Bring back glancing blows on moving attacks

[Asketes]

2. You are not qualified to say what is intended or not in this game.

Are any of us that aren't Turbine Developers?

Let's keep this on track here guys, less fighting and more getting our moving glancing blows back!

[dkyle]

By that reasoning, it should be perfectly defensible to disable offhand procs for TWF while moving as well. Both styles already get -4 to-hit while moving (except for tempests) -- why is the extra damage penalty for THF justified?

I should be clear: I don't think THF needs to do less DPS than it does currently while moving. I only think that, no matter what changes are made, THF moving should do less damage than THF stationary, as is the case with TWF. This could be accomplished by making sure the attack speed while moving is less than attack speed while stationary. If it already is, then fine. All that needs to be done then is to ensure that the animations do not allow for "shuffle" twitching.

The -4 to-hit is a meaningless penalty to DPS in the vast majority of the game. It should not be relied upon to balance moving vs. stationary attacking.

[Chai]

If the nerf was indeed due to shuffle twitch to increase attack rate, all they really had to do was put a one second timer on the animation to reset. If I stop my animation and restart it before the timer was up, it would just continue from the exact same point in the animation, and not restart the animation. Shuffle twitch problem solved.

This type of conjecture continuing on for years is what gets me the most. They should just grow a pair, come out and say they didnt intend for it, and nerf the animation if this is the case, and not the feat line itself.

The reason why I play THF more often is because I like the combat while moving aspect and I feel that this style has the advantage over TWF while moving. Spreadsheet gamers will banter that if you can run into the room, get into animation, and stay in animation, that TWF is more damage, but that isnt how this game works, save for a few boss fights. If we cant keep our benefits to damage while moving, why even have this THF combat style in this type of game at all?

[SisAmethyst]

This change as far as I remember came into the game together with the overall combat changes like that there is no more check on the second hand for TWF. Previously each hit hat to validate if a monster is in range, now this is only done for the main hand. That mean they rewrote the code that do position checks on combat hits.

For two stationary targets this is a pretty easy check, just calculate the distance between (x1, y1, z1) and (x2, y2, z2). If one is moving it already gets more complicated as you not only have to check a position (x, y, z) but as well the direction and speed of movement. Does the monster come closer, does it run away or pass by? If two objects are moving it even get more complicated (is A chasing B, do they run to each other, ...). While they worked on that it was maybe not that easy to add/keep the glancing blow calculations in the code changes, so they decided to drop it for now, and I doubt it will come back anywhere soon.

[Chai]

The -4 to-hit is a meaningless penalty to DPS in the vast majority of the game. It should not be relied upon to balance moving vs. stationary attacking.

This is only true when well geared. For the average Shroud farmer who doesnt run epics, that -4 to hit means something, especially when they do decide to take that next step and run epics, but dont have the gear yet.

[dkyle]

This is only true when well geared. For the average Shroud farmer who doesnt run epics, that -4 to hit means something, especially when they do decide to take that next step and run epics, but dont have the gear yet.

A game should be designed to be balanced even when optimized.

I also find relying on attack penalties undesirable because they impact the highest DPS classes the least, Barbs and Fighters, and serve to widen the gap between them and classes like Paladins.

I prefer an across the board percentage decrease in DPS while moving, to one that hits some classes harder than others.

[Chai]

I prefer an across the board percentage decrease in DPS while moving, to one that hits some classes harder than others.

If the nerf was indeed due to shuffle twitch to increase attack rate, all they really had to do was put a one second timer on the animation to reset. If I stop my animation and restart it before the timer was up, it would just continue from the exact same point in the animation, and not restart the animation. Shuffle twitch problem solved.

Then they could make the moving attack animation x% slower as when standing still. Instead they nerfed the entire feat line. If raid bosses in this game moved, I would have dropped all three of those feats from every single THF toon. The only thing keeping me using those feats are the fact that a small number of bosses stand still pretty much the entire fight.

[Nick_RC]

Whole heartedly agree. The ONLY classes worth taking the 2hf line on presently are kensai's and beserkers (and kensai its mainly because most people cant twitch - most think they can but typically lose themselves dps). Add the glancing blows on 2HF attacks and you open up a whole lot of possiblities. It makes the 2HF line stronger (which doesnt compete with 2wf unless ur toting ESOS or Xuum - bleh bleh 100% fort...whatever - on the whole it doesnt compare well) thereby allowing you to actually put some decent epic 1 handers in. Epic one handers are so craptastic that greensteel still prevails.

Its an active combat system - encourage it dont encourage boring autoattack - If those people who cant twitch cant - oh well.

N

[Cardtrick]

Mostly /signed. I want glancing blows to work while moving, definitely. (It even makes sense . . . you'd actually think there'd be more glancing blows while running around a group of enemies.) But I hate the shuffly "twitch" fighting that was previously so useful for THF fighters. I'm actually glad that glancing blows are currently gone while moving, just so I don't feel compelled to do that little dance.

The best thing would be to do as dkyle suggested -- bring back glancing blows while moving, but simultaneously fix the animations so the "twitch" exploit no longer increases DPS.

EDIT: to be clear, I enjoy "twitch fighting" in the sense of moving to avoid enemy attacks, actively managing aggro by running and striking, and so forth. It's a very real problem that the lack of glancing blows while moving makes this playstyle much more effective for TWF users than THF users. What I hate is the shuffly "twitch dance" involving deliberately moving repeatedly to break attack animations and thereby attack faster. It makes little sense, and is clearly an exploit of problems with the animation timing. I think both problems need to be resolved.

[dkyle]

If the nerf was indeed due to shuffle twitch to increase attack rate, all they really had to do was put a one second timer on the animation to reset. If I stop my animation and restart it before the timer was up, it would just continue from the exact same point in the animation, and not restart the animation. Shuffle twitch problem solved.

Then they could make the moving attack animation x% slower as when standing still. Instead they nerfed the entire feat line. If raid bosses in this game moved, I would have dropped all three of those feats from every single THF toon. The only thing keeping me using those feats are the fact that a small number of bosses stand still pretty much the entire fight.

I fully agree with this and have frequently posted similarly. I think that's a reasonable solution to the shuffle twitch problem.

Not sure why you think I disagree. In that post, I was only addressing the deficiencies of relying on a -4 attack to properly balance stationary DPS vs. moving DPS.

[Jendrak]

This change as far as I remember came into the game together with the overall combat changes like that there is no more check on the second hand for TWF. Previously each hit hat to validate if a monster is in range, now this is only done for the main hand. That mean they rewrote the code that do position checks on combat hits.

For two stationary targets this is a pretty easy check, just calculate the distance between (x1, y1, z1) and (x2, y2, z2). If one is moving it already gets more complicated as you not only have to check a position (x, y, z) but as well the direction and speed of movement. Does the monster come closer, does it run away or pass by? If two objects are moving it even get more complicated (is A chasing B, do they run to each other, ...). While they worked on that it was maybe not that easy to add/keep the glancing blow calculations in the code changes, so they decided to drop it for now, and I doubt it will come back anywhere soon.

It wasn't so much that they changed how hit detection works as much as got rid of a ton of calcs the server was doing by effectivly removing 20-80% of them (tempest excluded) to help with....lag (their reason not mine) . The glancing blows while moving were also removed completly for two reasons

1. This was how they reduced the number of cals for THF
2. Since it was introduced this was dubbed as an exploit of sorts (not bannable but not intended either)

[Khanyth]

/signed............. however:

>>I could be mistaken<<<

but I remember reading that one of the reasons why they got rid of glancing blows was for better game performance. Reading this jogged my memory that it might have had something to do with lag and that in someway, shape, or form, glancing blows was contributing to it.

Because of this blanket statement, I think the old form of glancing blows won't come back.

[Talesin]

/signed

Give us back our moving glancing blows and fix the animations so "shuffle-in-place" twitch doesn't increase DPS...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the majority of twitchers don't miss the extra DPS so much as the feeling that they can move around in combat and not get penalized for it. Give us back the ability to manage the fight and avoid damage by moving around.

Better player skill equaling same DPS with less incoming damage = a better game!

[oberon131313]

None was given, but I think it was focused towards reducing the efficacy of "shuffle in place" twitch THF.

That goal I fully support, but not their method. They should've fixed it by fixing the attack animations so that swapping between them no longer increases attack speed. Not by eliminating the whole point of several Feats and Enhancements.

THF should be like TWF: moving reduce DPS a bit, but doesn't fundamentally change how it works.

So, /signed, as long as "shuffle in place" twitch is killed in some other way.

I agree;

twitching was simply a way to artificially inflate your attack rate, just the exact same as machine gunning way back in the day used to do. Put back glancing blows when moving, but slow the attack swing on an interrupted chain (ie moving) to match non-moving.

[Riksha]

There was no reason for this nerf in the first place.

And even less reason in u9 with the helpelss change. Since attacks while moving won't be worth using at all.

Stationary combat is boring. If I was into that I'd go play WoW. Return the glancing blow.

yes and put the thf speed back up its ridiculous how much faster twf is then thf. they should have maybe 2 or 3 more attacks not 10.. i mean look it up in pnp thf is not that slow

[DagazUlf]

As always, I'm still on board for this. Give us our glancing blows while moving. Ideally, make it cost Spring Attack, but whatever, just please reconsider adding this back in. It really takes DDO into the ActionMMO realm which is exactly where DDO is superior.

[dkyle]

yes and put the thf speed back up its ridiculous how much faster twf is then thf. they should have maybe 2 or 3 more attacks not 10.. i mean look it up in pnp thf is not that slow

TWF has about 80% more attacks than THF. Which is the same as PnP at BAB 20 with GTWF. The whole point of TWF is to attack more frequently.

TWF attacks slightly faster, in terms of main hand attacks, than THF, but only by very little.

[Chai]

I fully agree with this and have frequently posted similarly. I think that's a reasonable solution to the shuffle twitch problem.

Not sure why you think I disagree. In that post, I was only addressing the deficiencies of relying on a -4 attack to properly balance stationary DPS vs. moving DPS.

Because you were basically saying it doesnt mean anything, when it actually does to anyone who isnt fully geared trying to run epics. To ~5% of the population +4 to hit may not mean anything, but I think as long as someone is within the D20, a 20% more miss chance sucks. Players have to BUILD for and WEAR GEAR for getting that to-hit bonus higher to make twitch combat while moving effective.

This is why I dont understand why Turbine would make a fast motion paced game, then nerf combat while moving. Thats like tossing a 4 banger into a Lambo.

As always, I'm still on board for this. Give us our glancing blows while moving. Ideally, make it cost Spring Attack, but whatever, just please reconsider adding this back in. It really takes DDO into the ActionMMO realm which is exactly where DDO is superior.

Yeap exactly. There are already enough games on the market where standing in one place for long periods of time and attacking is legit strategy. I dont play any of those for a reason, heh.

[xenobite]

I agree with OP, standing still with autoattack on is just plain boring, while twitching is fun.

[dkyle]

Because you were basically saying it doesnt mean anything, when it actually does to anyone who isnt fully geared trying to run epics.

I would say people not running epics, and people running epics with properly geared characters, together qualify as "vast majority". Of course the attack bonus applies sometimes. Just nowhere near as often to outweigh the "vast majority" of times where its' irrelevant

Game rules should account for the common cases, not just the rare cases.