Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

[sirgog]

You realize this means I'm going to have to think when I kite TOD now.

EDIT: Actually this mean that the Shadows in TOD get a reflex save, so if they pass it I don't actually get their aggro and they'll kill the party.

Pros- I can kill the party and pretend I'm upset about it
Cons- The party might expect me to use some other spell, and not die.

Meh, just get a favored soul to kite it whenever one is available. Ten times easier than having an arcane do it anyway, and Nytharios doesn't do enough damage to warrant having more than one healer on the raid.

If no FvS is available, well, you can do it the hard way with Incindiary Cloud, Firewall, Acid Fog, Icestorm, or whatever.

[ddo4u]

Looks like will be burning twice as much mana for the same effect in U9

Hey! It just so happens that spell point pots are 50% off in the DDO store today.
Guess we should all just stock up now, eh?

[Raiderone]

Wall of fire and Rangers might be tied now for most nerf'd.

When was the last time you saw a ranger in a high level raid.

Maybe your just playing with the wrong rangers? AA's have become the rage lately.
So maybe you are playing with them. PEW PEW PEW...

TWF Tempest Rangers have no problem keeping up with DPS.
TWF was nerf'd more than Rangers. Tempest III's are still the best at TWF.

[Zerkul]

Tempest III's are still the best at TWF.

You forget TWF Kensai.

[Chette]

Let me preface this by saying that I am glad you are making significant changes to how arcane casters function. Right now it seems there is 1 and only 1 way to play a caster. Levels 1:6 (or 7) melee. Levels 7(or 8) to 20 firewall. Level 20 mass hold. I have tried a few variations on a theme, playing around with archmage, and always found it significantly poorer than the traditional fire/enchant caster. However, it seems what you are doing here is mostly just reducing the effectiveness of casters rather than giving them more flexibility and options. We want to try new things, we really do, but you have given us much choice. Here are a few items I have issue with.

1. Changes to spell point cost. Eg lightning bolt. Was 20 sp now 10 sp. Wow, half cost right? Not so much. An old maximized, empowered, quickened, lightning bolt was (20+25+15+10) 70 sp. A new one is 60 sp. This of course doesn't account for heighten at all, which most casters leave on all the time because, despite frequent requests, the devs have not implemented any way to turn metamagics on or off on specific spells. So that old lightning bold was 100 sp and the new one may be 90 sp, depending on how the heightening of spells now works. Single target spells, no matter how low you reduce their cost, will never replace firewall. Single target spells are great against bosses that aren't immune, and are used frequently (I love polar ray!) but they will never compare to something like firewall for trash dps.

2. Wall of Fire reflex save. Thematically, this doesn't make much sense to me, but lets ignore that for a moment. By adding a save I assume you will be making this spell heightenable. So now no only is the spell point increased, but there is potentially another 25 sp wasted on heightening it. If you think it does too much damage, reduce the damage calculation, but adding a save like this makes little sense.

3. Wall of Fire unextendable. This makes absolutely no sense. Any spell with a duration should be extendable. Again, if you think it does too much damage, reduce the damage calculation, or reduce the duration overall. If the spell is overpowered FIX it, but don't just break the rules of magic to do so.

4. Echoes of Power. This will be essentially useless past the first few levels. I like that you are attempting to give wizards who are "running on empty" something to do, but to be effective it needs to be scaleable. I'll do more damage meleeing than pew pewing a level 1 spell every 10 seconds.

[Aeolwind]

Lol, if they nerf blade barrier like this, they'll have to allow hirelings in raids, or boost bard healing, or everyone will have to switch to wf and wizards will become the clerics.

Hyperbole yes, but it would have an impact.

[Raiderone]

Meh, just get a favored soul to kite it whenever one is available. Ten times easier than having an arcane do it anyway, and Nytharios doesn't do enough damage to warrant having more than one healer on the raid.

If no FvS is available, well, you can do it the hard way with Incindiary Cloud, Firewall, Acid Fog, Icestorm, or whatever.

Don't worry BB's will be nerf'd next. Maybe they'll give them a reflex and fort save!

[Trillea]

Don't worry BB's will be nerf'd next. Maybe they'll give them a reflex and fort save!

Nope, they will have a 30 sec duration, unextendable, like every DoT here. Asinine IMO.

[goodoldxelos]

Please do not neglect trap the soul. Can we get a slight change to trap the soul so we can affect epic mobs assuming they have same hitdie numbers in the next update. ie. tiny=15 small =25 average=35.

[ddo4u]

Nope, they will have a 30 sec duration, unextendable, like every DoT here. Asinine IMO.

This is why I was asking Torc for input on the Divine side of things, because if it does end up this way, I can just stop gearing my cleric now, rename her, and TR into something else.

[protokon]

looks like i can save a char slot and drop my sorc.

I'm ahead of you on that one buddy, I deleted my sorc 2 months ago, was thinking of buying him back but definitely won't be after this!

[asphodeli]

wow, arcanes can add debuffbot to the holdbot/hastebot list. And what's with the extend feat, since some of the spells may not even be affected by it? I am somewhat neutral on this, will have to wait for Lammania to be updated to see how the changes go.

PS: Any changes to divine/ranger/paladin/bard spells? *cough cough*

[Chette]

PS: Any changes to divine/ranger/paladin/bard spells? *cough cough*

Good god man don't give them any ideas!!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)

This one strikes me as overnerf. Only 30 seconds? Pathetic. Most most of the punch against undead? Sad.

With these changes it doesn't deserve an increase in SP cost, it deserves a decrease.

And if blade barrier gets the same 30 second cap I'll be sad indeed. It's not like Clerics/FvS have a huge spell selection.

[cforce]

The New Thing is strong in this thread.




The possibility that I might choose to spec *out* of Wall of Fire on my sorc? <squeal like schoolgirl and clap hands>! I'm sick to death of Wall of Fire after Wall of Fire after Wall of Fire. I'll wait to see how all of this feels on Lam, but I strongly approve of the design directions laid out.

[Aurora1979]

Let me preface this by saying that I am glad you are making significant changes to how arcane casters function. Right now it seems there is 1 and only 1 way to play a caster. Levels 1:6 (or 7) melee. Levels 7(or 8) to 20 firewall. Level 20 mass hold. I have tried a few variations on a theme, playing around with archmage, and always found it significantly poorer than the traditional fire/enchant caster. However, it seems what you are doing here is mostly just reducing the effectiveness of casters rather than giving them more flexibility and options. We want to try new things, we really do, but you have given us much choice. Here are a few items I have issue with.

really?

i do it different. 1-4-5 melee.

5- 7 spells.

8-20 spells

20+ spells

Example, I soloed wizking epic tonight. I used, excluding buffs.

Wall of fire (predictably)
Halt undead
Ottos irresistable dance
Hold monster
Energy drain


now, look at those spells, you will see that generally i had 2 ways to fight.

Firewall, and kite/ perch whichever is your preferance.

hold/dance drain, and beat down with a dreamspitter.

Problem is, hold wont work for me now, as i cant level drain with my spitter.

Firewall will no longer be as effective. (slightly bad example here as I do think post nerf it will still be enough for undead heavy quests)

But in general, you can see.... with the new update... whats my choices to replace those?

Think I shouldnt be soloing wiz king epic? fair enough. Lets take a group run yesterday in snitch...

Hold monster
OID
Energy drain
Disco
Cloudkill
Firewall.

How about in party crashers, which i also ran yesterday....

OID
Energy drain
Firewall
Hold monster


.....

see its not that these are the only spells i WANT to use.... its the fact that these are the only spells that are effective enough TO use.

Another though.... 1 have 2200 odd sp. after buffs nearer 1900.

If I was to use direct damage spells i would get.... what 30 odd spells.... now, assuming 3 spells to kill a mob thats 10 mobs I can nuke before im out of mana.

Insta kills? Well, wail and fod will still be ok. Im not sure on circle of death, having never used it yet. But PWK with a 4 min cool down is just not worth slotting.

Cast it once in a mob fight and wait the next 2-3 mobs fights before the cool downs ready.....

I dont begrudge the changes, per say, I begrudge the fact that they have nerfed what I, and many others, built for using the only mana effective methods. We have not been given a replacment for that.

Sure, some spells are cheaper but I doubt very much that my chars going to make a good single shot spell nuker.

[Kriogen]

...
PS: Any changes to divine/ranger/paladin/bard spells? *cough cough*

Yes. Bush spell has 30 sec duration, can't be extended and has ref+fort save for zero damage.

But good news is Flamestrike costs 5 SP less. Divine nuke FTW. Oh, and you can now cast none-meta'd CLW every 10 seconds. Your pally will solo heal elite ToD with zero mana pots!

[bigolbear]

The changes to HD or HP limited spells are good - this is effectively giving us a bunch of new spells as previously they were unusable.

The changes to cooldowns are crazy - leave the **** cooldowns alone, or change the spells with sily cooldowns back to 6 seconds.

The changes to spell point cost are IRRELEVANT until we see what is going on with metamagics.
Its one thing to note that a spell only costs 40% of what it did previously but if the metamagic costs stay as is then the total spell point reduction will be trivial (aprox 5%).

Wall of fire should be fixed by fixing mob AI and if wall of fire is going to be a reflex save on entry then id suggest blade barrier becomes the same - reflex on entry with ticking for full damage on anything inside - infact this could go for all persistant AOE's and actualy brings them closer to pen and paper.

There is no reason to disalow metamagics on any spell, infact let us alocate metamagics when we drag a spell to our task bar so we dont have to swap them on and off.

Should the cost of metamagics not change then what we will end up with is a cheap way for all casters to basicly tickle the enemy to death eventualy on the cheap or cast a real spell with all the metas turned on.

With the massive hit point inflation in DDO spell damage needs doubling as standard and cost increasing to match to make turning on metamagics a choice rather than mandatory.

The regenerating mana is contrary to one of the most fundamental aspects of DDO compared to other mmos - were suposed to have limited resources, first turn atempts now mana.. you might as well just change the name to dungeons and WOW online.

I will wait to see how this all pans out AND i will probaly wait to see if you fix it the mistakes. I know its important to capture the new market from other mmos but please dont ruin what made ddo so good that the vets stuck with it depsite all the grief.

Over time this game has become about how much damage mele can do with casters in a support role, it has become simpler and easier, if you want to make the game easier for low lvls then fine but the midgame and end game are fine aprt from epic which as you know is thouraly borked.

I will conclude with this:
Tred lightly, things arent as broken as you think. let this roll on lama land for a good while and for goodness sake LISTEN to the fans your powerd by.

[pjw]

It seems were are in the process of removing some odd and annoying special rules (like arbitrary.immunities and HP limits that have no place in dro) so we should be careful not to replace then with other arbitrary and non-sensical rules. So:

- Extend should be applicable to any non-instant spell
- Enlarge should work on any spell with a range more than 'touch'
- fire should do double damage to undead

I worry about the fw changes, but want to see them play out alongside ice storm, for example. It does seem brave to increase the cost the spell at the same time as it's effectiveness is reduced.

[Requiro]

Thanks for information

(...)The full details will be released soon(...)
Hope that very soon

SPELL COST TO EFFECT RATIOS CHANGES:
Great!

(...)When you looked at the math, folks get very attached to certain spells, namely “wall of fire” for very logical reasons. This is a shame considering the art/dev resources devoted to the creation of so many other spells also floating in the system.
Completely agreed. Glad that you see this.

(...)While loyal to our roots (...)
Please remember this. DnD system is great. We don't want another WoWish MMO

(...)examples(...)

(...)5. Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)(...)
Good idea. I have only problem with additional damage for undeads. Additional 2d6 is a little too low in my opinion. Maybe 2d4 + (1 / 3 caster level)?

(...)8. Polar Ray (Cost down to 15 SP, range doubled, can no longer be enlarged, ray targeting has been improved.)(...)
Problem with efficiency. Who will use 45 SP for 25 avg damage (New Incendiary Cloud) if I can shoot in the same cost (3x15SP) for 300 avg damage (3x100)? Can be the same problem like with Wall of Fire today.

(...) Essentially the cost of spells are being weighted now much more on their performance, method of engagement and the number of targets they effect(...)
Good idea. But please don't go too far from pure DnD system (like no more static damage please... Dice is the core of DnD)


WHAT ABOUT CC?
IMO: Not need to much changes. The showed one are good so far.

DEATH EFFECTS:
(...)
• Death spells had their cool downs increased(...)Good if their power grown. Bad if don't (...)
• Death spell on save damage was increased, so a blue hexagon won’t be a total waste of spell points Very nice. But can't be too powerful to not be better solution then pure damaging spells yet there will be more agro. We realize this and currently approve. Attempting to death a monster is a hate-able offense. YES I like this kind of thinking Very good idea. More logic in game made it more attractive
(...)

Circle of Death:

Rains dark energy into an area. Living Creatures are subject to a death effect; getting a reflex save and then a fortitude save to avoid death. Targets who succeed against the reflex save suffer no ill effect, but creatures who success against the fortitude save will still lose 1d4 energy levels.
Why no effect with reflex save? Something small (like 2d6 untyped damage) is better then nothing

Power word: Kill!
Upper hit point cap removed except in PVP. Kills, no save, but spell resistance applies.
240 second cool down for wizards, 210 second cool down for sorcerors
Hmm.. I don't know what to say. Super instakill is nice, but this colddown is so long… Still can be useful, because there is no good IX spells. Maybe less colddown? Something like 200 Wiz / 140 Sorc.


SPELL POINT REGEN – Echoes of Power:


• Echoes of power will appear when a player drops below 12 SP.
• Echoes of power will allow the player to regenerate at a rate of 4 SP every 6 seconds.
• Echoes of power will remove itself once a player reaches 12 SP or greater.

Ok. After reading this over and over and think about consequences I think that this is good idea. But I suggest to increase the regenerate time (4SP for 8-10 second). Why? Because this is balance time for low levels, when you do quest more slowly. But for high levels (with more action) this will be only like last hope SL-a shoot, rather then normal tactic. And what about Archmage and Tier 5 SL-a? They are cost 15 SP and can't be cast with this ability

ETERNAL WANDS:

Not going to go into details here yet but eternals wands got a pass that increased their recharge regeneration rate and added desirable caster mutations.
This is nice news Waiting for more

-Torc
DDO Game Systems

Comments in yellow

My question is:
- Are there any changes in Pale Master and Archmage PrE with new Arcane Casting system?
- Are there any changes in Create Undead, Slow, Symbols spells?
- Are spell clickies on weapons will be change as well?
- Are Bard spell will be change as well?