Fix the small/medium guild renown bonus.

[Hendrik]

Just limit the level that a small/medium guild can attain.

Small Guilds, those getting the same bonus, can only reach L25. Medium bonus guilds, 65 and Large Guild have no limit.

That or the size bonus needs to be adjusted downward.

[maddmatt70]

I'll agree with this when epic quests give renown in their end reward lists and have the proper number of chests (von6 has more renown opportunities on elite than epic; Lailat has only one high level chest). We tracked renown for a few months and the people who came up way ahead were the levelers, not the ones playing endgame. I think that leveling is valuable, but running a level 16-18 quest should not be so much more profitable than a level 20+ quest.

Efficiency is a pretty sick thing if you can run a number of raids in a short amount of time you can rack up renown it is just not all raids are good renown. Epic chronoscope, Shroud, Elite Tower, etc., can give some serious renown for the time spent. Epic chest farming also gives a huge amount of renown. Some epic quests also can average a chest every two minutes which is pretty sick too. I do not really agree with your analysis here other then von6 and Dq2 suck for renown.

Finally, it's just not true that casual gamers will not have uber endgame loot. DDO does not require that much grind, especially if you are utilizing your time well and you're not running 13 toons.

Oh it makes a difference if you start taking breaks you fall behind.

I think and this is a different discussion that having 13 toons has alot of power in essence. For me I can trot out my ac char for TOD, 3 different bards depending on party compostion, a ranged char, cleric, sorc, evoker fvs, etc. Really that player with one or two character is dependent on the other players to fit all the other parts, but with 13 characters you can make a better party because you can provide whatever is missing to the optimum (we do not just grab any bard but have a healer bard or heavy melee bard) so even if your character is 95% of the top flight equivalent the overall party is better because you can provide the specialist for the occasion. I like making the best party possible because I find that is fun.

[voodoogroves]

Just limit the level that a small/medium guild can attain.

Small Guilds, those getting the same bonus, can only reach L25. Medium bonus guilds, 65 and Large Guild have no limit.

That or the size bonus needs to be adjusted downward.

Yeah this won't work and keep most small guilds.

Guild ship +2 buffs, exp. boosts and the others (3 dragons, etc.) are pretty dang useful. If a small guild doesn't have the hope of attaining them, the casual-yet-not-dumb players would leave the small guilds.

[maddmatt70]

Just limit the level that a small/medium guild can attain.

Small Guilds, those getting the same bonus, can only reach L25. Medium bonus guilds, 65 and Large Guild have no limit.

That or the size bonus needs to be adjusted downward.

Why? I see no reason to change the current system. The only thing that needs to be changed is token turn in or something of that nature. Reward productivity. Half the guilds in the top ten on Khyber are small and the other half large so it seems to be working fine to me especially since small guilds vastly outnumber large guilds on Khyber.

[Bargol]

My guild is a small 8 person/account guild. We are pretty close and all extremely active.

We all have lives, family, etc. but are about to hit level 50. I have noticed that we surpassed some medium sized guilds. However, as others have said we quest everyday and often take renown over other end rewards and are mindful that if we want the next milestone for buffs etc. its up to the 8 of us to get the guild there.

I think thats the difference between a small guild and a large guild. In a large guild many wouldn't feel so completely responsible for the guild level.

[Beethoven]

The renown system rewards productivity which I applaud.

It does initially and I agree the system works pretty well up until the high guild levels. However, productivity takes a back seat to managing decay once you hit the high 70s/low 80s and there I think is where the current system is flawed.

All Guild Rank resembles is activity per account. The only way to manage this for maximum efficiency is by removing accounts that don't make the cut. The problem is it drives another wedge between hardcores and casuals.

[Hendrik]

Why? I see no reason to change the current system. The only thing that needs to be changed is token turn in or something of that nature. Reward productivity. Half the guilds in the top ten on Khyber are small and the other half large so it seems to be working fine to me especially since small guilds vastly outnumber large guilds on Khyber.

Agreed.

Remove the size bonus and reward guilds for being productive and not being small.

[maddmatt70]

Agreed.

Remove the size bonus and reward guilds for being productive and not being small.

This does not reward member productivity whatsoever it just rewards having more guilds members. When guild renown first started or close to it for a month or two the small guild bonus did not work. There was not a small guild in the top 25 on Khyber. Everybody was merging and small guilds started to get gobbled up, and guilds like Epitaph were in vogue (Harbor guilds).

[Bargol]

Agreed.

Remove the size bonus and reward guilds for being productive and not being small.

How could this be accomplished? Give renown for accounts logging in? Playing an hour? Seems like the current system is/was just the easiest way to balance things.

[Eladiun]

Decay needs to be reduced for larger guilds and
bonuses need to be reduced for small and medium guilds.

Once you hit Level 70 the decay for large guilds is just insane. It more about keeping even than actually
getting to the next level.

The system is broken and does need a little math love on the formulas.

Agreed

[krackythehoodedone]

Funny you should mention that Shade because i was going to post something similar.

But when i looked across all the servers it doesnt pan out quite like that. Some of the bigger guilds are on top on two of them.

I think it is more to do with the type of players. When you get a relatively small group of dedicated ''hardcore'' type players they tend to stick together. They are bound to generate more renown per player than a more casual group.

I am not so sure this is a bad thing. Smaller guilds are more fragile and will come and go. The bigger guilds are going to have a much broader cross reference of players and be more relaxed and more socially based and therefore won't keep up with your ''hardcore'' raiding guilds.

Does it really make much difference being level 100? I mean by 80 odd you have almost everything anyway.

In terms of it being broken again i'm not to sure it is. The only criticism i think i might make is it appears to be creating more of a gulf between the more casual player and the so called elite

I have a toon in a 78 member guild and a 900. Whilst the 900 powered away to start with and is still pretty close to the top i can see it bottoming out at 80 ish whislt the smaller one is catching up fast and will eventually go all the way.

I suppose we will see if it working ''as intended'' if a few small nerfs to small guild renown are made to reign them back.

I am sure their are a number of critical points or sweet spots of number of accounts/members that maximise renown which others can look into. Number crunching isn't my thing but i'm sure Guild Leaders will become a lot cuter with structuring their guilds.

Lastly and off topic i don't see why they didn't build renown into the recent event. A lot of guilds have taken a major hit this week with most of their players in The Cove

[jydog100]

Epic chest farming also gives a huge amount of renown

In a small guild it can be it can be a HUGE amount

[t0r012]

Agreed.

Remove the size bonus and reward guilds for being productive and not being small.

the current system does reward for being productive not being small.
to have a high level guild you have to be productive. it isn't like those small guilds aren't doing anything to achieve their rank just every single member of that guild is busting their butt all the time.
Where as with big guild it doesn't matter of your working hard all the time as you have a gazillion other members to gain renown if you feel like being lazy for a while.

In a small guild you have to be constantly working cause there aren't many there to do the work where as with a big guild there are tens if not hundreds more to help pick up the slack.
If a 6 person guild loses a player for a while 1/6th of their renown gathering power gone , if a 100 member guild losses a player thats only 1% or 1/100th. Which is more of an issue?

=================================

On to Shades post

Not going to name any names, but we all know all the all the hardcore guilds that go so far as to kick people out of there guilds in the name of maintaining a small/medium guild renown bonus. Not fun for the players who got kicked out.. And really not fair to the big guilds that symply cant keep up because the bonus are so extreme.

if you want and are accepted in to a guild like that you probably should know already that they will expect you to contribute your share, otherwise goodbye.

It discourages us somewhat to have large guilds, and having large guilds imo is more fun, especially in a very community-based game like this

just because you think it is more fun doesn't mean everyone else does. just like many don't think that playing to your advanced level and commitment that you put in to improving your characters. To many that level is not "fun".
Some might think it is more fun to have a very small committed group that they know they can depend on to pull their weight. just as I am sure there is a small group of "friends" in your guild that you would prefer to run with who you would choose over other guild mates if you had a choice just as you would choose guild mates over PuGs.

[Anthios888]

Efficiency is a pretty sick thing if you can run a number of raids in a short amount of time you can rack up renown it is just not all raids are good renown. Epic chronoscope, Shroud, Elite Tower, etc., can give some serious renown for the time spent. Epic chest farming also gives a huge amount of renown. Some epic quests also can average a chest every two minutes which is pretty sick too. I do not really agree with your analysis here other then von6 and Dq2 suck for renown.

Oh it makes a difference if you start taking breaks you fall behind.

I think and this is a different discussion that having 13 toons has alot of power in essence. For me I can trot out my ac char for TOD, 3 different bards depending on party compostion, a ranged char, cleric, sorc, evoker fvs, etc. Really that player with one or two character is dependent on the other players to fit all the other parts, but with 13 characters you can make a better party because you can provide whatever is missing to the optimum (we do not just grab any bard but have a healer bard or heavy melee bard) so even if your character is 95% of the top flight equivalent the overall party is better because you can provide the specialist for the occasion. I like making the best party possible because I find that is fun.

On people who play less than 80 hours a week:

OK Matt, my wife and I are "dependent" players because we each only have 4-5 toons equipped to the hilt with claw sets, epic marilith chains, swords of shadows, red dragon armor, abishai sets, etc. And some weeks we might average less than an hour a night until the weekend rolls around and we get maybe one or two gaming sessions. I guess I just don't contribute to the "best party possible." So be it.

Sure, it can be kind of tough to run just one alt and always be relevant across content, but with even 2-5 characters, you can still be the best in slot several times over. There's nothing wrong with people like you that devote enough time to this game to have a zillion toons, but not everyone has to play that way.

On renown being a reward for productivity:

Thanks for the lecture on epic and raiding. As for renown, I wish you would go read my post again. I am happy with the renown gains my guild has, but simply pointed out that your argument about "efficiency" and "productivity" is not always parallel to what people are running for their endgame toons. You take your efficient perfect parties and ransack out some of the quests in Amrath, Dreaming Dark, and Inspired Quarter, and compare to your renown gain in a typical night of epic. The renown system rewards mindless grinding more than many legit endgame activities, simply because of some unfortunate bugs or flaws in the system that I alluded to. It doesn't mean that epic isn't decent loot if you're running nonstop, it's just a fact that end rewards in epic quests are not a source of renown so even if you are running them just as fast as a normal quest, you're always going to be missing that piece. I'm not going to get down on someone because he is active in the "wrong endgame quests."

You admitted yourself that the system favors leveling and non-completion runs and that not all productive gaming is treated the same away by the renown system. I'm simply pointing out a few things about the system that do not directly relate to productivity and offered some suggestions for how it could be more about active players. I think I could have been spared the garbage about how I am playing the game wrong or something... you know what I run.

I have a really hard time believing that you tailor your playtime to renown gains, anyway. That would be boooring.

[Thrudh]

There's nothing to fix in my opinion...

I think the small/medium guild bonuses work perfectly...

Like even the OP says, who cares as long as you can get to guild level 60 or 70?

And the current system lets all guild sizes make that goal.

[jkm]

you can tell the people who skipped right over vansh's post.

the only thing that probably needs to be revisited is the diminishing returns on renown above a certain amount per day. having a 5 person guild generate 250k NET renown in a day is a little much.

[maddmatt70]

OK Matt, my wife and I are "dependent" players because we each only have 4-5 toons equipped to the hilt with claw sets, epic marilith chains, swords of shadows, red dragon armor, abishai sets, etc. And some weeks we might average less than an hour a night until the weekend rolls around and we get maybe one or two gaming sessions. I guess I just don't contribute to the "best party possible." So be it.

Sure, it can be kind of tough to run just one alt and always be relevant across content, but with even 2-5 characters, you can still be the best in slot several times over. There's nothing wrong with people like you that devote enough time to this game to have a zillion toons, but not everyone has to play that way.

Hey this is a side bar conversation. I have heard alot of arguments for why a player should just focus on 1-3 characters and some other arguments for why somebody should focus on 6 characters or so. Well I was providing an argument for why focusing on 10-13 has merit. That last 5% dps, dc, whatever gain with greater focus often can be overcome and surpassed by having a better specialization in a 6 person or 12 person party. Alot of people want to simplify this game and make it about dps and healing, but that is not all what the game is solely about or you can argue that there are many facets to dps and healing all if which can not be addressed in 1 or 2 characters. I also like the nerf/buff flexibility in a game like this. If one character is on the nerf side then I just play somebody that got a buff more frequently at that time. Trring can alleviate this somewhat, but it sure is nice just to turn to another character instead of spending the time trring.

Thanks for the lecture on epic and raiding. As for renown, I wish you would go read my post again. I am happy with the renown gains my guild has, but simply pointed out that your argument about "efficiency" and "productivity" is not always parallel to what people are running for their endgame toons. You take your efficient perfect parties and ransack out some of the quests in Amrath, Dreaming Dark, and Inspired Quarter, and compare to your renown gain in a typical night of epic. The renown system rewards mindless grinding more than many legit endgame activities, simply because of some unfortunate bugs or flaws in the system that I alluded to. It doesn't mean that epic isn't decent loot if you're running nonstop, it's just a fact that end rewards in epic quests are not a source of renown so even if you are running them just as fast as a normal quest, you're always going to be missing that piece. I'm not going to get down on someone because he is active in the "wrong endgame quests."

You admitted yourself that the system favors leveling and non-completion runs, so why all the garbage about how I am playing the game wrong? I have a really hard time believing that you tailor your playtime to renown gains, anyway.

Oh I do not tailor my game to renown games and find it funny for some of the groups that do. The best example of this is running elite shrouds why on earth would somebody waste their time hitting that one up. What is more to the point I can not help but notice that alot of top renown getters at least on my server are also some of the best end game/epic guilds so I was challenging some of your assertions.

[Junts]

Hey this is a side bar conversation. I have heard alot of arguments for why a player should just focus on 1-3 characters and some other arguments for why somebody should focus on 6 characters or so. Well I was providing an argument for why focusing on 10-13 has merit. That last 5% dps, dc, whatever gain with greater focus often can be overcome and surpassed by having a better specialization in a 6 person or 12 person party. Alot of people want to simplify this game and make it about dps and healing, but that is not all what the game is solely about or you can argue that there are many facets to dps and healing all if which can not be addressed in 1 or 2 characters. I also like the nerf/buff flexibility in a game like this. If one character is on the nerf side then I just play somebody that got a buff more frequently at that time. Trring can alleviate this somewhat, but it sure is nice just to turn to another character instead of spending the time trring.



Oh I do not tailor my game to renown games and find it funny for some of the groups that do. The best example of this is running elite shrouds why on earth would somebody waste their time hitting that one up. What is more to the point I can not help but notice that alot of top renown getters at least on my server are also some of the best end game/epic guilds so I was challenging some of your assertions.

You know, one of the posters on this forum who most often tries to simplify the whole game to dps and healing is posting in this thread, too ..

Oh wait, its you.

[grodon9999]

People actually intentionally farm renown? With all the other grind in this game who has time to do that?

[maddmatt70]

You know, one of the posters on this forum who most often tries to simplify the whole game to dps and healing is posting in this thread, too ..

Oh wait, its you.

Then you misunderstand me Junts. Go ahead and examine my characters in my signature.