Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

[B0ltdrag0n]

2d4 + 1/caster level = 25 average / sec. for 12 sec.
25 x (1 + 0.5 empower + 1.0 maximize) x (1.0 + 0.5 potency + 0.5 enhancements) = 125 / sec.
or (0.75 potency) 140 with clicky/pot.
18% crit for x3 adds 45 on average (I'm only using x2 because I add it to average normal damage) or 50 with clicky/pot.
Total: 170 or 190 / sec., 2,040 or 2,280 over 12 sec.

Sorry, but this is huge for only 6 sp base (granted, it's 46 sp with empower/maximize), as you just need to drop it then hide/run away. Of course, if you drop it on a mob who will die in 2 sec., this is just a bad use of the spell: why cast anything? Haste and keep your sp.
Furthermore, Melph's Arrow has no save, no SR check. This is a very good option for archers and so on. A better option than WoF now.

You can use it the economic way too. Without metas, average damage is 50 + 18 from crits = 68 x 12 sec. = 816 damage for 6 sp. Not bad, really. Sure, many SLA will be better, but the main point of Melph's Arrow is that you can hide/run while waiting for it to do its work.

Slight note to your math. Melf's is an SLA for the class, and I do believe that Eladrin said that metamagics apply free to the class SLA's, just as they do to archmage spells.

[melkor1702]

Pen and paper used spell slots, not spell points. Both friendly units and hostile units take damage while running through both instant and persistent AoE effects. What you are used to using is not pen and paper. Casters have been overpowered for far too long. I'm sure good casters will adapt and bad casters will die. Hopefully this finally eliminates an arcane being able to solo epic quests.

All player classes have been overpowered for a long time (not just casters), it's why we have epic wards, inflated saves, inflated hit points etc on mobs.

[Cheretep]

I like most what they are trying to do here. Firewall nerf is welcome.

What I really don't like is:
-sp cost variations: spells should balance it out by other things (damage,duration,cooldown,saves,animation,etc.)
-making feats like enlarge and extend useless/less usefull (dropping firewall base time to 15s + extendable is way better than making it 30s flat)

I'd think it will be easier and simpler for new players too, when they don't have to memorize what costs 4sp and what costs 7 or 12 or 43. Also memorizing what can be extended and what is not. Heck, I was mortified when I learned Flaming Sphere did not extend, despite the fact that it would still suck.

Nerfing for balance is ok. These 2 things just add to the confusion. Plenty of ways to nerf without making spells more complex.

I'm bit unsure if we really need sp regen. Dev-hours would be better used on bug-hunting.

[donfilibuster]

All player classes have been overpowered for a long time (not just casters), it's why we have epic wards, inflated saves, inflated hit points etc on mobs.

Yep, and it was predicted by Velah that the day of the prophecy will came and nerf all that... or something like that.

[Calebro]

(dropping firewall base time to 15s + extendable is way better than making it 30s flat)

I don't understand why people keep saying this at all.

First, it would be useless in the natural unextended form if it were 15 seconds, which means that casters would be forced to take extend. At least they have the option of ignoring extend at the moment. Most take it anyway, but at least the option is there. At 15 seconds base, the option disappears and it becomes mandatory.
Second, unless they dropped the sp cost by 10, having a base 15 second WoF extended to 30 seconds would simply mean that extending it would create the same effect at a higher cost. That's not better, that's worse.

30 seconds flat is much MUCH better than 15 seconds and extendable.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I don't understand why people keep saying this at all.

First, it would be useless in the natural unextended form if it were 15 seconds, which means that casters would be forced to take extend. At least they have the option of ignoring extend at the moment. Most take it anyway, but at least the option is there. At 15 seconds base, the option disappears and it becomes mandatory.
Second, unless they dropped the sp cost by 10, having a base 15 second WoF extended to 30 seconds would simply mean that extending it would create the same effect at a higher cost. That's not better, that's worse.

30 seconds flat is much MUCH better than 15 seconds and extendable.

I'd suggest looking at it objectively rather than subjectively.
At 15 seconds it would still be a very good spell for it's SP cost, it's not like it deals a lot less damage than say a fireball, each tick.

It would actually be better for the game if it was 15/30, or preferably 20/40. Since extend's only purpose is really for haste now. And honestly, I don't think it's worth it any longer.

[Calebro]

I'd suggest looking at it objectively rather than subjectively.
At 15 seconds it would still be a very good spell for it's SP cost, it's not like it deals a lot less damage than say a fireball, each tick.

It would actually be better for the game if it was 15/30, or preferably 20/40. Since extend's only purpose is really for haste now. And honestly, I don't think it's worth it any longer.

It currently doesn't deal much less than say a fireball, but once this goes live it likely will.

I'm not sure what this post is based on but spell damage dice is not changing.

Traditionally in DDO Direct damage or "instant" damage spells use "loaded" dice, where we give you half the value and then roll the second half.

Example: Lightning bolt does a d6 per level, but actually roll 3+1d3 per die. So the average tends to be 5. This prevents you from rolling a ton of 1s and getting a crappy lightning bolt.

Now Dots typically roll true dice: 1d4 will really be a range of 1 - 4.

But anyhow, the base method of how we do spell damage dice isn't changing Been that way awhile.

That one thing is going to have a bigger impact on WoF than anything else that has been proposed, but that's the one part that people are ignoring.
Reduce the damage against undead. Reduce the dice to true dice rather than weighted. Add a save for half upon entering the wall. Increase the cost.
And now people want to drop it to a max of 7 tics?
7 tics might not, and in many cases definitely won't, get the job done, which means extend is mandatory.

I still think a flat 30 is better.

[Cheretep]

I am not saying Firewall SHOULD be 15s/30s. I'm just saying 15s/30s is BETTER THAN 30s flat.

I am not experienced enough to say what actual duration should be. Maybe 20s/40s or 1s/lvl or 10s + 1s/2lvls or something else.

The point is metamagics should have reasonable effect. It has duration, so extend should apply. Adjust the base duration so that the spell is not overpowered.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

It currently doesn't deal much less than say a fireball, but once this goes live it likely will.

That one thing is going to have a bigger impact on WoF than anything else that has been proposed, but that's the one part that people are ignoring.
Reduce the damage against undead. Reduce the dice to true dice rather than weighted. Add a save for half upon entering the wall. Increase the cost.
And now people want to drop it to a max of 7 tics?
7 tics might not, and in many cases definitely won't, get the job done, which means extend is mandatory.

I still think a flat 30 is better.

Reduction in dmg vs undead is more than fine. Firewall is already overpowered as hell in its base damage, the fact that it does twice that vs undead is just rediculous.
The true dice change wont affect it much, since most of firewalls damage comes from +20, rather than the dice. It'll drop about 5ish damage base, if even.
The ref save on entering wont change much, it'll be like BB, and they don't save BB that often, and considering you'll just be able to block (or hold them =*1,5 dmg) in the firewalls to avoid the save.

7 ticks is still more than 3 times the damage of a fireball.

[Auran82]

I think the main loss with regard to the undead damage is freaking wraiths and other incorporeal undead which are only slightly bearable because you can stack firewalls around the place and stand in them hoping they happen to zone in within the firewalls area of effect.

[zebidos]

When this goes on the preview server can you please allow sorcs to quickly change spells so we can test it out?

Because if the preview is only up for 2 weeks and we can only change one spell every three days, might be a issue with getting decent feedback on how its all working.


Thanks.

[Calebro]

Reduction in dmg vs undead is more than fine. Firewall is already overpowered as hell in its base damage, the fact that it does twice that vs undead is just rediculous.
The true dice change wont affect it much, since most of firewalls damage comes from +20, rather than the dice. It'll drop about 5ish damage base, if even.
The ref save on entering wont change much, it'll be like BB, and they don't save BB that often, and considering you'll just be able to block (or hold them =*1,5 dmg) in the firewalls to avoid the save.

7 ticks is still more than 3 times the damage of a fireball.

The base damage has always been low. It gets it's power from enhancements, potency, and metas. I think dropping the base by ~4 points is going to make a bigger difference than you're giving credit for.
Not that I'm opposed to these changes at all. I'm happy to see WoF getting a nerf while other spells get a boost. I just find it funny that the one change that will affect WoF more than any other is the one that no one is complaining about.

[Templarion]

Change is good.

Brings some fresh winds here!

[Picker]

So firewall is nerferd ok i can live with that other than using it in ToD i don’t use it much once im in amrath as the mobs are immune to fire. Still sucks that its going to cost more and not a lot we can do about it.

Burning hands/Melf’s Acid Arrow – meh really once im past lvl 6 i never use these spells they don’t do enough damage to make it worthwhile and you need to be in range of melee to cast hands which means your dead as soon as something swings for you. If you cast Melfs it’s a waste of sp as a decent melee will take the HP off quicker than you can cast it.

Scorching ray – my spell of choice when going for quick cast options all the way through, annoying that it cant be enlarged but I can work with that. – ray targeting should have been fixed last update its freaky seeing your ray hitting the roof because the mob is standing next to you.

Delayed Cast fireball – never use it, as i prefer throwing normal fireballs

Incendiary cloud – not my fave cast I don’t like using clouds but I can see the reason if firewall has been nerfed – the only cloud I cast is acid cloud or cloud kill for boss fights and that’s just for the conceal or to kill bats in VoD

Polar ray – Not too bothered would be better if the cooldown was reduced a bit to compensate for the enlarge not working. Hope you don’t touch the other cold spells.


Firewall – Please leave this alone for the last 3 updates its been nerfed each time if your going to do it again give us an alternative that actually will be useful – discounting ice storm because it was better on Lama before they again nerfed the damage.

_ _ _
How about as an idea:

Acid storm upgrade to acid hands)– causes a raging whirlwind of acid to flow from your hands this settles on the floor making it slippery mobs that don’t make their balance check are pushed back and the secondary affect makes them trip???

Curtain of lightening – causes a lightening storm to form on a designated spot mobs passing through this are stunned unless they make a reflex save.

_ _ _
Spell point regen – looking at this it seems quite good until you realise all the low level spells that cap early and are of little use later cost up to 12 sp while the ones you actually need to cast in later quests i.e. firewall/polar ray cost more than 12 sp makes this a useless feature after lvl 10…. Unless you allow feats/enhancements that will increase the regen limit i..e enhancement line to increase limit by 20sp each time up to 100 sp ????

Still looking at traps/death affects so no opinion yet.

On the whole looks like the nuke mage is going to be put on the shelf and the CC mage is getting a dust off

[Absolute-Omniscience]

The base damage has always been low. It gets it's power from enhancements, potency, and metas. I think dropping the base by ~4 points is going to make a bigger difference than you're giving credit for.
Not that I'm opposed to these changes at all. I'm happy to see WoF getting a nerf while other spells get a boost. I just find it funny that the one change that will affect WoF more than any other is the one that no one is complaining about.

Well, it goes from
30 average (2d6 (weighted dice) +20)
To
27 average (2d6 (non-weighted dice) +20)

Which is a lose of about 10% dps, but then we're getting enhancements that's 50% rather than 40%, so...

[Calebro]

Well, it goes from
30 average (2d6 (weighted dice) +20)
To
27 average (2d6 (non-weighted dice) +20)

Which is a lose of about 10% dps, but then we're getting enhancements that's 50% rather than 40%, so...

Ah, right. I had forgotten about the extra 10% for a moment.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

On the whole looks like the nuke mage is going to be put on the shelf and the CC mage is getting a dust off

What?
It's more or less the exact opposite.
Nuking mages are going to be really good (read: overpowered), while mass hold mages are going to be a bit more normalized (Read: not overpowered).

[yodino]

FW nerf = TR into water savant. Problem solved!

[Absolute-Omniscience]

FW nerf = TR into water savant. Problem solved!

OR
Earth savant - Melfs (gonna have really good constant DPS at low cost) + acid fog (if it stacks now, or just take one or the other) + Burning hands (probably gonna get changed too, except it to be great) + meteor shower

AND
max fire line - Firewall (unlike if you're water, it wont get gimped) + Burning hands (half is fire, half is earth) + meteor shower (half is fire, half is earth) + incindiary cloud (same as acid fog)

=
REALLY good dot effects (burning hands, firewall, incindiary, melfs, acid fog) and really good pure nuking (meteor shower + delayed blast fireball)

Or potentially air savant, if Chain lightning gets the same effect as lighting = 36d6 dmg, = highest dmg spell in the game (not to mention it's aoe).

[dunklezhan]

When this goes on the preview server can you please allow sorcs to quickly change spells so we can test it out?

Because if the preview is only up for 2 weeks and we can only change one spell every three days, might be a issue with getting decent feedback on how its all working.


Thanks.

On Lammania, see sir pointsalot, get free TPs. Buy a lesser heart of wood from the store. Lesser reincarnate and respec all your spells. Problem solved.

Its sorting ourselves out on live that's got me worried. Personally, I've decided to give earth savant with a force secondary line a go, and have started switching my spells around now.