long time to master twitching and I still use it on my melee fvs because of the lack of feats. I see it more like developping a player skill than exploiting a bug.

Personally, I'm against it because it's exploiting the animation system. It is no different than the mod~1 machine gunning that used to happen...

[Shade]

The only class I know of that does higher twitch-DPS is fighter, and that's only against trash.

One can use some basic logic and further that analysys to all classes.

Why do Barbarians get more dps from standing still?
Glancing blows.
Why are barbs good at glancing blows?
Massive base damage, 100% bonus dice frenzy. High proc (20% on other dice)

Whats the 2nd best class at glancing blows?
Fighter.
Should ftr twitch?
Yes. Yes even vs bosses.
Cititation: DPS challenge in sig. See Krythans entry with flawless twitch execution.

Should other clases twitch?
Yes. Since they are generally weaker then ftrs at glancing blow dps.

But meh. Really lets end this Kinerd. We all know where its headed. and thats not the topic. Create a new topic if you wish to discuss it further please.

[Gulnar13]

There was no reason for this nerf in the first place.

And even less reason in u9 with the helpelss change. Since attacks while moving won't be worth using at all.

Stationary combat is boring. If I was into that I'd go play WoW. Return the glancing blow.

And since when reason is what guide the devs?
I always thought it was whining, annoyance and a three sided dice named "nerfy" with "arcane" "THF" and "TWF" on it's faces.

Anyway: signed. I stopped playing my barb after the glancin blow change hit the board. It's boring like hell now.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

In my opinion glancing blows should not have been removed from the game because what makes this game fun is the active combat. I'd much rather be running around actively repositioning against a horde of devils than stand there in place swing/swing/swinging without any skill or thought.

Should twich be able to generate a faster swing rate? No. But rather nerf the fun and unique part of this game, active combat, I fail to understand why the devs couldn't have used a swing cool down timer to keep track of where you were in your sequence. If you were on swing 2 and swing 3 shouldn't fire for 1.2 seconds than twitching shouldn't let you start a moving swing or new swing 1 sequence before 1.2 seconds goes by. I'm sure its slightly more complex than that, but you get the idea...they should code to fix the problem, not swing a general nerf bat.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Very unlikely.

As for most players - thats beyond there abilities. Turbine generally doesn't care much about what the top 5% of players do.

So flip this on its head ... your asking turbine to implement something that only effects 5% of the player base?

[Shade]

So flip this on its head ... your asking turbine to implement something that only effects 5% of the player base?

umm, you grossly misquoted me.

5%: Players who can accurately twitch to increase dps.

100% : Players who move while attacking.

What I'm asking for is for Turbine to make the game more fun for everyone.

Whatever that does to twitch, was quite honestly not a priority when I created this post.

Just everytime I post anything regarding THF, there are always my loyal fans who have to bring it up. Maybe I should of never demonstrated how to do it all the years ago. Seems I've created some monsters I can no longer control.

[Roziel_Longblade]

I never like the idea of taking advantage of an animation quirk to do more dps than designed by the game. Technically I still don't like it, but I admit to using it because it is there. Experienced players have more than enough advantages over new players.

In addition, moving to much always lowered melee capabilities in the game DDO is based on. Increasing DPS while moving, rather than decreasing it, is an unneeded departure from the game's roots.

I would be up for official and well publicized ways to get better positioning for mobs more easily if that ups the fun quotient.

[Shade]

Increasing DPS while moving, rather than decreasing it, is an unneeded departure from the game's roots.

WHAT?

The games roots? I will acknoledge that as a fellow founder you should be well aware of the games roots.. But how do you forget so quickly? The games roots.. Was always about moving. Always.

Here's some trivia about the original DDO.. The games very roots so to speak:

Attacks while moving never had a -4 to attack penalty. They all did glancing blows.
Archers had no penalties while moving either, and fired their bows at amazing speeds.

The solution?
Serious DPS boost on the 4th attack.
4th attack = DOUBLE CRITICAL THREAT. (Wasn't removed until around mod1/2)

Maybe this should be brought back. So should glancing blows.

It's not even a dps concern. Attacking while moving, for most players is a net dps loss. This is the case because of an update 4 change: Attack 2 while moving, is rather slow. Was a fair and needed fix. Glancing blows on 1st attack while moving? was fun, was not overpowered, was never needing a change.

The thing is, for the first attack as you approach a monster - there is no choice. You attack while moving. You should not be penalized so heavily for that.

It's just more fun. It's more realistic too: Wade into a group of enemies in real life wielding a massive axe? You can certainly hit more then 1.

Why not in ddo.

[BlackSteel]

O
Massive base damage, 100% bonus dice frenzy. High proc (20% on other dice)

hope you're aware that the 100% bonus dice on frenzy isnt WAI. and is slated to be fixed eventually, much like alot of other things.

[dkyle]

WHAT?

The games roots? I will acknoledge that as a fellow founder you should be well aware of the games roots..

Pretty sure he's talking about 3.5. In 3.5, the penalty for moving more than a little during a turn is a massive hit to damage output, due to not getting a full attack. DDO has never been that harsh, and it shouldn't be. But the principle that movement = less DPS is sound.

[Synthetic]

Why not just skip the THF feats if you don't feel like it's adding to your playstyle? No or few glancing blows means less reason for you to sit still.

[Roziel_Longblade]

Attacks while moving never had a -4 to attack penalty. They all did glancing blows.
Archers had no penalties while moving either, and fired their bows at amazing speeds.

The solution?
Serious DPS boost on the 4th attack.
4th attack = DOUBLE CRITICAL THREAT. (Wasn't removed until around mod1/2)

Maybe this should be brought back. So should glancing blows.

Well I was talking about 3.5 AND early DDO. While I am going to agree that the devs made moving important early on, they also penalized dps when doing so (I hit a few lvl10's in the first few weeks then moved on with occasional reappearances). That was in line with 3.5.

If twitch was to be given some kind advantage beyond what it is right now it would need to be official so there are not have's and have nots and not a blanket dps increase for all builds so those that did not use it would not be stigmatized.

I would like the idea of boosting the final attack in the sequence.

It's just more fun. It's more realistic too: Wade into a group of enemies in real life wielding a massive axe? You can certainly hit more then 1.

Why not in ddo.

I will not touch DDO vs Realism. I will say that something like twitch is only fun if you know how to use it. Make it easy to learn about and use for noobies and I agree it can be fun. If it does not have immediate, easy accessibility it becomes something vets can lord over noobs & noobies and a reason for pricks to exclude newer players from groups. Things that encourage vets to drive noobies from the game = bad.

[Kinerd]

One can use some basic logic and further that analysys to all classes.

Why do Barbarians get more dps from standing still?
Glancing blows.
Why are barbs good at glancing blows?
Massive base damage, 100% bonus dice frenzy. High proc (20% on other dice)

Whats the 2nd best class at glancing blows?
Fighter.
Should ftr twitch?
Yes. Yes even vs bosses.
Cititation: DPS challenge in sig. See Krythans entry with flawless twitch execution.

Should other clases twitch?
Yes. Since they are generally weaker then ftrs at glancing blow dps.

But meh. Really lets end this Kinerd. We all know where its headed. and thats not the topic. Create a new topic if you wish to discuss it further please.

There are two reasons why Krythan's entry is not informative to this issue.
1. It's only one entry. Without an entry of Krythan not twitching, there's nothing to compare it to.
2. Sobrien has no fortification, making him more analogous to trash than most raid bosses or portals.

When you say "other classes", I have to wonder which specific ones you mean. Paladins have 100% glancing blow processes on their Knight of the Chalice damage, making them more analogous to barbarians than fighters, and they do worse twitching. Rogues and monks are essentially restricted to quarterstaves, which twitch doesn't really work with. I suppose you could be talking about THF rangers, but that seems a little out there.

I think this conversation is fundamental to the topic. It matters to the analysis whether adding glancing blows to twitch is a dramatic increase in DPS, and it matters to the analysis whether twitch DPS is actually higher than non-twitch. If we base our reasoning on incorrect premises, surely we cannot expect the correct conclusion.

[krud]

/agreed

It was a lame attempt to fix the real problem, the shuffle twitch. Shuffle twitch =/= active combat.

remove the shuffle twitch, and bring back glancing blows!!!

[KillEveryone]

Removal of glancing blows while moving for THF was just stupid.

Critters typically are constantly moving so those three feats are pretty much useless.

If you are trying to flank to get flanking bonuses, you are moving so those three feats are pretty much useless.

As they currently are, they are only good for stationary bosses and I'll just load other feats that are more useful for the rest of the game unless you insist on waiting for a intim/hate tank that can lock down critters or a caster that can CC well.

If it was the animation that they were trying to nerf, they should have just changed the animation. If it really was the animation, the developers took a poor and easy way to fix things instead of doing the job right.

[Zerkul]

I'm more than Ok for Glancing blow on moving attack.

Seems I've created some monsters I can no longer control.

.

[quijenoth]

Removal of glancing blows while moving for THF was just stupid.

Critters typically are constantly moving so those three feats are pretty much useless.

If you are trying to flank to get flanking bonuses, you are moving so those three feats are pretty much useless.

As they currently are, they are only good for stationary bosses and I'll just load other feats that are more useful for the rest of the game unless you insist on waiting for a intim/hate tank that can lock down critters or a caster that can CC well.

If it was the animation that they were trying to nerf, they should have just changed the animation. If it really was the animation, the developers took a poor and easy way to fix things instead of doing the job right.

you know your probably right on the animation issue but fixing/changing animations for 1 race like the half-orc issue was one thing, doing that globally for all races is ALOT of work.

I see alot of people here asking to put it back to how it was but very few suggesting alternative solutions. the Devs obviously removed it for a reason (some say for lag, others to fix an exploit) but fundimentally it did impact the usefulness of a particular feat chain.

So now Ive summerised this thread time to add my pennith in.

Some people mentioned "lets add more value to mobility and spring attack" and perhaps that isnt a bad solution to glancing blows while moving. Perhaps if they changed mobility and spring attack to "toggle/triggered" feats that changed the attack animations for your toon.

Mobility, while active, would grant you the standard benefits to AC but while active your movement is slowed (by say 10%) while attacking. as soon as you stop attacking your movement would have to return to normal otherwise this would be too much like defencive stances. Tumbling while mobility is active performs the normal benefit (and animation) while granting a single round of attacks that allow glancing blows during the roll (no twitching is possible because your fixed into a single animation).

Spring Attack (with a new animation) becomes an instant (jump attack) that when activated moves you in the direction of your target (and performs a full attack with glancing blows when you reach your target). Spring attack also grants its existing passive benefit. think of it as a leap attack that blinks you to where-ever your target has moved too.

now I know these wouldnt be easy (or quick) to implement but at least it A) gives melees increased damage while moving, and B) adds value to some rather stale feats.

Thoughts?