This nerf to firewall - it is bad

[sirgog]

Good. The best spell takes a nerf, the mediocre spells get an enormous buff, and suddenly, there are a lot more ways to play a caster at endgame.

[joaofalcao]

The spell itself (as is) isn't so broken. The AI is. While I am very impressed with the overall DDO AI, they missed a chance here to make it even better. Most mobs should attempt to path out of or around obvious danger.

While I can agree that this makes sense, I would like to add that, like Sleet Storm, firewalls should affect party members and caster as well. This surely would be much ... toughtfull. Like sleet storm, you would think twice before casting it.

Me and wife have 3 casters and we surelly will feel really bad about this change. We seen the spell crit change and we did not like, but its great on my cleric (and wizards less so).


Yet, I would like to add that flimsyfirewood(DEV) quote: "Game Development is like sex. If you make bad choices, you ll have to support it for the rest of your life".

Meaning that I feel betrayed/upset/frustrated that the game I always played is changing so much.

[Ashbinder]

Yet, I would like to add that flimsyfirewood(DEV) quote: "Game Development is like sex. If you make bad choices, you ll have to support it for the rest of your life".

Game development is like sex, and buddy, you just got screwed.

[Anneliese]

Good. The best spell takes a nerf, the mediocre spells get an enormous buff, and suddenly, there are a lot more ways to play a caster at endgame.

Many startegies evolve around mass hold and wall of fire.

The spell changes do not seem to offer an alternative.

Wall of Fire no longer does double damage to undead - no spell replaces it.

Mass hold combined with a dream spitter allowed to kill epic mobs - what now?

[krud]

I'm just confused about how you can get a reflex save for a WALL of fire....It's not like you can walk through a wall and be able to dodge the flames that you are walking straight through.

I can understand wanting to adjust WoF down and what-not, but I feel that piece of the change really doesn't make sense. It'd be like getting a reflex save during a monsoon to avoid all of the rain drops. No matter how agile you are, if you are completely engulfed in something you aren't dodging it.

hmm..ya know those people who walk on hot coals? what kind of save do you think best reflects not getting their feet burned? If they're going to add a save (not that WoF really needs one) might as well be reflex.

[Xenus_Paradox]

Lets say I want to solo Wiz King Epic.

Mas Hold and WoF are both nerfed for this quest.

What should I do? Cast cheap polar ray?

Or you might have to *gasp* run with a party! Oh the horror... oh wait, you can just hop in on level 20-22 and have massively nerfed monsters.

[jjflanigan]

Except it is a wall spell, you and the Mobs aren't supposed to be able to go through it anyway.
Wall of Spells were written in PnP to be tactical positioning spells not lets round up the mobs and run them through it.

Yes the AI is broken and should path around the Wall Of Fire but then even the caster should get hurt by his own wall of fire if he stands too close.

Well sure, and if you are standing right next to the mob that the THF barbarian is wailing on, you should have to avoid getting hit by his giant axe. Discussing about adding in "Friendly fire" doesn't really have any bearing since it's a completely separate topic As is talking about being able to "block" enemies in with wall spells.

The topic at hand is that mob AI walks THROUGH a wall of fire and can somehow not get burned. If they said "Adjusted mob AI to always go around WoF when possible" -- I'd be fine with that. But if the mob walks through a giant wall of flame, they aren't going to avoid getting singed, it's just kind of a silly change in my opinion especially when stacked with all the other changes to the spell.

[jjflanigan]

hmm..ya know those people who walk on hot coals? what kind of save do you think best reflects not getting their feet burned? If they're going to add a save (not that WoF really needs one) might as well be reflex.

Depending on whom you speak with it is any of them: a will save ("mind over matter") or a fortitude save ("toughened skin on the feat") or a reflex save ("feet lift so quickly they do not have time to burn").

I know the whole pitfall of applying real world logic to a game is a waste of time and I'm normally good about suspending my disbelief for things that benefit the game or are needed for balance...this piece of the change seems like it's overkill, in my opinion, and should be left out of this spell change pass and kept in their pocket if the sp increase/removal of extend/reduction of bonus damage don't have the desired effect.

[sirgog]

Many startegies evolve around mass hold and wall of fire.

The spell changes do not seem to offer an alternative.

Wall of Fire no longer does double damage to undead - no spell replaces it.

Mass hold combined with a dream spitter allowed to kill epic mobs - what now?

Rotate Cold Savant nukes. I've done the numbers, you can and will kill a lot of mobs with the free spells. With the reductions to epic trash HP, crit Polar Rays should one-shot most mobs, or leave them at very low HP.


Or better yet, rotate Earth Savant nukes. Melf's Acid Arrow gets an enormous buff in this update, and Acid Blast really pumps out the hurt.

[TheHolyDarkness]

I don't know what Turbine thinks they are doing implementing so many changes massively at once, but I don't trust it. There will be unintended consequences for whatever they are doing.

I will wait and see, but something tells me its not all going to work as intended. Whatever the heck they think they're intending.

A firewall nerf I have no deal with. Personally, methinks this is a bit of an overnerf however. Unextendable? Yeah ok, that just makes it a more balanced option to Ice Storm. Reflex save? Very very iffy. So from now on, it'll only last just as long as Ice Storm, but unlike Ice Storm, it no longer has a reflex save? Ok. o_o

Guess they don't want WoF to be any kind of option at all. Let alone fire savant. Surely, that must be their true intent. Make darn sure no one picks fire savant. Just like how no one ever picks Hunter of the Dead. Good job spending development time making useless content no one ever uses. Like Necro 1 through 3 for that matter, or 3BC.

Congrats Turbine. You're doing a great job with the addition of design gaffs with this one. Methinks you are being overzealous with the design changes. Too many at once if you ask me.

Personally, I don't care about FW. Never did. So from the perspective of someone whose simply trying to comprehend the overall plan, tell me again, what will be the reason to make a fire savant again? Was anyone thinking about this in their offices?

Anyone test Fire Savant? Did they honestly think it would be considered more fun in these ways?

Huh. I'm just saying. o_o
~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[Zorack00]

I'm just confused about how you can get a reflex save for a WALL of fire....It's not like you can walk through a wall and be able to dodge the flames that you are walking straight through.

I can understand wanting to adjust WoF down and what-not, but I feel that piece of the change really doesn't make sense. It'd be like getting a reflex save during a monsoon to avoid all of the rain drops. No matter how agile you are, if you are completely engulfed in something you aren't dodging it.

How does one shoot walls of fire out of their finger tips.

That being said, balance > flavor, in my opinion.

Not saying the nerf was needed or anything, cause I've never played a caster intently before so I wouldn't know...

[jjflanigan]

How does one shoot walls of fire out of their finger tips.

That being said, balance > flavor, in my opinion.

Not saying the nerf was needed or anything, cause I've never played a caster intently before so I wouldn't know...

*nod* That's a good point and I admitted I was crossing that line of applying the real world logic to a game in a later post. I suppose my biggest thing is I just don't understand the need for 4 "nerfs" to one spell all at once.

[Angelus_dead]

Or you might have to *gasp* run with a party! Oh the horror... oh wait, you can just hop in on level 20-22 and have massively nerfed monsters.

Level 22 nerfed Epic Wizard King, what huh!?

[shagath]

I'm just confused about how you can get a reflex save for a WALL of fire....It's not like you can walk through a wall and be able to dodge the flames that you are walking straight through.

It's not your usual fire but magical. It doesn't hurt you or party members either. I would call it jumping over a wall but monsters don't jump so it must be done via save. Oh, sleep. I need it.

[Cheswick]

30 seconds !!! Whhaaaattttt!!!

[jjflanigan]

It's not your usual fire but magical. It doesn't hurt you or party members either. I would call it jumping over a wall but monsters don't jump so it must be done via save. Oh, sleep. I need it.

Have to admit, that would be extremely awesome. Cast a wall of fire and try to kite an Orthon through only to see him do a gigantic forward flip over the wall

[PopeJual]

The loss of Extend is very annoying. As long as it's save for half, then the save will also be very annoying. If the save is for 0 damage, then it will be a catastrophic nerf for many situations.

I don't think that we need to have Wall of Fire as the primary damage source in most quests as long as we have other spells that can do the job too. We do need Wall of Fire as an area of effect source of damage over time so that we can grab big bunches of aggro when we need to.

Even if we eventually use WoF only to grab initial aggro, it will still be useful and it can still be useful in Undead theme quests as a damage over time spell. If we can't guarantee initial aggro with the spell, though, then it will be worthless for that application.

[PopeJual]

I'm just confused about how you can get a reflex save for a WALL of fire....It's not like you can walk through a wall and be able to dodge the flames that you are walking straight through.

I think that it should give you a Will save, but based on your Cha instead of Wisdom. Based on the mobs telling the WoF, "Nah, it's okay. I'm with the party, so you don't have to hurt me."

[SlogUK]

Oh good. If they are going to the effort to stop extend working on fw, it should be easy for them to stop the heighten bug on polar ray.

Seriously though, someone must have just taken over as lead developer for ddo and is churning out these changes for the sake of change. Lets hope he gets bored, sacked or married asap. There will always be preferred tactics. Changing them will just lead to different ones. Idiot.

[jjflanigan]

I think that it should give you a Will save, but based on your Cha instead of Wisdom. Based on the mobs telling the WoF, "Nah, it's okay. I'm with the party, so you don't have to hurt me."

HAH! I had to +1 that because it literally made me laugh out loud.