Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

[Raveneia]

Whats with the changes?

can't just leave the game as is

seems turbine are never happy till they keep nerfing and nerfing soon we won't have a game left

I mean its great for the low lev spells costing less but seriously past a certain level you don't even use half those spells
and Archmages get them cheap anyway..

and leave the cooldowns alone too

[xxHazexx]

5. Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)




-Torc
DDO Game Systems

[Calebro]

So.. are metamagics getting changed?

Cuz changing spell base cost without changing metamagics seems to be a lesson in futility.

This is exactly what I was thinking.

[Lifespawn]

Hey, looks like I can save a feat on my sorc and drop extend.

sweet

looks like i can save a char slot and drop my sorc.

[Lycurgus]

I have to applaud the devs for trying to redefine the role of arcanes. It's something that's been needed for some time, and this seems like a considered approach to doing so.

My one major concern is the increased cost of enhancements. Combined with what appears to be a push for casters to rely more on nuking and SLAs (which I find utterly boring, but that's another story), the changes we've seen appear as though they're going to place severe limitations on arcane versatility.

Is there ANY chance that the timer for respeccing enhancements will be reduced/removed?

[Kriogen]

Looks like will be burning twice as much mana for the same effect in U9

[yodino]

The more time I spend on this game, the more it keeps drifting away from PnP. If I wanted to learn something new, I'd rather play a totally new game. Somehow these changes leave a bad taste in my mouth as an Archmage. It's being dumbed down to accomodate noobs.

Oh well, Iif these changes push through it's just another nail in the coffin for DDO. Star Wars: The Old Republic is coming out soon, and it looks like the spell change has made up my mind about which game I'll be playing.

[Soul-Shaker]

No longer DnD ;p just about all the rules changing. ;p

This pass is starting to look like:

• Sorc losing their 1/2 cooldown ability as there isn't enough difference on short timer spells. Single target 8/6CD death spells and wail 30/25CD is pathetic. I might as well stick to Wizard because of higher DCs to make sure the spell lands. To balance can we cut down wizard spell book by 1 per lvl to.... j/king but I think you get the picture.
• Extend becoming less appealing.
• Wow, lightning bolt lvl 3 12sp vs polar ray lvl 8 15sp. I don't see the balance here. Lightning bolt will be good for low lvls till polar ray is gotten, then never needed again. As for firewall(lvl4) vs Incendiary cloud(lvl8), Firewall 35SP 2d6+20 and +2d6 vs undead for 30 secs compared to Incendiary cloud 45 SP 2d4+20 with chance to blind target for 30 secs(and chance for mob to run all over the place after being blinded + held) and no one likes trying to see through the cloud to melee. Still have no reason to take Incendiary cloud which does less damage and costs 10sp more yet only a 4 spell level difference. Shouldn't it be 4sp difference only, though I still wouldn't use Incendiary cloud.

[steelblueskies]

really makes one wonder if you guys have actually tried playtesting these changes in varied content levels.

ice storm was not as useful as wall of fire precisely because it could not be extended comparably, and granted a save as well as lacking double damage to an entire class of monsters. otherwise it was about as efficient. hell even without the double damage for undead, i'd bet my car that if you copied firewall, removed the undead double damage and changed its element( ie create lightning wall, acid wall, searing cold wall) they'd get used like crazy too, frequently more than wall of fire. and with quite a few casters filling their limited slots with more then one variant of wall of XXXX. it was efficient. a perfect example of too poweful but perfectly efficient, and the power problem wasn't due to the spell. it was the mobs.

the big problem in practice is mob ai is "dumb stick"- what they do is stand there, or run through such an effect as wall of fire, instead of attempting to go around it, or attack at range. as a result the problem is not the spell but the ai and players use of the two together tactically. yet one cannot modify the ai too much without causing performance issues on the servers runing thousands of copies of the code at once soo...

i suppose coupling the enhancement changes to elemental lines would compensate for the damage change to wall, but adding in a significant cost change is two steps to fix it instead of one, which seems one too far when also adding a save, and a cooldown.

which brings me around to the sp regen, if it won't eventually get one back to being able to cast ones highest level spell then it's predominantly a low level buff, to be ignored later as useless.

adding to this thinking, if a "pew pew" singletarget spam isn't effective in most places now(look at archmage sla force spells for example) then making a shift in that direction will not be a significant improvement.

what you need to do is think like this: if melee had say endurance and could only attack so many times irregardless of attack results, how would one balance that if endurance did not regenerate?

now if the melee can and/or should not be expected to be able to take hits ?

that is what this sounds like, simply replacing melee with caster.

additionally you throw in a desire for more diversity. i assume then that we will not be capped at 5 spells per level prepared then? otherwise diversity is not a goal to shoot for in this fashion. needing dozens of variations for effectiveness( an exaggeration, but one that keeps with the tone of your post) is foolhardy with such an artificial limitation.

you mentioned pnp 3.5 roots. the ai fix would address those roots, as a dm/gm would control the mobs. changing a spell like wof does not.
you spoke of mages going from weak to incredibly powerful, and have instead spoken to turning them into repeating crossbows.
as it stands one melees, then casts+melees, then casts, then cc's and casts, then just cc's (epic). because damage is insufficient without scaling for 1 player in some content, much less elite. we end up weak, having peaked in the mid teens.

the buff to damage from spells for helpless mobs will help even that vs melee, as will mob health changes to an extent. at least for higher tier content.
still not overpowering a melee class in the same situation. pots, and other healing effects are a stand in for endurnce in the earlier example. they get it for plat, readily, and for free from their healers initial sp pool each shrine.
we don't. cash, real money potions, and a small number of clicky effects, or a massive farm/grind/pray at ah.

i mean for the love of pete. 12 sp regen when out? removing mantle from certain raidbosses so lowlevel spells can affect them, okay fine so far, now consider their saves without a metamagic like heighten or somesuch. how are you going to afford the spell and heighten, much less empower and or maximize? you do realize how much a joke that sounds?

fear me i am a level 20 wizard archmage, i shall nuke you until half your friends are almost(33%from perfect health) dead, or incapacitated so the army i brought can slay them mercilessly, and then, having wearied myself, i shall wait for 12 seconds to cast 20-50 points of damage you may likely save against???

this is the problem with pitting dumb enemies versus equivalently powerful but better equipped significantly smarter opponents with the ability to coordinate. you will never achieve true balance, merely shift where the power lies, and this seems a move away from powerful.

but who knows, could turn out in workable fashion. call this a first look first response. after all it might not be too many devs without enough coordination on separate tasks, and if eladrin is right, we can always resort to tensers and convince mobs to help us find a nice pocket to hide in, until the group figures out whats what and stops brining us along.

actually, i think i know what it'd take to buy these changes. you dev's hop on your test server, and make a video running a few quests with these changes in place, and A: succeed B: still like the changes afterward. and i mean shavarath+epic+sands+something low level like irestone.

[Frebby]

So your basically taking how arcanes currently work, and trying to COMPLETELY change how they work in one patch?

I hope you've done your research well turbine.

The metas are what make spells expensive, changing the base cost a bit wont help if you like to actually hurt things (I.e. using metas...).

[Noelemahc]

Sorcerers made their place in the arcane role by being a little different than Wizards. Wizards had more spells to cast, while Sorcerers had less spells they could cast more often. Now Sorcerer cool downs are only slightly less than Wizard, taking away the main reason to play a Sorcerer to begin with.

Wizard has spell slots, ability to change spells at will (shrine obviously), and higher dcs. Sorcerer has more sp, cast twice as fast, and half cool downs. Now Sorcerers have more sp, faster casting... and that's it. Pots make up the sp difference, and Quicken makes up for the casting speed on a Wizard. Sorcerers lost the one thing that made them unique. There is now no reason to play a Sorcerer at all. Savants or not (which are very disappointing to be honest), I will just TR my Sorcerer to a Wizard and call it a game.

Cool down on the new power word still makes it not worth the spell slot. 4 minutes is way too long. Honestly it should be 1 minute, even 2 minutes is more reasonable. Duration on AoE spells being locked in to 30 seconds and not being allowed to work with Extend is a very poor overhaul. The whole point of Extend is that it is supposed to work on all spells that last greater than an instant, and less than permanent. Extend should work with every spell that falls in that category no matter what. Extend Spell is trivialized now and is no longer worth taking. Using it for one spell (Haste) is not efficient.

Elemental enhancement lines are also way too expensive now. Arcanes were already struggling with APs before (well really, who isn't). But now it costs 50% more aps just to spec the way you currently are now, which I don't think should be the case. I like splitting up the lines, I think it's a great idea. And adding more tiers is also great. However, it should cost the same ap to spec the way you currently are now, and more if you want to go beyond that 40% damage and 9% crit/2.25 multiplier.

Arcane casters were in desperate need of an overhaul to make them viable in end game. Their role was dumbed down to haste bot and mass hold bot, because they were not efficient enough at anything else. Now their spells that do matter are getting nerfed, enhancement lines are getting nerfed, and mob saves are getting increased. Arcanes with 40+ dc, which is not easily obtained unless you are completely raid/epic geared out and/or a multiple time TR, were barely landing spells now as it was.

Arcanes can and will run out of gas throwing out magic damage very fast, so they will never replace a melee dps (which in my opinion is very, very terrible game balance). So with crowd control taken out of the equation, and Arcane dps still being insignificant, what is there left for an Arcane to do other than haste bot (which will be done without extend now since it is a useless feat)? Again Bards do it better, and have better crowd control (you can't compete with Fascinate dcs in the 80s).

I was really hoping this update would give casters the boost they so desperately needed. Instead the more info I see being released, the more disappointed I get. Instead of a boost, casters are getting nerfed now more than ever and getting the biggest kick in the balls they've ever gotten.

[Spiteful]

Right, so your response to imbalanced spell comparison is to make sweeping, massive changes in spell cost and effects, thus replacing the current small set of overused spells for another. If you're making changes this drastic, either the chap that first came up with the numbers needs sending back to preschool, or the chap that suggested these needs to.
Either way, these changes lack subtlety, elegance, or imagination. Lets face it, most of this comes down to the overuse of firewall. Instead of tossing big numbers around, how about fixing the AI so they don't simply ignore it's existence? Firewall would become a blocking and herding spell rather than the exercise in AI exploitation it is at the moment.
Failing that, we could just leap straight to where this game is clearly headed and strip everything down to two classes; The hold down W and right mouse button fighters, and the red-bar watching healers that follow ten paces behind like women in a semi-civilised culture. It will save me the six months of umming and ahing before I finally give in, delete my account and go find another game to play.

[Ziindarax]

So you've talked about changes to the arcane class spells.... what about the Divine casters? Will some of their spells be affected by the spell pass, or is it only the arcane casters that are having their spells changed?

Hey folks! As you’ve probably have already heard we have a major spell pass coming down the pipe. The full details will be released soon but we figured we’d cover some general cases and some the reasoning for the changes ahead of the Lamannia preview. Today we’ll look at the changes coming to spell cost ratios, CC spells, death effects, and spell points… here we go!

SPELL COST TO EFFECT RATIOS CHANGES:

For years now the cost of all spells have been strictly driven by this formula:

Base Spell cost = 5 SP + (spell level X 5).

IE: a level 1 spell is 10 sp, while a level 9 spell is 50 sp, and so forth.

While we got by with this, it didn’t exactly always make for the most diverse spell choices for those people who crunched the numbers to determine what to use. When you looked at the math, folks get very attached to certain spells, namely “wall of fire” for very logical reasons. This is a shame considering the art/dev resources devoted to the creation of so many other spells also floating in the system.

On another note, it has become a noticeable point that arcane casters are a rather difficult class to get into. The Classic 3.5 D&D concept of starting weak then gain cosmic power. While loyal to our roots we felt that perhaps the current learning curve is a bit too harsh, and we’re looking at making it an easier class role to enter for new players.

So we’re mixing things up! The spell pass was mostly focused on “damage” spells, but does extends into debuffs and other areas to a degree. We’re changing the costs and what spells do and we’ve changed far too much for me to cover it in just this post but I’m going to give you a list of examples to give you an idea of where we’re going…

Let’s take some main stream spells with a few “less popular” spells and see what you think….

Old way:

1. Burning Hands ( 10 SP)
2. Melf’s Acid Arrow ( 15 SP)
3. Scorching Ray ( 15 SP)
4. Lightning Bolt ( 20 SP)
5. Wall of fire ( 25 SP)
6. Delayed blast fire ball (40 sp)
7. Incendiary cloud: ( 45 SP)
8. Polar Ray (45 SP)

Now let’s change that too…

1. Burning Hands (down to 4 SP – other stats unchanged)

2. Melf’s Acid Arrow (down to 6 SP – Damage updated to 2d4 + 1 per caster level, duration locked to 12 seconds, now has double range, can no longer be enlarged or extended, ray targeting has been improved)

3. Scorching Ray (down to 6 SP – now has double range, can no longer be enlarged, ray targeting has been improved.)

4. Lightning Bolt (down to 12 SP – now has double range and 50% change to hit each target twice (back stroke!) – targets get an additional save against the back stroke). Can no longer be enlarged.

5. Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)

6. Delayed blast fire ball: (25 SP/12 sp for trap version): trap cool down increased to 15 seconds, 10 seconds for sorcerers

7. Incendiary cloud (Cost remains 45 SP – Now does 2d4 + 1 per caster level in fire damage, no save. Duration locked to 30 seconds. Blind effect (previously no save) now has a reflex save. Can no longer be extended)


8. Polar Ray (Cost down to 15 SP, range doubled, can no longer be enlarged, ray targeting has been improved.)



So there is a lot going on here, and this is only a fraction of the changes going in to the spell pass. Essentially the cost of spells are being weighted now much more on their performance, method of engagement and the number of targets they effect rather than the old level-based formula.


• Low level spells that cap early (like burning hands) got discounted greatly.

• Drop and kite AOE dots such as wall of fire are now being treated as a more expensive/powerful attack form as we feel they really should be compared to other damage spells.

• Instant AOE spells got discounted some, to make them more appealing compared to waiting on kiting monsters through aoe dots.

• Single target damage and bolts are getting much cheaper, single target dots are getting cheaper and getting their effectiveness boosted.

• “Trap” type spells got really cheap to hopefully make them with consideration given the prep time they take, but had their cool downs increased to make them not a strict replacement for other in combat AOEs.

WHAT ABOUT CC?

Yeah okie, we mucked around with CC a little, and it goes into debuffs some… Here are a few high lights.

• Largely CC costs remained the same

• HD/HP caps we’re removed from most effects (yeah, I guess I should talk about death effects now, but oh, sleep works now!)

• Many debuffs had their cost reduced, and some had carrier debuffs added to them that temporarily reduced will saves regardless if the target saved against the original debuff.

Examples:

Crushing Depair: Cost reduced to 20 SP, now applies a weakn will effect for 15 seconds regardless of saving throw from original effect (will -5).

Touch of Idocy: Cost reduced to 5 SP, Now also weaks foes will save for -5 for 15 seconds regardless of save.

The notion is saving many of our under used debuffs and allow casters to punch harder targets/hit more reliably and get longer effect out of effects with quick re-occurring saves. That’s is if their willing to use a spell slot, and the spell points.


Full details to come, moving on for now…

DEATH EFFECTS:

Chaaanngggeeee….

• Costs remained the same.

• We’re pulling the death wards off epic and many pieces of content that had death proof monsters. There have been adjustments to “vorpal” weapons and the like that made us more comfortable with this change. Eladrin posted on these elsewhere if you’re looking for the sneak preview of that…

• Death spells had their cool downs increased, just a little on single target spells, a bit on AOEs. Single target spells are typically on a 8 second cool down, 6 seconds for sorcerers while AOE death effects are typically 30/25 respectively.

• Death spell on save damage was increased, so a blue hexagon won’t be a total waste of spell points, yet there will be more agro. We realize this and currently approve. Attempting to death a monster is a hate-able offense.

• There are some old death spells that got a new look and now their back in town:

Circle of Death: Now effects all targets regardless of Hit dice; Has been updated as follows:

Rains dark energy into an area. Living Creatures are subject to a death effect; getting a reflex save and then a fortitute save to avoid death. Targets who succeed against the reflex save suffer no ill effect, but creatures who success against the fortitute save will still lose 1d4 energy levels.

Power word: Kill!

Upper hit point cap removed except in PVP. Kills, no save, but spell resistance applies.
240 second cool down for wizards, 210 second cool down for sorcerors

SPELL POINT REGEN – Echoes of Power:

We’ll be introducing a limited form of spell point regen for players who have “magical training” (as in the feat). This is to avoid a true “out of gas” situation for our casters. The concept is that when a caster drops below a certain spell point threshold a spell point regen effect known as “echoes of power” applies itself until the caster reaches that threshold again. The goal is to allow low level players continue to cast level 1 spells at a diminished rate when their “out of gas” while high level players will be able to continue to use their PRE-s with the meta magics they normally require for high level play.

Currently in testing… these values are examples mind you…

• Echoes of power will appear when a player drops below 12 SP.
• Echoes of power will allow the player to regenerate at a rate of 4 SP every 6 seconds.
• Echoes of power will remove itself once a player reaches 12 SP or greater.



ETERNAL WANDS:

Not going to go into details here yet but eternals wands got a pass that increased their recharge regeneration rate and added desirable caster mutations.

Much more to come. That’s all for now folks, but be sure to participate in the Lamannia preview once it’s available to try out the changes!

-Torc
DDO Game Systems

[Trillea]

I have to say this: WHAT WERE YOU GUYS THINKING??

The drops to SP are good, getting rid of the hit dice/HP caps was good too, upping the damage of lower level spells is OK; but adding saves to iconic spells such as wall of fire, giving instadeath COMPLETELY ridiculous cooldowns (no spell should have more than a 6 sec cooldown - 1 round) is - and I hate to say this - completely friggin insane.

Changing the "start weak then gain godlike power" to "start weak end weak" is dumb, wizards and sorcerers are supposed to be the scariest ************* on the plane (or whatever plane they choose to be on). Diverging from this is going to tick off your playerbase beyond what you are expecting.

Do yourselves a favor and give this a LONG preview on Lamannia, (long enough to get 3 or 4 rounds of feedback) listen to your players, make changes as suggested, and find a good balance point. As it is this is an abomination unto Gygax.

[Thar]

I think this now makes wall of fire the most times nerfed thing in the game!

Did spike growth get changed?

Wall of fire and Rangers might be tied now for most nerf'd.

When was the last time you saw a ranger in a high level raid.

[ravengerpl]

5. Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)

You have be kidding me.
Are you bored? Fix this instead making some stupid ideas.

[Sweyn]

Sorcerers made their place in the arcane role by being a little different than Wizards. Wizards had more spells to cast, while Sorcerers had less spells they could cast more often. Now Sorcerer cool downs are only slightly less than Wizard, taking away the main reason to play a Sorcerer to begin with.

Wizard has spell slots, ability to change spells at will (shrine obviously), and higher dcs. Sorcerer has more sp, cast twice as fast, and half cool downs. Now Sorcerers have more sp, faster casting... and that's it. Pots make up the sp difference, and Quicken makes up for the casting speed on a Wizard. Sorcerers lost the one thing that made them unique. There is now no reason to play a Sorcerer at all. Savants or not (which are very disappointing to be honest), I will just TR my Sorcerer to a Wizard and call it a game.

Bingo, the one thing that i loved about my sorc, and couldn't stand when i tr'd into a wizard, was the difference in cooldowns. Now it's a joke.

[donfilibuster]

I'd have liked to have seen all damage spells scale with caster level (e.g. Ice Storm!). It's a good way to scale
damage output with level without having to nerf feats.

Afaik the ability to bypass a spell cap is an epic feat, otherwise you are just effectively making a higher level spell.
(e.g. fireball vs. delayed blast fireball).

You're doing it wrong.

this. is correct.
i was also a on-spot firewaller and used to set multiples on top until things became white hot.
until i was pointed out to spread them and kite tru them.
you can try this in the cove, as opposed to dancing the goblin and leaving them to burn.
you can also try with Sinvala, a small bonfire on a spot not as good as a wide ring of fws spread around.

As it reads TO ME now, all single target removal spells got a nerf, all commonly used AOE duration spells got changed (some better some not), extend meta got hit with some of it's spells being weakened, and casters are being forced to basically rechoose all of their spells.

If someone can add some more light to this it would be appriciated.

Yes, all three easy tactics are now gone, not just one, all three: persistent area, instakill, autocrit cc.
Good or bad it paves the way for direct damage spells and melee damage where they were inneffective.

I mean its great for the low lev spells costing less but seriously past a certain level you don't even use half those spells
and Archmages get them cheap anyway..

and leave the cooldowns alone too

Indeed some people note the 'useless spells' are now 'cheaper useless spells', but not all spells are like that.
A few got actually usable, circle of death, sleep, etc. Gotta wait and see the final version.

And while the tiers are correct in that you are not supposed to use lower lv spells in PnP as well, it's generally that you have a wider selection of higher level spells available to replace them.
In DDO the small spell selection takes out a lot of the wizard's power so making the spells usable at higher levels should help that a bit.

Changing the "start weak then gain godlike power" to "start weak end weak" is dumb, wizards and sorcerers are supposed to be the scariest ************* on the plane (or whatever plane they choose to be on). Diverging from this is going to tick off your playerbase beyond what you are expecting.

This is true, the arcanes are kind of feared even at low levels. May be ubiquitous on high magic worlds but still a danger.

[Raiderone]

Well when Ice Storm was changed no extend was available. So it was kinda the writing on the WALL. ie no extend coming for FW. I wonder which spell is better now?
But what's good for the goose is good for the gandor.

Maybe drop AOE death cool downs a little, but if used Single Death spells also go into cooldown (AOE's cooldown). And vice versa. So if single death spell used an AOE death spell would go into a 8 sec or 6 sec cooldown too.

It makes sense to nerf or semi limit FW with Druids coming (hopefully).

Yah looks like I'll be dropping Extend. Good go to the Bards for buffs! BYOH... H stands for HASTE!

[Aurora1979]

Indeed some people note the 'useless spells' are now 'cheaper useless spells', but not all spells are like that.
A few got actually usable, circle of death, sleep, etc. Gotta wait and see the final version.

Am i wrong in thinking that sleep is just like hypno? Stops mobs moving, fighting etc, is removed when they are attacked.

So, in your example, at least 1 of the now useful spells is replicating what another, already useful spell, does.

I do agree that its worth holding out an seeing the finished effort.... Ive never complained about a nerf in almost 3 yrs of playing but this updates getting up my nose a bit.