Fix the small/medium guild renown bonus.

[emptysands]

It was never intended for the smallest guilds to be, by far the highest level guilds. It's broken.

Why? Who's intent?

From a RPG perspective a small group of elite Heroes are going to generate more renown than a large company of adventurers with a few elites.

[PopeJual]

Who cares how someone builds the guild they are in. If you don't like it, don't join. If someone wants to invite 1000 people, cool beans.

Would you be ok with losing xp if you didn't log on every day. its the same thing.

Who cares if someone is losing renown every day. If you don't like it, don't play DDO. If someone wants to lose renown every day, cool beans.

You seem very cranky today.

Anyway, if someone wants to be in a guild with 1000 different accounts, that's fine. They'll just have to deal with the renown loss that comes with that kind of bloat. I happen to prefer to think of DDO as a place to run fun quests and get to know good people instead of just racing to 100 so you can "win" with your guild. My guild has stalled at 63 for a while now because of decay. That's okay. I could jump ship and join a guild that is rediculously active. Instead, I stick with the people that I've grown to really like because they're my guild. The fact that they're also a bunch of good players with steadily improving new players mixed in is also a nice bonus.

A guild with 1000 accounts that don't know each other and doesn't have any significant sense of internal community isn't going to do any of those players any good.

[lunaticcat]

Why such a heavy-handed solution OP? The problem is not small/med guild renown bonus... the problem is not large guild renown decay...

The real secret to renown gain is active members. It's easier or more likely for a small guild to have 100% or nearly 100% active members who are questing/raiding almost every day. Mega-guilds that are close to 1,000 toons and 100s of accounts are likely to have a lot of inactive or less active members. If a mega-guild's members were 100% active, they would skyrocket to the top of the guild pile.

OP, you like math. Do the math. Is it really "easier" for 20 players to pull more renown than 200 players? If you had a 20 player guild and a 200 player guild and in each guild, each player pulls 5,000 base renown in trophies per day, that would be 100k vs 1,000k base renown gain per day. Small/med guild bonus and decay does NOT give anywhere near 10x an effective bonus.

What are you whining about? The system does not need to be tweeked just to reward pikers in large and mega guilds. If you want renown and the associated perks... be more active. Play the game more. (Don't recruit on Korthos island!)

Well Said keybreaker - the issue here is quality not quantity. I personally like the fact that smaller more active guilds are showing well. The whole mega-mind guild put down too many of the smaller great guilds that were out there. They had a huge jump in renown because of thier recruit anything tactics but now you see where activity and quality of activity is winning out over sheer mass.

OP /NOT Signed.

[rdasca]

Sorry Shade one of the few times I have to disagree with you.

/Not Signed

[jkm]

Oh you care enough to bump this thread again who are you fooling in regards to how much you care. You want to be #1, but that is not going to happen. Large guilds can reach 100 they just need to be filled with active players which is not the case on Khyber anyway in the large guilds oh well. Somebody could form a guild of the 100 best renown players on Khyber and they would smoke everybody else given enough time.

The problem is that a lot of the best renown guys have moved into small guilds for whatever reason. sicklilbunny's guild double deviants is progressing at 130k/day and will pass TFC some time next month.

[Keybreaker]

For the record, My guilds Comfortably into the 70's at this point,(Large Guild, No Bonus, High Decay) we really dont Need anything else... and I can see the system is broken.

I don't see the logical connection here. If your large guild has every amenity you need, and you are comfortable with the level of guild activity and social level... then isn't the current system working well?

No one ever said that every guild MUST make it to level 100. Depending on size and activity, every guild will reach a break even point where renown gain matches decay. If this break point is "comfortable" then that's great! If the guild wants more levels, then you have many options: be more active, encourage more renown generating activity, choose more renown over vendor trash, reduce the size of guild, etc.

the system is heaily weighted towards small guilds. Large guilds, even large Active Guilds have to struggle to reach high levels. And its even harder to maintain those levels.. Especial y when "Events" offer no Renown for days at a time.

Of the approximately 50,000 small guilds only a tiny fraction of 1% have made it to the highest levels. Over 80% of the large guilds are over level 50. The data does not support your speculation.

Also, no one required all players in large guilds to focus exclusively (or nearly exclusively) on the event for the entirety of both runs. If a guild really cared about renown, contingency plans for continuing to gain renown would have been made. If a guild didn't really care about renown... then why care about renown?

Source:

There were a total of 49451 guilds as of 3/30...

In other words, if you are in a small guild, chances are very, very small (less than 1%) that your guild is level 51 or higher. By contrast, if you are in a large guild, chances are very good (83.9%) that your guild is already level 51 or higher.

[unfiguroutable]

seems to me that the current decay system is to encourage GMs to recruit with care rather than use a big numbers means we are better system. I like the current system. I don't think it's broken it all. I think the decay is doing what it was intended to do. Mainly keep large crappy guilds from dominating the servers and allowing a small close knit well managed guild to be viable.

[Impaqt]

I don't see the logical connection here. If your large guild has every amenity you need, and you are comfortable with the level of guild activity and social level... then isn't the current system working well?

no, its not. There are more "Small and medium" guilds that have reached my level and higher, dont have to deal with the Renown Decay I do. The system is NOT equal. Whats the point of having a 100 level system if most guilds simply cannot make it to level 100? Renown decay makes no sense in the system. base lost renown on Failures.. Base it on Deaths... base it on aythingbut an arbitrary number based on how many accounts are in your guild...

No one ever said that every guild MUST make it to level 100. Depending on size and activity, every guild will reach a break even point where renown gain matches decay. If this break point is "comfortable" then that's great! If the guild wants more levels, then you have many options: be more active, encourage more renown generating activity, choose more renown over vendor trash, reduce the size of guild, etc.

"Reduce Guild Size"

See there. Thats where the BS starts.... It even being a "Reasonable Option" is offensive. Sorry friend that I've gamed with for 5 years. Ya just dont generate enough renown, I can do better without ya... Bye!

Of the approximately 50,000 small guilds only a tiny fraction of 1% have made it to the highest levels. Over 80% of the large guilds are over level 50. The data does not support your speculation.

Not sure when or where "Level 50" came to mean anything at all....Personally, I feel Level 70 should be the breakpoint.... Significantly different numbers if you use 50 instead of 70....

Also, no one required all players in large guilds to focus exclusively (or nearly exclusively) on the event for the entirety of both runs. If a guild really cared about renown, contingency plans for continuing to gain renown would have been made. If a guild didn't really care about renown... then why care about renown?

Source:

Who are you kidding? Turbine is always vague when it comes to letting people know if evens will come back. there is no option for anyone who wants to participate.

[Kmnh]

Remove guild levels and those silly buffs. They are bad for the game.

[Carpone]

I believe that the most active large guilds should end up at least even-leveld with the most active small guilds.

If large guilds were just as active as the small guilds, then they'd be level 100 already.

Small guilds pull ahead by millions and billions of renown points due to the design.

Using hyperbole when you're arguing facts takes away whatever credibility you think you have with your argument. The maximum renown amount for a level 100 guild is 50 million.

[jkm]

Not sure when or where "Level 50" came to mean anything at all....Personally, I feel Level 70 should be the breakpoint.... Significantly different numbers if you use 50 instead of 70....

So on Khyber -

8 Guilds above 70
4 are large (out of 16) 25%
3 are small (out of a bazillion) <1%
1 is a mix (was large to 45 then shed like 200 members to be small)

the 3 guilds just under the 70 barrier ALL LARGE

Large guilds have an inherent advantage in this system and by sheer momentum will attain a much higher average guild ranking that 80% of the small guilds in DDO.

[emptysands]

no, its not. There are more "Small and medium" guilds that have reached my level and higher, dont have to deal with the Renown Decay I do. The system is NOT equal. Whats the point of having a 100 level system if most guilds simply cannot make it to level 100? Renown decay makes no sense in the system. base lost renown on Failures.. Base it on Deaths... base it on aythingbut an arbitrary number based on how many accounts are in your guild...

Who said level 100 should be easy?

I'd say renown decay makes sense. If you have a large group of adventures and they generally aren't doing anything or taking the cash instead of renown - then they are just one among many.

[Impaqt]

So on Khyber -

8 Guilds above 70
4 are large (out of 16) 25%
3 are small (out of a bazillion) <1%
1 is a mix (was large to 45 then shed like 200 members to be small)

the 3 guilds just under the 70 barrier ALL LARGE

Large guilds have an inherent advantage in this system and by sheer momentum will attain a much higher average guild ranking that 80% of the small guilds in DDO.

Thats NOT what I'm talking about...

I'm talking about

On Khyber..

Speaking in terms if Guild Size...

Top 10. Only 3 are l70+

Top 25 brings that number up to 4.

The system encourages small guilds and discourages people from assembling large guilds.

Sarlona: 3 of the top 5 are Small
Argo: 3 of the top 5 are Medium
Ghalanda: 1 Small in the top 5
Khyber 3 out of top 5 are Small/Medium
Cannith 4 out of 5 Small/Medium
Thelanis 3 of the top 5 small/Medium
Orien 5 out of 5 small/Medium

Ghallanda really skews the numbers there, but if you cant see the trend.....

I also see people counting the thousands of players that form their own 1 man guild.. Most of which dont even play anymore...

[rocky0]

I have read through maybe half of this thread and have seen opinions for both sides. Yet, there is really only one major thing that comes to mind immediately, what difference does it make if a guild is in the top 5 or 10 of any server?? You get no bonus for this, I dont think, so why worry about it?? Like so many things in this game, to me, if all comes down to someone wanting to say they are the best or have the best gear or they are the most uber or whatever.

My guild is very, very small and we like it this way. We are very laid back in terms of how much time we play because real life is taking precedence over everything. My opinion is that the guilds who have the big memberships did so on their own choosing, so they could have all the airship can give. So do the other guilds as well but they shouldnt be punished because they arent as active or whatever.

The system is working the way it should and there shouldnt be any changes to it, in either way.

[MRH]

Actually , if anything, small guilds need a better bonus.

My small guild hasn't even hit 25 yet, and i am running all kinds of renown.

It is taking forever for my guild with my 5 chars to level the guild up.

its very easy for the large guilds to farm mass renown despite their decay. They have all the great ships with all the big buffs.

show some more love for the small fish in the sea why don't you


/NOT SIGNED

[Der_Incubo]

Why? Who's intent?

From a RPG perspective a small group of elite Heroes are going to generate more renown than a large company of adventurers with a few elites.

I agree with this.. just cause me and my roomate play entirely too much we should have to join one of the "invite every nonguilded player in harbor" guilds to get shipbuffs instead of the aforementioned play too much in our own guild?

And its not like it goes up that fast.. specially in the 40s (TRing and goin back to the 50 (200) bonus all the time might be why it seems to go slow tho)..

[moops]

Thats NOT what I'm talking about...

I'm talking about

On Khyber..

Speaking in terms if Guild Size...

Top 10. Only 3 are l70+

Top 25 brings that number up to 4.

The system encourages small guilds and discourages people from assembling large guilds.

Sarlona: 3 of the top 5 are Small
Argo: 3 of the top 5 are Medium
Ghalanda: 1 Small in the top 5
Khyber 3 out of top 5 are Small/Medium
Cannith 4 out of 5 Small/Medium
Thelanis 3 of the top 5 small/Medium
Orien 5 out of 5 small/Medium

Ghallanda really skews the numbers there, but if you cant see the trend.....

I also see people counting the thousands of players that form their own 1 man guild.. Most of which dont even play anymore...

Do you have a a different board than I do-- I see 6 large guilds in the Khyber top 10, and 8 guilds with more than 170.

[Impaqt]

Do you have a a different board than I do-- I see 6 large guilds in the Khyber top 10, and 8 guilds with more than 170.

Most Populated Guilds. Sort by Members.

[Keybreaker]

Khyber 3 out of top 5 are Small/Medium

Do you have a a different board than I do-- I see 6 large guilds in the Khyber top 10, and 8 guilds with more than 170.

1. WanderLust	                	80	26006434	90
2. Prophets of the New Republic		79	24867038	183
3. Elite Raiders	                77	23624912	174
4. The Helpers Guild	        	75	21112848	624
5. Ransack	                       	75	21925985	516
6. Forgotten Souls	               	73	19527245	331
7. The Free Companions	        	71	17961502	556
8. Dragonblood	                	70	17425199	70
9. Loreseekers	                	69	16878793	867
10. The Dragon Order of Arcanix		69	16448835	584

11. Mature Adventures Club	       	66	14690830	861

You're both right. Although as mentioned before, we can only guestimate guild size (modified account size) based on number of toons, but in the top 10 (indeed top 11) guilds on Kyber... only 2 appear to be small guilds.

You can fudge the numbers/sample all you want... but you can't create a bias that doesn't exist.

[moops]

Most Populated Guilds. Sort by Members.

I actually think that the numbers represent our server quite well. Our server is majority Small and medium guilds--Most of the Large guilds are in the Top 50. The large guilds that are not in the top 10, well its because of who they are, and how they play--some are very casual fun guilds that like to take an hour or so to run a shroud on normal.

The small and medium guilds that are in the top 25 are comprised of some of the best players on the server. A couple of the large guilds in the top 25 are very hot and cold-running something with their members could rock, or it could take you 10 - 15 mins longer, or joining their raids always has a chance of failure. And one Large Guild in the Top 25 , is just GOd awful, its a newer guild that mass recruited, and tho they leveled fast, they have stopped, and believe me they deserve what they are getting--they are so crazy bad I have had to leave quests and reform, and I don't usually do something like that.

Some of the small guilds on our server specifically are working only for renown. .. . While Ive grouped with people from the larger guilds who never take renown for their end rewards.

I think we need to look at overall percentages on our servers ( ie how many small, medium, large guilds), and look at it that way, and not at small samplings. If all the large guilds on Sarlona were stuck 10 pages in, Id think it a bigger problem, but they are not.


Now that said, I think the Decay does need to be reduced for large guilds