Air elemental knockdowns

[little_me]

yes, popular topic, but seemingly so far has spent so much time getting knocked down as me.

this should also close up all earlier misconception threads that fill the forum and man, were they numerous?

whirlwind effect, DC of 20, STR check, fail, knockdown (and sometimes around)

so, you have str mod of 28, +9 bonus, get beaten around.

someone has str mod of 22, gets beaten around.
someone else, has str of 21. doesn't. what is the logic?

and by doesn't, i mean, does NOT. 100% of time, total, absolute immunity!!
game REFUSES to try to.

actually, str mod means nothing as far as that goes.

yes, none. you can have 30 str and still get beaten around the bush, if..

your base+tomes eaten+level ups+enhancements are not over 20 (not sure of ALL enhancements, i don't have a million alts.)

20 total, you get knocked.
21 elementals do not try.

if you have 20 or below, ingame and in combat log, lot of whirlwind effects are tried.
if you have 21 or over, none.

which likely results in something in code, about not trying if it is useless:
DC of 20, minimum roll of 1, 21, if str this or over, don't try, can't succeed.

even if DC is for str BONUS, not base.

so far, that seems to work as far as i've managed to test and get it tested.


let the bug be fixed and knocking down resume!! air elementals are weak if they don't push you around a bit. this ignore me completely thing is not appealing.


and no, this is not applicaple to trips, stomps, marilith freight trains or tail swipes.

This is as far as i know, ISOLATED case, dealing with air elementals and their knockdown aura and why you, you and you are knocked down and you are not.

[Humperdink]

The average air elementals knock down ability used to be based on your strength or dexterity, whichever was higher. And then a balance check to get back up successfully. A while back they changed it to a Reflex save which is why they became way less powerful for the most part. Now I've seen some djinn that go into a whirlwind-like state (the ones in Running with the Devils for example) and they still do use a stat check, not a reflex check. I'm not sure what you're experiencing. Is there a specific monster you're using to test?

[Jiirix]

[QUOTE=Humperdink;3667736]The average air elementals knock down ability used to be based on your strength or dexterity, whichever was higher. And then a balance check to get back up successfully. A while back they changed it to a Reflex save QUOTE]

Thanks for the info, that explains why my cleric is on his back that often. My STR is a lot higher then my reflex save.

[Sarisa]

For the normal Whirlwind knockdown (not Gust of Wind), I noticed that when you have a shield, no matter what your STR/DEX/Reflex is, you get knocked all over the place.

Moment I got rid of the shield, no issues at all, on either my cleric or wizard (sometimes uses a Skyvault).

[WielderofGigantus]

I have found it interesting, that my sorcerer, who has 14 strength, never gets knocked around or knocked down, absolutely never. On the other hand, my cleric, who has 20 strength and uses a shield, gets knocked around and knocked down like crazy.

I never thought that a using a shield would make any difference.

[Sarisa]

My Cleric used to be knocked all over the map in Reaver's Fate, as I used an upgraded Light and Darkness. It was so bad that I got a Renard's Elegant Hat to use in there.

Once I got better caster daggers and put away the shield, I noticed I no longer needed the hat at all. Did a few tests and it seems that wearing a shield triggers the old style pre-nerf Air Ele behaviour.

Tried it again on my new little caster who carries a Skyvault to shield block in AoE's. With the shield, knocked around. Without, never touched.

As for Gust of Wind, I don't know of anything to stop that besides saves. My little caster is a halfling wiz/rogue, so I do get knocked down but not anywhere near as much as a friend's halfling Cleric.

[little_me]

hmm, shields, i didn't realize air elementals HATE shields.

no shield, my cleric isn't knocked around. at all. and 14 str isn't "high"

shield? yes. it's str based check, dc20, so fails a lot.

my fighter (thf) no shield, no problems, as in, not attacked by knockdown at all.
equips a shield, a LOT of attacks. due to high str, a LOT of saves also.


so, game mechanic hates shields? or just shield bearing haters?

while it IS true that big plank like that gets thrown around in strong wind, like a sail does, this game isn't planned THAT realistically, is it?

[joke]
maybe removing boots makes you "sure footed" and immune to trips?
[/joke]

[Phidius]

That explains Precious getting thrown around like a rag doll after he started using the Brigand's Cutlass and shield weapon set to intim the Reaver a while back.

Here's my prediction...

1. Turbine will modify the code so that going shield-less will no longer protect from the Air Elies
2. Turbine will remove the Air Elemental from the Summon Monster VI spell... but only on our spell, not the mobs.

[little_me]

and turbine will keep twf and thf people immune to air elemental knockdown?

isn't shield+sword style supposedly "weaker" more out of pace in dps and stuff? so it stands to reason to either fix it totally or... learn why mobs get knocked around, they do not have shields, do they?

[Krelar]

Obviously the shield acts like a sail, catching the wind, and blows you over.

[Humperdink]

Bug confirmed. Dual weapons in hand and it's a reflex save all day. Equip a shield and weapon and it becomes the old knockdown mechanic of str or dex stat check.

And it resulted in a great picture of my bard flying through the air...

[little_me]

yes.. but isn't air elemental knockdown WAI?

thus, lets start petition to nerf the twf and thf peoples immunity, or rather, make the game target them also. since for some reason, they are not even targeted by said knockdown attempt.

[Humperdink]

Sometimes keeping track of game mechanics in DDO can make one's head explode. I had to look back at my testing from 2007 and here's what it says:

Just out of curiousity I took my 14th level dex fighter out into the desert to take on the named air elemental and his minions. Basic stats:

Dex- 30 (+10)
Reflex save- 25
Balance skill- 33


From combat log:

(Combat): You attempt to save versus knockdown. You roll a 2 (+10): dexterity failure!
(Combat): You attempt to save versus whirlwind. You roll a 12 (+25): save!
(Combat): You attempt to save versus knockdown. You roll a 14 (+33): balance success!

So it looks like the first check is the trip mechanism, even though it's called knockdown- 1d20 + your dex or str modifier. The second check is against your reflex save. I'm guess this is to see if you're tossed around or not. The third check is against your balance skill to see if you can get up from being "knocked down".

So there were two distinct attacks by the Air Elemental. The knockdown one which is 1d20 + str/dex modifier (whichever is higher) to see if you end up on your butt. The whirlwind ability is the one that throws you back and away from the elemental and that is a reflex save. At some point post Update 1 (when the game went free-to-play in September 2009) the knockdown attack was removed from air elementals. At this point I cannot recall if this was an intended decision by the developers, or a bug. I could of sworn it was a stated game change but so far any searches in the forums, release notes, and DDO wiki doesn't reveal anything. Where's Mr. Cow when you need him?

[Humperdink]

I went out into the desert with my sorcerer for more testing. He is at a base 16 dexterity and 11 reflex save when stripped of gear and buffs. I'm getting inconsistent test results though. Upon initially equipping a shield the knockdown attacks start. But after a while they stop. And occasionally I equip my shield and get no knockdown attacks. Also have to keep in mind that dungeon scaling affects different roll saves. Think I'm going to have to go into the Reaver raid and check as no dungeon scaling applies.

Edit: Did some further testing in Gianthold Reaver raid just by myself with my sorcerer:

-Whirlwind is a Reflex save. If you fail the save you experience bludgeoning damage.

-Knockdown is still a 1d20 + str/dex modifier. If you fail the roll and fall down, it's still a balance check to get back up. I only experienced knockdown with shield equipped, no other times.

-Gust of wind has no saving throw against it's effect that I could see. No combat log entry, no die roll, no blue hexagon overhead to indicate a successful save. I don't know if Freedom of Movement or Remove paralysis negates this.

I don't know if the removal of the knockdown ability on air elementals is a bug or working as intended.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

It would be great to get official feedback on this issue from Turbine.

Mod 9 update 3 release notes do state that "Air elementals are now slightly less annoying".

This was supposed to be a fix to air elementals, which was the most broken monster in the game in my opinion.

Air elies are closer to the pnp definition now however they clearly arent working proper.

Great work Hump, btw

[tihocan]

Of course, wielding a shield makes it harder to keep your balance!

[Sarisa]

Gust of Wind, at least according to the d20 SRD, has a fortitude negates save. Reference.

Small creatures (halfling players) being knocked down is working right, just it doesn't have a save like the SRD suggests when cast by an Air Ele. I don't know if the save is present when cast by a player, I'll have to test later.

The Slow aspect isn't in the SRD, but I believe it's an interpretation of this line for our different physics/gaming system:
Medium creatures are unable to move forward against the force of the wind.

[rokes]

I have found it interesting, that my sorcerer, who has 14 strength, never gets knocked around or knocked down, absolutely never. On the other hand, my cleric, who has 20 strength and uses a shield, gets knocked around and knocked down like crazy.

I never thought that a using a shield would make any difference.

Exactly the same thing here ! I just noticed it now that you said it. My sorcerer has never been knocked down by it

[Humperdink]

It would be great to get official feedback on this issue from Turbine.

Mod 9 update 3 release notes do state that "Air elementals are now slightly less annoying".

This was supposed to be a fix to air elementals, which was the most broken monster in the game in my opinion.

Air elies are closer to the pnp definition now however they clearly arent working proper.

Great work Hump, btw

Gah! Thank you Leslie. It was bugging the cr@p out of me that I couldn't find that release note.

Of course, wielding a shield makes it harder to keep your balance!

Very true Tihocan. A player may have their balance skill modified depending on the type of shield. But remember, balance is only ever used to get back up, not to fall down. This is not the cause of what we are witnessing here.