So, how bad is the firewall nerf, really...

[protokon]

My original thought-process when looking over the spell changes post was "This Firewall change, it is bad..." like most people. But, I also decided that it really isn't fair to not consider all changes, not just that one, to help balance the game a little.

For instance, do people really think casters should be able to run around soloing epic quests with mass hold / dreamsplitter, mass holding them in a firewall, ect...Several exceptional gamers even completed the Epic DQ2 raid as a solo caster (of course a broken spell also allowed that, doubt it is do-able now). The biggest change that I absolutely don't agree with, under any circumstances, is not allowing extend spell to be used on it - or other persistent AoE's. But that is another topic, another argument..Let's discuss the math behind the scenes to really see how bad the "nerf" is. The following is a presentation of Sorcerer-oriented numbers to compare our current system now to the new system and changes - I won't be calculating damages for a wizard yet (which I have the feeling is going to 'really' hurt).

Help me out here, I am almost certain my math is not 100% correct so I will be posting my exact calculations and will adjust if anyone corrects me on it:

Pre-Update 9 changes

-here is what firewall currently is capable of doing, I am only posting calculations for a level 20 caster with a few key pieces of gear to maximize fire damage (because I am mostly concerned about epic content).

Wall of Fire - 2d6 +1 per caster level (max level 20).

Items, Feats and Enhancements that effect wall of fire damage:
-100% increase - maximize feat
-50% increase - empower feat
-40% increase - sorcerer enhancements
-50% increase - superior potency item
-20% increase - sorc capstone

Crit Multiplier variables:
-2.25x - sorcerer enhancements
-0.5x - rakhir's set bonus.
-9% - sorcerer enhancements
-9% - greater arcane lore item
-5% - rakhir's set (Don't know if this stacks so I am not including it in calculations yet)

Ok, so those are all the variables currently pre-update 9 that I know of, that will affect firewall damage. Let's apply all of them to the 2d6+20 to see how much damage is currently outputted:

22-32 base damage

22 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)) * (1+ 0.4(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)) = 115.5
32 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)) * (1+ 0.4(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)) = 168

critical damage (each number applied by the 2.75x multiplier)
317.625 - 462 critical hit

Replacing potency with eardweller(100% increase over 50%):

143 - 208 normal hit
393.25 - 572 on crit

raw damage, not including any fire resistance:

115.5 - 168 per tick
317.625 - 462 critical hit
635.25 - 924 versus undead (on crit)

ear dweller:
143 - 208 normal hit
393.25 - 572 on crit
786.5 - 1,144 versus undead


Now let's be honest, those numbers look fairly broken (math updated). let's examine how firewall is affected in Update 9 with the proposed changes:
===============================================
new update 9 calculations with PRE's and firewall nerf
===============================================
Here are the new factors to consider for firewall changes:
- +2 to caster level when casting fire spells (with fire savant) +1 to maximum caster level - bypass 5 points of fire resistance
- +2 additional caster level when casting fire spells (fire savant II) +1 additional maximum caster level added - bypass 10 points of fire resistance
-awaken elemental weakness: fire
benefit: you are able to curse an enemy, increasing fire damage they take by 15%. this effect can stack with itself up to 5 times (5sp, 20 second cooldown, 30 second duration)
so far, looks like a pretty nice addition to damage...let's look at fire savant II now and see what it adds to the table:
+2 additional caster level when casting fire spells (didn't see that coming) +1 additional maximum caster level added - bypass 15 points of fire resistance
heat death ability - fort save or take 2,000 points of fire damage due to boiling blood. 50SP, 60 second cooldown.
so with the new prestiges, a level 20 sorc can now use firewall as 2d6+23 instead of 2d6+20.

new math:
25-35 base damage range.
40% enhancement
50% empower
100% maximize
50% superior potency
20% sorc capstone

131.25 - 183.75
360.9375 - 505.3125 on crit.

the 2d6 versus undead confused me on how the math would really be done to apply it, so I am assuming that all the multipliers are added to it same as the base numbers:
2-12 base dmg : (multiplied by 2.5 for metamagics and 2.1 for enhancements)
10.5 - 63
28.875 - 173.25 on crit for a total range of:
141.75 - 246.75 on undead (non-crit)
389.8125 - 678.5625 critical damage versus undead.


My current speculation is at end-game, Firewall is stil going to be an extremely potent spell - especially when considering the curse that gives another 15% damage to fire spells, which I am assuming will help keep it outputting quite a bit of damage on red-names that aren't immune to fire damage.

The two biggest factors that make lower level players get shafted are the static 30-second duration, and the reflex save on initial contact, which seems to be a really cheesy way to stop people from kiting mobs through multiple firewalls, or back and forth through the same one.

It seems in any situation, firewall is going to be pretty pitiful if you are not a sorc with the fire savant PRE. The game has always been about SP conservation for casters (divine and arcane), and I don't like the idea of it being changed to the cookie-cutter standard of every other MMO out there of turning casters into...essentially arcane archers with all the SLAs. Unfortunately only time will tell on how this will play out on the live servers, and whether or not I will be accepting any arcanes into my raids and/or undeleting my sorc.

I appreciate any feedback on the math presented here, I am certainly no numbers guru and welcome the help to make it as accurate as possible

EDIT: thanks for Requiro for helping me correct damage formulas:

The formula is:

Damage = Base * Sum of Metas * Sum of Gear and Enhancments

So it suposed to be:

22 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)) * (1+ 0.4(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)) = 115.5
32 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)) * (1+ 0.4(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)) = 168

to compare damage versus undead:

pre-update 9:
- 635.25 - 924 versus undead (on crit)
after update 9:
- 389.8125 - 678.5625 critical damage versus undead.

the damage versus undead is quite significant, but if the trash mobs in epic wiz king (only place you really have to worry about undead at this point end-game) get the HP nerf like the rest of the trash mobs, then this really shouldn't be an issue anyways - undead would drop way too quickly otherwise, making it extremely broken.

[guardiankaiser]

I don't know about sorcerer capstone though i image it would fall in to the damage amp, but some of those a additive not all multiplicative bonuses... for example...
raw damage 100%
Potency 50%
capstone 20%
Enhancement 40%
=base damage 210% (or 110% extra)

Then this gets multiplied again by
Maximize +100%
Empower +50%
= spell does 250% extra
2.1(base)*2.5(meta) = 525% extra, (2d6 average 7 + 23 new sorc fire savant = 30) so about 157

Of course a crit would add a whole additional multiplier of 2.75, so 433ish average

At least 100% sure with magic missile (easy to test since its base is only going to be a 4 or 5)

However I'm curious were did you hear about firewall change? <yeah sorry if its common knowledge and somehow epic missed it>

[zalendar]

Cant even count sorc capstone as it still doesnt work.

[Zachski]

Cant even count sorc capstone as it still doesnt work.

This is assuming that it won't be fixed for this update.

[Eladrin]

Cant even count sorc capstone as it still doesnt work.

It appears to be functioning as expected. The capstone increases your base damage by 20%.

[Chai]

You mean I wont be able to rely on one spell alone to get me through 90% of all content?

[Barumar]

You mean I wont be able to rely on one spell alone to get me through 90% of all content?

And of top of that, they are actually making other spells useful? For Shame!!!

[MrWizard]

You mean I wont be able to rely on one spell alone to get me through 90% of all content?

or that 99% of the content does not even need it either?...lol

[jortann]

whoops!

nvm

[Impaqt]

Biggest problem is not the damage it is this....

Pre mod 9 ... a one minute firewall was 25 sp

With mod 9 ... one minute of firewall is going to cost you 70 sp



Its not that it is going to be a bad spell, its just that you will not be able to afford to cast it.


If they had done all the changes except the duration, I think it would be ok.

What they are trying to sell us is a weaker fire wall that is half as long for more spell points... For people who have invested a lot of time into thier toons, this stinks.

It would be like making greensteal half as effective.... sure you could use other weapons, but none of them will be as good as your greensteel... and you invested a lot of time into your greensteel.

You should read about the changes to Critical Hits....

[Requiro]

(...)
Pre mod 9 ... a one minute firewall was 35 sp (Base + Extended metas)

With mod 9 ... one minute of firewall is going to cost you 70 sp
(...)
It would be like making greensteal half as effective.... sure you could use other weapons, but none of them will be as good as your greensteel... and you invested a lot of time into your greensteel.

What are you invest (a lot!!) to cast Wall of Fire spell? Can you enlighten me?

[steelblueskies]

Biggest problem is not the damage it is this....

Pre mod 9 ... a one minute firewall was 25 sp

With mod 9 ... one minute of firewall is going to cost you 70 sp



Its not that it is going to be a bad spell, its just that you will not be able to afford to cast it.


If they had done all the changes except the duration, I think it would be ok.

What they are trying to sell us is a weaker fire wall that is half as long for more spell points... For people who have invested a lot of time into thier toons, this stinks.

It would be like making greensteal half as effective.... sure you could use other weapons, but none of them will be as good as your greensteel... and you invested a lot of time into your greensteel.

cost = 70 sp for one minute? did torc edit his post to 35 sp after change from 45? 45*2=90sp.

if i have to spam cheaper spells to manage equivalent damage then nothing has changed save the wear level on my mouse button or keyboard. except the time factor of course. and the odds of missing. or the mob phasing/burrowing. or dying before it goes off due to melee. guess on the last one at least i lose less. of course with many effects it'll now take more casts in general. and then there's still the issue that lead to limited spell slots in the first place( it'd get unmanageable in realtime to have every spell or near to it on a bar at once.). each class gets identified in certain ways by the playerbase. when pugging it's vital that this works. lest we lfm for clerics because we need healing and get bb monsters who melee and don't heal. rangers who don't range, but tank, rogues with esos and 110 ac and intimidate.. eff the sp and time changes to wof. give it a cast time equivalent to incendiary cloud or just below otto's dancing sphere. you want old style spam use quicken and eat the cost as it stands. otherwise problem fixed.

its not as bad as the debuff and cc mess. twice the casts taking twice the cooldowns with the same sp pool is, well, not effective. only saving grace is bosses like harry don't have real debuffs to land carrier save penalties. else that chain lightning and hold, would present whole new worlds of raid failure. they of course still have infinite sp while djinn/efeeti do not..

[rest]

It appears to be functioning as expected. The capstone increases your base damage by 20%.

Hmm thats news to me. I thought it was still broken from back in the day.

But then again, you've said in the past that fog spells are slowing enemies, when we experience something different.

[Missing_Minds]

Hmm thats news to me. I thought it was still broken from back in the day.

But then again, you've said in the past that fog spells are slowing enemies, when we experience something different.

Actually they came back and said it was slowing things down to much that they didn't like it.

You know.... They can DA harry us, but we can't slow them at all in turn like we used to do. I think Freezing Rain still slows them down.

[Requiro]

I don't read all but here you get mistake:

(...)
22 * 2(maximize) *1.5(empower) *1.4(sorc enhancements)*1.5(superior potency)*1.2(sorc capstone) = 166.32
32 * 2(maximize) *1.5(empower) *1.4(sorc enhancements)*1.5(superior potency)*1.2(sorc capstone) = 241.92

(...)

The formula is:

Damage = Base * Sum of Metas * Sum of Gear and Enhancments

So it suposed to be:

22 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)) * (1+ 0.4(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)) = 115.5
32 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)) * (1+ 0.4(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)) = 168

[protokon]

I don't read all but here you get mistake:



The formula is:

Damage = Base * Sum of Metas * Sum of Gear and Enhancments

So it suposed to be:

22 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)) * (1+ 0.4(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)) = 115.5
32 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)) * (1+ 0.4(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)) = 168

Thanks for clarifying, I really appreciate it! OP is updated with corrected formulas (I still may have made errors though). The numbers look much more realistic now.

EDIT: here's a few things that cut down on SP costs to consider when thinking about "cost per cast":

-efficient metamagic maximize II item (gloves of the glacier, epic ornamented dagger any tier) -4SP to maximize
-efficient metamagic maximize enhancements (6AP will net you -6SP cost)
-staff of the petitioner (10% discount on spell casting)

35SP + 15 empower + 15 maximize (let's include gloves + staff of petitioner and enhancements) + 10 quicken = 75 - or 68 wielding staff. about 59 if
you don't use quicken. if your on a sorc with 3,000 spell points, i don't think spending 60-70 SP on a single firewall is going to kill your SP pool...

the 30-second cap on the duration does sting though.

[Requiro]

Thanks for clarifying, I really appreciate it! OP is updated with corrected formulas (I still may have made errors though). The numbers look much more realistic now.

You welcome

You can consider few thing after Update 9:

• Enhancements line can give you +50% damage instead of 40%
• Only the first flame of the WoF can be avoided by reflex save, rest are the same.
• The only --big-- difference in damage will be against undeads.
• Also the –-big-- difference will be to something what you not have in your math calculation: damage per SP (this is the reason why everyone like to use it)

I don't see any more math mistake in your calculation - but I could miss something

Extend will not work with Wall of Fire come Update 9.

Yes I know that. I was talking about WoF now. See the previous post.

(tip: "old way" is WoF now, "new way" is after U9 )

[protokon]

<snip>

• Also the –-big-- difference will be to something what you not have in your math calculation: damage per SP (this is the reason why everyone like to use it)

This is, of course, the most crucial part to consider regardless of how you feel of the changes -

realistically, other than red-named mobs how often do you need something to sit in a firewall for more than 30 seconds?

for those single mobs that are roasting (high-HP named mobs), we also have that fire curse that will give another 15% damage to incoming fire damage.

It really seems like sorcs will be just fine, but wizards + lowbies (including both arcane classes) will be shafted on the spam firewall to cap in 3 days.

[Artos_Fabril]

new math:
25-35 base damage range.
40% enhancement
50% empower
100% maximize
50% superior potency
20% sorc capstone

131.25 - 183.75
360.9375 - 505.3125 on crit.

You missed:
50% Held/Helpless -- what we don't know is where this additional damage is applied. After the final damage calc? directly to base damage before multipliers? Stacked in with metas or enhancements?

[Book_O_Dragons]

You missed:
50% Held/Helpless -- what we don't know is where this additional damage is applied. After the final damage calc? directly to base damage before multipliers? Stacked in with metas or enhancements?

Some of Eladrin's coments make me think it will be multiplied to the total damage.

(current damage)*1.5= new damage when stunned