Prestige Enhancements? Any Good?

[My2Cents]

With all the discussion of new Prestige Enhancements for Sorcs, etc. with Update 9, I took another look at my Pally's prestige enhancements. I never felt overly excited by them but I might be missing something...

Defender of Siberys: Gets a bunch of defensive stuff and improved defensive stance
Hunter of the Dead: Gets a bunch of anti-undead stuff and a greater restoration ability...
Knight of the Chalice: Bonuses and extra damage against Evil Outsiders, I hear this is a big help at endgame.

But although there are many "nice" little things, none of these seem to really knock my socks off. Am I missing something good here, or do Paladins need some update love too?

I freely admit I may be overlooking something.

[scouse65]

A prestige class is only effective if it compliments your playing style. I HATE undead, so, naturally, I always take "Hunter of the Dead."

[FrozenNova]

Defender: AC, DR, Threat prestige.
Hunter of the dead: Healing amp prestige with neg level immunity.
KoTC: Amrath / Chrono / Subterrane dps prestige.

Hunter of the dead has almost nothing to do with undead and everything to do with beholders and cure serious wounds.
Defender's 25% threat boost is somewhat negated by the 1 ap divine righteousness. A paladin who wants agro has agro.
Glorious stand, however, takes a lot of pressure off healers during difficult times, and the blocking dr boost is massive.
KoTC is 7d6 per hit. This affects all glancing blows and offhand strikes. This is lots.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Defender of Siberys: Gets a bunch of defensive stuff and improved defensive stance

Good for AC characters, not so good for anyone who doesn't grind out AC.

Hunter of the Dead: Gets a bunch of anti-undead stuff and a greater restoration ability...

Sucks.

Knight of the Chalice: Bonuses and extra damage against Evil Outsiders, I hear this is a big help at endgame.

Awesome...against Evil Outsiders. It gives really good DPS against 1 type of enemy, but unfortunately, it only works on them. They're a big part of the end game though, so it's worth taking it.

[unbongwah]

DoS is necessary for pally tanks; a typical DPSadin will ignore it (not least because they usually won't meet any of the feat pre-reqs). I switch between HotD and KotC depending on whether I'm fighting undead or evil outsiders. HotD also provides healing amp (+10% per PrE rank IIRC), which never hurts.

[AylinIsAwesome]

DoS is necessary for pally tanks; a typical DPSadin will ignore it (not least because they usually won't meet any of the feat pre-reqs). I switch between HotD and KotC depending on whether I'm fighting undead or evil outsiders. HotD also provides healing amp (+10% per PrE rank IIRC), which never hurts.

I like HotD before 12 now, since there aren't many EOs running around then. Unfortunately, I think that's what it's best at. =\

[unbongwah]

The nice thing about HotD and KotC is they have no feat pre-reqs, so you can switch between them by resetting your enhs. So I go HotD when doing Deleras, Necropolis, House J, etc.; and go KotC when doing Threnal, Devil Assault, etc. If I'm facing neither undead nor EOs, I actually prefer HotD for the healing amp, extra TUs for more Divine Might, negative energy resistance, and immunity to energy drain. The extra Smites from KotC are always nice, of course, but everything else goes to waste when not fighting EOs.

[azrael4h]

I like HotD before 12 now, since there aren't many EOs running around then. Unfortunately, I think that's what it's best at. =\

This is what I did. Up to 14 or so, there are a ton of undead-centric quests to hit, and and extra 10-20% healing amp is awesome-sauce. The free Ghost-touch may be nice too, for a newbie with no gear. Once you get to 15 or so, whenever you're thinking of hitting the Vale, KotC until the end. At that point, the EOs being prevalent coupled with a distinct lack of real advantages beyond the healing amp boost for HotD makes the Knighthood better.

DoS is great if you feel like grinding out AC gear. I intend to TR into something I like playing, so grinding out stuff that in all likelyhood will never get used isn't productive.

[elraido]

Defender's 25% threat boost is somewhat negated by the 1 ap divine righteousness. A paladin who wants agro has agro.

They stack, I believe. 1.0x.50 since they are different % modifiers. Description also says the modifier is 50% for the last tier of defender, not 25% (unless the description is wrong).

[Azonalanthious]

They stack, I believe. 1.0x.50 since they are different % modifiers. Description also says the modifier is 50% for the last tier of defender, not 25% (unless the description is wrong).

I believe you are right, but I didn't think that was the point Frozen was making -- I thought he just meant that with righteousness, a paladin could already easily grab aggro, so the defender bonus wasn't generally needed, even if it does stack.

[Xenus_Paradox]

KotC III = OMGWTeeEffDPS vs. devils, demons, and Xoriat critters.

[TheDearLeader]

The neat thing about 2/3 Paladin PrEs is that while they are very AP-intensive, they require *no* feat in order to be taken. So, little has to be done to introduce them/remove them from a build.

HotD while leveling
KotC sometime when you're done with GH, and fully into Vale questing.

DoS is trickier to swap in and out, since it requires at least one feat. And as I recommend with all "Tank" builds - well, frankly, these are advanced builds. One has to have extensive game knowledge, prior planning, and gear grindage done before I see a tank build making itself worthwhile in all quests in the game. Multiple TR 36 point builds with a great gear layout, and possibly a 2 level splash of another class assist in these sort of builds.

And in the case of all three, it should be planned out before hand.

[SynalonEtuul]

KoTC: Amrath / Chrono / Subterrane dps prestige.

Also ADQ and Zawabi's

[TheDearLeader]

Also ADQ and Zawabi's

Oh are we getting to a "Name that Evil Outsider" off?
I got this.

Misery's Peak, Ice Flenser
Chronoscope/eChrono, Abishai, Barbazu, Orthon
Partycrashers/eParty, Abishai
Snitch/eSnitch, Abishai
Under the Big Top/eBigTop, Succubus
Tangleroot series, Ice Flenser
Into the Deep/eDeeps, Hezrou, Fire Reaver
Tempest Spine, 2x Ice and Fire Reaver
VON 2/EV2, Tharaak Hound
VON 6/EV6, Ice Render
Invaders, Ice and Fire Reaver, Tharaak Hound
ATDQ, Fire Reaver, Flesh Render, Efreeti, Rakshasa, Marilith
Chains of Flame/eCoF, Efreeti
Chamber of Raiyum/eWizKing, Efreeti
Offering of Blood/eOoB, some of the Scorpions.
Delirium, Tharaak Hound, Flesh Render
Prison of the Planes, Ice Flenser, Efreeti, Marilith, Jarilith
A Cry for Help, Rakshasa, Jarilith
Gianthold Explorer, Jarilith
Xorian Cipher, Tharaak Hound
Vale Explorer, Orthon, Barbazu, Bezekira
Running with the Devil, Barbazu, Orthon
Riitual Sacrifice, Orthon, Barbazu
Let Sleeping Dust Lie, Rakshasa
Rainbow in the Dark, Orthon, Barbazu
Subterrane Explorer, Barbazu, Orthon, Tharaak Hound, Fire/Ice Reaver, Flesh Render
Hound of Xoriat, Tharaak Hound, Flesh Render
A Vision of Destruction, Horned Devil, Barbazu, Orthon
Inspired Quarter quests, Quori, Dream Stealers, Boss of Dreaming Dark (The Dream Reavers are actually Aberrations, thus do not count)
All of Amrath/Devil Battlefield (quests, raid and explorer area), Marilith, Jarilith, Bezekira, Orthon, Barbazu, Pit Fiend, Horned Devil, Hezrou, Succubus

This is what I've got without opening the Wiki. I know there's at least one Xorian quest I've forgotten, because I can't remember the full quest name. There's also the F2P one in the IQ that has Marilith, Efreeti, Ice Renders, and the like, but despite doing it just last night, I can't remember the name.

Anyway, enjoy the above list. Evil Outsiders lurk in more places than most think about, and each and every enemy on that list is affected by the KotC PrE.

[S.MCCARGO]

Since I made lvl20 I'm KotC, but probably swap to HotD for the Mabar festival. Looking to get the HotD set from Amrath, will this set stack with KotC?

Torsteel.

[WielderofGigantus]

KoTC is 7d6 per hit and more through set bonus. This affects all glancing blows and offhand strikes. This is lots.

Uh, no. KotC Tier 3 is 4d6 damage per hit, not 7d6. The previous tiers do not stack.

[Geraldicus]

Level 12 hunter of the dead is immune to level drain (and not just from undead) and while level draining isn't quite as deadly as it was in previous versions of D&D it's still darn annoying.

[Krag]

But although there are many "nice" little things, none of these seem to really knock my socks off. Am I missing something good here, or do Paladins need some update love too?

I freely admit I may be overlooking something.

Your observations are correct.
Defender is a decent tanking prestige. The rest is just ****. Too narrow-focused to be cconsidered real prestiges.

[TheDearLeader]

Your observations are correct.
Defender is a decent tanking prestige. The rest is just ****. Too narrow-focused to be cconsidered real prestiges.

Ah, the above was posted as I was making my (rather lengthy) post. I would most respectfully disagree with the above statement.

Since I made lvl20 I'm KotC, but probably swap to HotD for the Mabar festival. Looking to get the HotD set from Amrath, will this set stack with KotC?

Torsteel.

I'm not quite sure what your question here is?

The KotC & HotD sets are both Ring & Belt, so you can only wear one at a time. Also, their Extra Damage vs. ~ only applies when you are of the appropriate PrE - so you can only get extra EO damage by being KotC with the appropriate set, and extra undead damage by being HotD with the appropriate set.

I suppose switching for Mabar is not a horrible idea - I have wondered if with all the changes to disruption, if HotD III will be doing additional undead damage or something, something to make it more useful than it was pre-U9. (by the time you got to level 18 to use it, you'd out-leveled most Undead content, and the few undead you met had Death Ward, Epic Ward, or something else that blocked the Greater Disruption-ish ability.)

Uh, no. KotC Tier 3 is 4d6 damage per hit, not 7d6. The previous tiers do not stack.

This is quite correct. 4d6 @ Final tier.

However, a KotC gets stronger with more levels, enhancements, and gear.
Base KotC III - 4d6 vs. EO (Or perhaps it is 4d6+4? meh, it's all damage.)
KotC III, w/Capstone - now we're seeing 7d6 vs. EO, 1d6 Holy and 2d6 Light from the Capstone being the extra 3d6.
KotC III, Capstone, ToD Set Bonus - Now we're looking at a full 10d6 Extra Damage per swing - this is why TWF > THF for end-game DPS Paladins.

To explore "TWF > THF" a bit more:
TWF means more swings per minute. On something like a DPS Paladin, this is even more important by the fact that we have things that modify our damage output per swing, not per point of strength. For other classes, TWF mainly goes off their Strength score, meaning that the off hand will only do half the Strength damage of the main hand.
Paladins have:
Divine Might (+2~+8 Damage per swing)
Divine Favor (+3 Damage per swing)
Above + 10d6 vs EO, *or* +3d6 vs. Undead, *or* +1d6 Holy vs. Evil creatures.
Weapon effects (all classes can use weapons with effects, but this should be mentioned with the rest)
Divine Sacrifice (somewhere between 5d6~9d6 damage per swing, spammable almost infinitely, 3 second'ish cooldown. Also increases critical multiplier of swing x1)
Exalted Smite (Maximum of x2 increase to critical multiplier, and adding 2 to the threat range of your weapon. Max 12 uses, recharging at 1/90 seconds, or when shrining.)

With all these in mind, it is easy to see that while Strength is still an important factor for maintaining a reliably high to-hit and damage, damage on a Paladin comes from many sources. Also, consider that with Zeal, a Paladin has an attack rating of 110% Main/80% Offhand, that's a fairly high chance of seeing multiple critical smites from a single smite usage.

So, OP, while this discussion is a month and a half old right now: Yes, enhancements are important for affecting your Paladin's performance on the battlefield. As I have learned more about my favorite class (of my 4 capped single-life TRs, my Paladin is my favorite), I have found that Paladin is definitely one of those classes that you can make, or break, by changing feats or enhancements.

[FrozenNova]

Uh, no. KotC Tier 3 is 4d6 damage per hit, not 7d6. The previous tiers do not stack.

Sharvarath set stacks for 7d6 total. If you are a kotc, you get this set.
Edit: OurDearLeader has me ninjad.

7d6 is 24.5 extra damage per hit in the shroud, tod, vod, hox, echrono, edq. KoTC is incredibly powerful, to the extent that good kotcs reach damage on par with or suppassing most fighters / barbarians.

HoTD has its place, on healing amp builds. A human thf paladin could, for instance, easily take quicken and maximize, and with a little gear (healing amp DT, conc opp, spellpoint boost and potentially torc) they can maintain a massive amount of self healing with human recovery and HotD.. I do not consider this a 'niche', I consider this a sizable aspect of the reasons you might play a paladin over a fighter.