Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

[voodoogroves]

I suppose you can look at it that way. But I think you're overestimating the nerf on hold monster. It's still going to be amazing, just not "use it or be useless" and "use it and its super-easy".
THe only thing that is really nerfed is the CC part of a caster, and that being hold monster primarly. Which doesn't get that nerfed to be honest ,classes such as rogues will be a lot stronger now, and monks will be relatively stronger, etc.
Bottom line: for the current end game, and probably the upcoming endgame, this change will be a huge buff to casters. And there will be more playstyles than just CC.

I'm not being chicken little / doom gloom saying it will be horrible.

I'm saying I don't want it to be horrible, but these multiple-changes-at-once leaves open big risks it will over compensate.


CC is getting a reduction.

DPS from whatever source is getting a boost.

CC and save-or-lose is where Wizard's live, and some Sorcerers. My worry is now they become just DPS with as much CC as a Barb w/ stunning blow.

Not a prediction, not a sky-is-falling ... my worry.

[Aurora1979]

<Deleted as the issues been resloved further up. I always appreciate someone willing to admit their error.>

On topic..... I still feel unhappy with these changes as proposed..... Im going to just wait and see what its like after the update now though. I was going to TR my Wiz, but Ill wait till after.

[andbr22]

Elite harbor kobolds gona be deadly (around 30 dmg lighting bolt + 50% for 60 (lucky guys will save)).
Too many changes in too short time. People won't be pleased. playing caster won't as usefull
-> also you give casters unlimited SP what would say for that these Sovergin Host FvS if their capstone bocome wothless, as everyone gona be able to cast cure light wounds for free (ok 1 feat).

[dunklezhan]

I'm not sure I understand how CC casters are 'nerfed'.

Based on the changes outlined:

• Largely CC costs remained the same

• HD/HP caps we’re removed from most effects (yeah, I guess I should talk about death effects now, but oh, sleep works now!)

• Many debuffs had their cost reduced, and some had carrier debuffs added to them that temporarily reduced will saves regardless if the target saved against the original debuff.

Examples:

Crushing Depair: Cost reduced to 20 SP, now applies a weakn will effect for 15 seconds regardless of saving throw from original effect (will -5).

Touch of Idocy: Cost reduced to 5 SP, Now also weaks foes will save for -5 for 15 seconds regardless of save.

The notion is saving many of our under used debuffs and allow casters to punch harder targets/hit more reliably and get longer effect out of effects with quick re-occurring saves. That’s is if their willing to use a spell slot, and the spell points.

Far as I can tell, they've opened up more options for us CC-ers in the form of cheaper debuffs (some of which have been improved) to help our direct (cost unchanged - not increased, simply not changed) CC spells land more reliably, removed (some? all?) HD caps - not clear what this means in practice except that sleep now apparently 'works' - and that's just the stuff we know about.

What did I miss?

Sure it might be more efficient for those who nuke now to nuke in future, but how is your CC suite of spells affected by this if you were never a nuker in the first place? Debuffs help the party at large, and your CC (hold, charm, suggest whatever) still seem to do what they did before: Your other party members continue to beat on the mobs if they're held (it may take them longer to kill them now but will it really take them longer than the spell lasts? I don't think we can know that until the changes are in), or the mob continues to fight for you as it did before. What's the problem?

I could be misinterpreting what is meant by CC. Are you talking about the death effects and the cooldowns? I certainly don't like that but I don't consider those CC, I consider those nuke spells since when they land properly they directly result in, well death, rather than 'control'.

In any case, it sounds to me that the overall effect of the changes is to introduce more options. People are always complaining about the dumbing down of DDO - how are more options dumbing down?

TL; DR : I've read maybe half the thread (stopped at about P10) and I really don't see what has been 'nerfed' about control tactics. I only see improvements to these (removal of autocrit on helpless for melees is bad for them... but +50% damage from spells is good for casters). Can someone tell me what have I missed?

not looking to troll or start a fight. Would be grateful for more understanding though.

[DelverRootnose]

I suppose you can look at it that way. But I think you're overestimating the nerf on hold monster. It's still going to be amazing, just not "use it or be useless" and "use it and its super-easy".
THe only thing that is really nerfed is the CC part of a caster, and that being hold monster primarly. Which doesn't get that nerfed to be honest ,classes such as rogues will be a lot stronger now, and monks will be relatively stronger, etc.
Bottom line: for the current end game, and probably the upcoming endgame, this change will be a huge buff to casters. And there will be more playstyles than just CC.

There were always more play styles than CC for a caster. However, they did not get groups. CC was the most efficient playstyle for a group. With casters now just relagated to elemental canons there is no reason for a group not to replace the caster with a standard melee class that does not have the limitation of finite SP.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Now back to the actual content. No I do not think these changes will increase the crit polar ray from 3000 to 5000 especially with the other changes that make it unlikely I will be able to keep my current enhancement line. However, you are correct, 3000 point one strike does not equal DPS. With longer cool down timers and shorter duration this will reduce, not increase a wizards DPS. Since melees get multiple strikes per second, and having no SP bar, have no limitation to how long they can keep the DPS at maximum this will further make melees stronger than any caster at end game bosses. This will make caster even less needed, especially in epic content. Crowd control was the only reason casters were allowed in epic content. Without auto crit on mass hold monster for example why would a group bring a caster on epic von one.

3000*1,75=5250, where the *1,75 is the curse effect. It's just that good, not to mention that you get another +6 caster levels to it (as sorceror).
The offensive spells' cooldown are not getting increased, it's just the death-effect ones that have their cooldown increased. And that's just because they'll actually work on epic mobs now (which is a HUGE buff to all casters, especially high dc ones).
I do not pull DPS numbers out of the air you know, I actually calculate this, using advanced "programs" that Axayeu and I have created. They will have 1500 DPS (on a cursed mob), and as I said before, that's almost three times as much as perfectly geared barbarian.
And the thing with SP limitations is that it's almost going to be a thing of the past. With the SLAs for sorcerors they'll be able to keep close with the melees' damage with just their free spells.

They'll bring one because they'll have the highest damage in the game, and because *1,5 damage from all sources (along with aoe insta-kill spells) will be VERY useful in epic quests.

Also, you still did not answer my question about the arch mage chain missile. The answer is because to get the needed requirements you have to spend so many feats and enhancement points you weaken yourself to much in other areas like SP and HP.

While that is the case for wizards, it is not so for sorcerors (the ones designed to be nukers), since they don't really sacrifice anything by going savant. (They sacrifice stuff, but nothing compared to what they gain).

Let me ask you this, do you even play a wizard that is not a pale master or a sorc? On my account I have 22 characters, most are just equipment mules, 6 of which are level 20. I know what I am talking about and these changes will make it really unfun to play my wizard and even harder to find a group since having one caster per raid is now the norm and this will become no casters per group since clerics and bards can do the buffing. Crowd control was not overpowered and was the only reason wizards were taken on many quests. This is a change that was not asked for, solving a problem that was not present.

Neither of us really knows how it will be like. We can only assume, but at least I've got an open mind about it, and at least I calculate DPS, and evaluate different quests before I set my opinion in stone.

[Malithar45]

There are many things that DDO does is which is different, particularly a spellpoint sysem. In the older games, a lvl 1 wizard can only cast 2 lvl 1 spells day, at Int 18. How would that fare in fast-paced MMORPG? The whole SP system is distinction away from the P&P, and it's an ongoing gradual process where Turbine is continually fine-tweaking. And this is something I accept, that while this game was based on D&D, it by no ways is a complete reconstruction of traditional P&P D&D.

+1 but you apparently posted something else awesome lately. :P

[Absolute-Omniscience]

There were always more play styles than CC for a caster. However, they did not get groups. CC was the most efficient playstyle for a group. With casters now just relagated to elemental canons there is no reason for a group not to replace the caster with a standard melee class that does not have the limitation of finite SP.

So, now that more playstyles are available (dps, insta-kill), cc all of a sudden becomes useless just because hold goes from auto crit to *1,5 dmg?

[Thaxlsillyia]

I'm not sure I understand how CC casters are 'nerfed'.

not looking to troll or start a fight. Would be grateful for more understanding though.

i personally feel CC got a big boost with the -5 to will saves even on saves against crushing despair etc. perhaps this will off set the proposed increase in epic mob saves a little and make CC still possible. i see epic raid goups now having 2 arcanes, one for CC and one evocation guy to toast them by using the reduced reflex saves of held mobs+50% bonus damage. the real lose is probably for the guys who made dual GS heavy picks.

[PopeJual]

I'm not sure I understand how CC casters are 'nerfed'.

Based on the changes outlined:

Far as I can tell, they've opened up more options for us CC-ers in the form of cheaper debuffs (some of which have been improved) to help our direct (cost unchanged - not increased, simply not changed) CC spells land more reliably, removed (some? all?) HD caps - not clear what this means in practice except that sleep now apparently 'works' - and that's just the stuff we know about.

What did I miss?

-Increased saves on enemies (especially Epic mobs),
-the addition of a Spell Resistance check on Mass Hold Monster,
-the removal of auto-hit from the helpless state (which will probably be just as big a problem for CC casters who want to solo content than the removal of auto-crit even though it won't have much of an effect on real melee folks)
-and the downgrade from autocrit to +50% damage that will have a severe impact on both Heavy Picks and Dreamspitters which are two of the primary ways that a 98 pound weakling can end up killing a monster without taking a rediculous amount of time.

It's entirely possible that a CC focused caster will still be able to solo many Epic quests, but there are some very definiate nerfs coming in with the general rebalancing. I'm not going to cry DOOOOOOOOM!!!1! yet because it's entirely possible that the total effect of rebalancing will have a positive impact on the game, but CC casters look like they're going to be one of the losers and not one of the winners in this update.

Edit: reformatted for clarity

[Rawel_San]

For Robi: the change is twofold: change to helplesness being not autocrit anymore means it's nowhere near
as usefull as it was (less damage on mob from almost all classes except maybe rogues and casters) and moreover
no more dreamspitter/shadow staff to make sure the mob stays held.
That coupled with the increase of saves will (most probably) lead to holds not landing as often and when they do land
not holding nearly as long. At the same time no more autohit means many classes will probably have trouble hitting
even held oponents.

The rest is about changes to dps spells so doesn't really apply to cc.

[Riorik]

Wall of Fire now has Extend built In. Free Extend, Free Enlarge for all of these spells.

I think this isn't exactly correct unless you're implying that being locked to a 30 second duration regardless of whether extend is toggled means what you're stating.

Overall, my biggest issue is just that we haven't seen *all* the changes, yet. I'm expecting the real difference is the new scheme is just going to separate the wheat from the chaff...for arcane casters...and place additional stress on spell selection as a critical game skill.

[DelverRootnose]

So, now that more playstyles are available (dps, insta-kill), cc all of a sudden becomes useless just because hold goes from auto crit to *1,5 dmg?

this statment proves you have no idea how most casters, and many smart melees, kill things that are in autocrit status. And yes this and the many other changes now seem to make casters into elemental DPS bots which can and will be replaced by pure melee classes. Unless all debuff immunities are removed from purple named raid bosses casters, especilly wizards, will be so inferior to pure melee toon they will be replaced in most groups by another barbarian.

[Thaxlsillyia]

Increased saves on enemies (especially Epic mobs), the addition of a Spell Resistance check on Mass Hold Monster, the removal of auto-hit from the helpless state (which will probably be just as big a problem for CC casters who want to solo content than the removal of auto-crit even though it won't have much of an effect on real melee folks) and the downgrade from autocrit to +50% damage that will have a severe impact on both Heavy Picks and Dreamspitters which are two of the primary ways that a 98 pound weakling can end up killing a monster without taking a rediculous amount of time.

It's entirely possible that a CC focused caster will still be able to solo many Epic quests, but there are some very definiate nerfs coming in with the general rebalancing. I'm not going to cry DOOOOOOOOM!!!1! yet because it's entirely possible that the total effect of rebalancing will have a positive impact on the game, but CC casters look like they're going to be one of the losers and not one of the winners in this update.

may be time to triple tr the wiz before the update for the past lifes and then cap it on CC mode. i still feel the 50% damage bonus on held stuff is going to be THE most effective way to kill stuff. CC will never die!
as for dweemspitters getting useless, may be its time to load up circle of death for mass lvl draining effect on mass held creatures (nice to know its going to be useful outside of elite fav runs in the harbor)

[dunklezhan]

Thanks for your explanation PopeJ.

I see what you're saying with the most of your post. I disagree on a couple of points, and I suspect only playtesting will really show who's right. Still:

I disagree that the 50% damage on held mobs is going to cause 'more' problems for solo casters since they'll also now take a 50% damage from spells too - cloudkill or some other persistent AOE + hold will now cause more damage. Accept that they won't be able to wail on mobs with a dreamspitter reliably though.

The SR check on hold will, yes, certainly be a problem for mobs with high SR (drow, for instance), but it makes sense for there to be an SR check.

This one threw me though:

Increased saves on enemies (especially Epic mobs),

The increased saves on enemies... where did this come from? I haven't seen anything form a dev on that? Which enemies are getting increased saves? Are they just restoring the old saves to Epics or is this a more general change?

[DelverRootnose]

People might want to think about the changes to autocrit in helpless state some more. What if these changes effect auto crit brought on by weakening/enfeebling handwraps or the that nice shinny wounding/puncturing pick you have. Going from x3 on your kophesh to x1.5 will be a real shocker for you.

[voodoogroves]

not looking to troll or start a fight. Would be grateful for more understanding though.

Yep, no worries.


Others have covered some of the specifics.

Setting up multiple spell chains is nice on paper, but are you really going to be running around, targeting, crushing despair, energy drain, dance/hold? Would it be faster just to blast it with a cheap/nigh-free DPS spell?

It's not the individual changes, it's the systemic ones. If crushing despair + hold is essentialy the same DC target from before, that's not really a boost. Maybe the SP cost is even the same as mass hold used to be. The fact is the coordinated synchronization won't be trivial in lots of content, monster AI is going to make it so you don't get everyone in group one that you do in group two, etc. If it becomes more of a pain to use, then whether or not the math comes out to be equivalent it may simply be impractical in much of the content.

[Rawel_San]

The minion status is going, so yes essentially they are restoring the old saves on enemies from what I can tell.
Now if the wiki is right this means an increase of saves by 10. That is a huge nerf to cc even ignoring the
helpless status change.

[Razcar]

I ask you, are you defending D&D or Turbine? Because Turbine's marred what D&D stands for, so thinking that your trying to defend the game system we've all grown up with might have your loyalties in the wrong place.

DDO shouldn't steer away from changes that could make it a better computer game and MMO only the basis that it would defile D&D rules.

That would be like forcing a film adaptation to exactly follow the book it is based on - it wouldn't work as they are different mediums. And this is also a view not only held by Turbine, but apparently shared by WotC as well.

PnP D&D is still out there you know. And you can make your own game as conservative taliban traditionalist true-to-the-word-of-Gygax as you like.

[PopeJual]

Thanks for your explanation PopeJ.

I see what you're saying with the most of your post. I disagree on a couple of points, and I suspect only playtesting will really show who's right. Still:

I disagree that the 50% damage on held mobs is going to cause 'more' problems for solo casters since they'll also now take a 50% damage from spells too - cloudkill or some other persistent AOE + hold will now cause more damage. Accept that they won't be able to wail on mobs with a dreamspitter reliably though.

Before U9, though, a caster could make an enemy helpless and the spend 0 spell points to kill the critter. After U9, the caster can make an enemy helpless and then spend lots of spell points (depending on the critter's total HP even with the decrease in Epic trash HP) to kill the critter even with the new, reduced spell point costs. Damage per spell point (efficiency) is going to matter and the new, cheaper spell point costs will certainly help with that. Metamagic costs are not going down, though, so if you need to kill the held monster in a reasonable amount of time, your spell point costs are still going to be significant when you have Maximise or Empower (or both) turned on.

The increased saves on enemies... where did this come from? I haven't seen anything form a dev on that? Which enemies are getting increased saves? Are they just restoring the old saves to Epics or is this a more general change?

There are enough dev posts that I'm actually starting to get a little confused myself, but I believe that Eladrin said that the changes that they are making are going to allow them to dump the "minion" debuff from Epic trash while they remove the univeral Death Ward from pretty much everything in the game aside from red/purple named monsters. Or something similar. I don't have the developer quote available currently, but I'll try to track it down today.