This nerf to firewall - it is bad

[Alcamez]

What is it about high magic that would make the enemies kill themselves in firewalls? Maybe they would run through it to get to the caster (who wouldn't likely be standing in it), and only then, if they thought they could actually hurt the caster, which is most often not the case here. If your DM couldn't come up with something better than chasing you through your own firewalls, they don't deserve the title DM.

o No see you dont get it... Im like MR Black in " Reservoir Dogs" pouring gas on your cut up body dancing to "Stuck in the Middle with you" when my firewalls go off.

[Kambuk]

I think they need to add fearsome to firewall.
Every non fire immune mob in the game has to have a phobia about them by now.

Reflex save to avoid damage, on fail Will save to give up chasing the caster and run off to find some friends to help....

Kambuk

[Saravis]

I think I might be the only person that is actually kind of glad for the nerf. I've gotten almost sick of firewall. I'd like higher lvl DPS spells to become more relevant and from the looks of things that exactly what they're aiming for. My only concern is dealing with skellies, but we'll see.

[Lithic]

Firewall has been obscolete for level eight undead for a while. Although the collective pug might not have caught on, at that level a cleric can destroy undead faster than firewall.

You are mistaken. Sure a cleric can destroy undead with turns, But does a cleric have as many turns as a lvl 8 sorc can cast wall of fire? Does the cleric auto-destroy everything in range? Maybe in permadeath groups it might be more effective to be a turn-happy cleric (i wouldnt know), but in my zerging XP farming groups you really can't beat a firewall-specced sorc.

I use my lvl 8 sorc in quests with lots of phasing undead (shadowknight elite especially, a lvl 10 quest on elite). How effective do you think the turning cleric will be when half the shadows are phased out every time they hit turn? How effective is turn undead vs the non-undead critters, such as the phase spiders and human casters/archers? Now sure the cleric is probably more likely to have a decent melee capability, but it will still be much slower than the firewall-and-forget playstyle. When TRing, time is the most important factor.

In any case the change to firewall crits (which made WoF significantly more powerfull for leveling purposes) should offset most of the new nerfs, and we might be pretty close to where we started out. At least for low to mid level content. I can see later content being more about the AoE instant spells (fireball), which really would make things faster paced and likely more fun.

[baddax]

Well sure, and if you are standing right next to the mob that the THF barbarian is wailing on, you should have to avoid getting hit by his giant axe. Discussing about adding in "Friendly fire" doesn't really have any bearing since it's a completely separate topic As is talking about being able to "block" enemies in with wall spells.

The topic at hand is that mob AI walks THROUGH a wall of fire and can somehow not get burned. If they said "Adjusted mob AI to always go around WoF when possible" -- I'd be fine with that. But if the mob walks through a giant wall of flame, they aren't going to avoid getting singed, it's just kind of a silly change in my opinion especially when stacked with all the other changes to the spell.

It occured to me that improving AI might cause increased lag and this might be a simplistic way (right or wrong) to accomplish a similar effect.

[andbr22]

Yay... They made another usless spell...
Have nothing against some nerf, but this spell will become usless...
30 seconds - isn't it a bit too low for kiting ToD? If they are not poison immune and acir resistant then CK (but theyu probably are because noone uses this spell now there)...
Hello to NUKE their 4$$ caster...

With current number of changes there is IMPOSSIBLE that someting won't be broken in the process...

[quickgrif]

I suggest Star Wars: The Old Republic. link: http://www.swtor.com/

I played DDO because I thought it was loyal to D&D. Now it couldn't be farther from it. Gygax would be turning in his grave right now (and probably come back as an archlich and slaughter most of Turbine's staff).

If I'm gonna play a new system, I'll play something that's entirely different like SWTOR.

Yes turbine, your hardcore VIP customers who are loyal to D&D are going bye bye. Have fun entertaining 12 year old kids who can only play on the weekends.

Speak for yourself I am staying. I think with some future tweaking the new spell cost/change will add variety and some strategy back to the game.

[DrenglisEU]

I will formulate my response in Finnish instead... tis FW nerf on SUORAAN SANOEN PERSEESTÄ, perkeleen tyhmää!! My 2 cents against this nerf!

[cpito]

After having spent a couple hours running torches in CC and weaving through groups of dancing, burning hobbies, I really do think something's got to give and yea, I think it needs to be firewall. That there is a balance problem should be evident with the number of CC lfms advertizing for casters only. I can't say whether or not they went overboard and I dont play arcanes but it does seem to me that fw is overpowered, especially in combination with other spells. Do you nerf a bunch of other spells to be less effective with fw? What do you do to Otto's Irrisistable Dance other than make it resistable (ie: non-existant)? How about Mass Hold? Take away the autocrit? (Melee's would looooove that move.) Shorten those duration times? What about paralyzing weapons? Do we adjust those too? How much time do the Devs spend on this? Or do the devs make the logical choice of choosing far simpler single spell to adjust?

[cptcruch]

So now we'll have nothing but casters crying and complaining about the nerf? Does everyone forget the nerf to Blade Barriers and how they made it so we couldn't stack them anymore? Get over it, it's not life or death it's a game!

Adapt, improvise!

[Anneliese]

So now we'll have nothing but casters crying and complaining about the nerf? Does everyone forget the nerf to Blade Barriers and how they made it so we couldn't stack them anymore? Get over it, it's not life or death it's a game!

Adapt, improvise!

You can still sort of stack them, if you cast them in exactly the same spot.

[parvo]

You are mistaken. Sure a cleric can destroy undead with turns, But does a cleric have as many turns as a lvl 8 sorc can cast wall of fire? Does the cleric auto-destroy everything in range? Maybe in permadeath groups it might be more effective to be a turn-happy cleric (i wouldnt know), but in my zerging XP farming groups you really can't beat a firewall-specced sorc.

I use my lvl 8 sorc in quests with lots of phasing undead (shadowknight elite especially, a lvl 10 quest on elite). How effective do you think the turning cleric will be when half the shadows are phased out every time they hit turn? How effective is turn undead vs the non-undead critters, such as the phase spiders and human casters/archers? Now sure the cleric is probably more likely to have a decent melee capability, but it will still be much slower than the firewall-and-forget playstyle. When TRing, time is the most important factor.

In any case the change to firewall crits (which made WoF significantly more powerfull for leveling purposes) should offset most of the new nerfs, and we might be pretty close to where we started out. At least for low to mid level content. I can see later content being more about the AoE instant spells (fireball), which really would make things faster paced and likely more fun.

I assume you are dual-boxing with one character essentially doing nothing while the other completes? If it were me, I'd try the cleric approach. I'm not sure why you go level 8 in a level 10 quest, but even at that level with twink gear you can probably get your turns high enough. I think there's even a cleric past life feat that increases turn level by two. Apparently it stacks with itself a couple of times. Specced correctly, yes, your turns will auto destroy all undead in range, well, not the boss, but you could maybe heal him to death. The human enemies, you could probably hold. Not sure about the phase spiders, but try soundburst. If they are not immune, most spiders have low fort saves. A level eight cleric can get gobs of turns that regenerate. They can't buy potions for more turns, but without that, the number is probably comparable to the number of firewalls an 8 sorc could throw. Does the 8 sorc use maximize/empower?

[katz]

I suggest Star Wars: The Old Republic. link: http://www.swtor.com/

I played DDO because I thought it was loyal to D&D. Now it couldn't be farther from it. Gygax would be turning in his grave right now (and probably come back as an archlich and slaughter most of Turbine's staff).

If I'm gonna play a new system, I'll play something that's entirely different like SWTOR.

Yes turbine, your hardcore VIP customers who are loyal to D&D are going bye bye. Have fun entertaining 12 year old kids who can only play on the weekends.

my husband and i won't be leaving over this. we are both D&D fans. we are both VIP. we both have arcanes, WF archmage wiz/rog in his case, and a PM wiz/rog and the sorc/bard linked in my sig in my case.


about firewall -
yes. once the change goes in, i will miss the power of it, but yes, in my opinion, firewall is a little on the ridiculous side. you gotta admit, that when alot (maybe not all, but alot... depends heavily on player skill and stat allocation) of casters go from gimp to, magically at 7/8, masters of the kill count with a single spell, something's a little wonky... and LORD help you if you're a sorc and you DON'T take firewall as your one spell.. you'll get laughed right out of the group. at BEST. i don't even wanna talk about worst case scenario. any single spell that is that powerful, gotten at that low a level, really does need a little tuning and tweaking. and considering this is not a single nerf to a single spell, but rather a massive sweeping change to the whole spell list... especially considering adding in PrEs and enhancement lines and whatnot, perhaps other spells will step into the limelight and offer other options rather than the 'easy button' of firewall.

as i have said a few times in this thread now... i will wait and see. without having all information available to me, i cannot make a judgment. the only info i have is the tidbits from the devs, and the doom-and-gloom, wild speculation, and tentative numbers from the community. i won't be able to make an informed decision until i test myself. on Lamannia, and on live.

wall-o-text being said... to those who DO choose to leave over this, i wish you well and i hope you find a game that suits you. oh yeah, and can i have your stuff?

[Lithic]

I assume you are dual-boxing with one character essentially doing nothing while the other completes? If it were me, I'd try the cleric approach. I'm not sure why you go level 8 in a level 10 quest, but even at that level with twink gear you can probably get your turns high enough. I think there's even a cleric past life feat that increases turn level by two. Apparently it stacks with itself a couple of times. Specced correctly, yes, your turns will auto destroy all undead in range, well, not the boss, but you could maybe heal him to death. The human enemies, you could probably hold. Not sure about the phase spiders, but try soundburst. If they are not immune, most spiders have low fort saves. A level eight cleric can get gobs of turns that regenerate. They can't buy potions for more turns, but without that, the number is probably comparable to the number of firewalls an 8 sorc could throw. Does the 8 sorc use maximize/empower?

Yes I dual box. My main sits at entrance while the sorc does all the work. The reason I go in a lvl 10 quest with a lvl 8 is that I only have 3 sorcs on the 2nd account (lvl 8, 12, and 16), and no more slots on that account (nor the desire to make any others, the lvl 8 sorc is capable enough for everythng up to lvl 10). I would definately not waste time TRing such characters heh. Oh and the sorc does use maximize and/or empowere depending on the quest and number of shrines. In shadowknight for example, I never turn either off (4 shrines), but in deleras pt 4 I usually only use maximize so I can skip the shrine entirely.

This is getting a little off topic though lol.

[tinyelvis]

Some of you guys are pretty silly. Wall of Fire actually got a buff. Now it has a much larger AOE, can potentially blind people, and got a name change.

I don't blame you folks, I blame the schools.

[dv8maker123]

This may not be the end of the world, but this second nerf to FW is still another punch to the gut for casters. Maybe if turbine made the rest of our spells as effective as they are supposed to be it wouldnt be an issue, but with mobs stacking insane amounts of hitpoints many spells in the list arent even worth using. FW was one of the few damage spells that was at least efficient. I have a 20 bard who easily out dps's my level 19 wiz (and has at about every level), why? Cause I can swing hasted swords all day and not care about mana conservation or fatigue. I generally play casters in all MMO's, but man is turbine continuing to push the caster class into an inferior support role (in my opinion). Hopefully this nerf comes in conjunction with some other positive changes or new spell additions.

edit: Well, while I still dislike the the changes to the nuke aoe spells, I have to say, after reading the Spell Pass comments I am a big fan of the other changes. I've always been disappointed with the uselessness of Circle of Death and Power Word Kill. Sounds like those and other spells will finally become viable options.

[Aaxeyu]

Hate me for saying so but...FW needed to be nerfed. Anyone who doesn't think so must not know how to use it.

Oh they know how to use it. They just can't think straight when affected by the initial wave of nerf-rage.
Give it some time and people will realise that nerfing something that is incredibly overpowered is a good thing.

And people who cite dnd pnp and say that this bring the game away from it really needs to get a grip.
What's more dnd pnp like: Casters killing hordes of supposedly intelligent monsters by having them STAND STILL AND WAIT in his FW, or casters using a diversity of spells to overcome different challenges?


Nerfs bring out so much stupid on these forums...

[Ridag]

<snip> How about Mass Hold? Take away the autocrit? (Melee's would looooove that move.) <snip>

I guess you didn't read the post about that by Eladrin last week... from this thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...06#post3658006

• Monsters that are helpless take 50% additional damage from all sources, including normal attacks, spells, or environmental effects (before damage reduction is applied). A critical hit on a helpless monster will deal 50% additional critical damage as expected.
• Players that are helpless take additional damage based on the dungeon difficulty:
  * Solo/Casual: +5%
  * Normal: +10%
  * Hard: +15%
  * Elite: +20%
  * Epic: +25%
• Creatures that are helpless are denied their dexterity bonus to armor class, and suffer an additional -4 penalty to armor class.

So melee auto-crits are going bye-bye as well.

If you don't play a caster you probably don't understand the relative power of any of the arcane spells, or the effects of the changes to any of them.

The game is evolving. How this effects game play is yet to be seen. I have held off on TR'ing my caster any more, most people I know have as well. If the changes are too bad I'd imagine those characters will be TR'd into whatever is top dog under the new system. Possibly FvS if Blade Barrier doesn't take a nerf, or Horc rogue as they will be DPS kings. As if we don't have enough Horc melee in the game...

Anyway we'll see what U9 brings, hopefully it makes the game more enjoyable for everyone. Personally my sub is up at the end of this month and I will let it renew for another 3, the $30 is worth the entertainment value for me.

[Templarion]

I hope my Shadow Crypt runner will be able to do still her job.

Other than that, I don't much care.

Makes the game harder? Well, it's pretty easy already.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Oh they know how to use it. They just can't think straight when affected by the initial wave of nerf-rage.
Give it some time and people will realise that nerfing something that is incredibly overpowered is a good thing.

And people who cite dnd pnp and say that this bring the game away from it really needs to get a grip.
What's more dnd pnp like: Casters killing hordes of supposedly intelligent monsters by having them STAND STILL AND WAIT in his FW, or casters using a huge diversity of spells to overcome different challenges?


Nerfs bring out so much stupid on these forums...

Couldn't have said it better myself. Same thing goes for mass hold finally getting nerfed as well.

People immediately go
"oh noes, I can't mass hold and make every encounter a smash-fest on immobile auto-critted monsters"