Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

[Skyeson]

Will archmage slas get reviewed? I imagine they are quite out of touch given the sweeping changes.

[Barium]

I have read this entire thread and am within the school of thought that changes are often resisted but overall are for the greater good. Perhaps it is time for every player to realize a few distressing and quite probably upsetting truths. First on the list, the cooldowns. Look, when they put content into the game that says "VERY LONG" that's how they intended it to be played. Honestly, slamming through a quest, at level, in 20 mins. when its very design was to take an hour is NOT how gaming was meant to be. I think it is wonderful for those that can and do blaze through a quest and get that XP/sec ratio way up there. It's wonderful for you. For those around you, like myself, I actually login to have fun and immerse in content and comaraderie. This GAME isn't supposed to feel like a JOB. Second is the pure cold-to-the-bone fact that we own none of this. Turbine and its associates make decisions based on what they want. Not exactly always aligned with what we want. This is true with most political, religious, and other viewpoints in life, so why not our online gaming world as well.
With that said, I am not thrilled with alot of these changes. I've seen people talking of not carrying extend as a feat (remember that when you're throwing haste every 2min, doubling your sp cost), but I doubt these players would last long in party-based, teamwork rich environments. With every update/content addition there comes a thread of complaints. The only effective thread I've seen thus far was the dowsing rod fiasco. Who cares? It isn't really YOUR money. To quote someone from earlier, "I'm not paying to change spells around"... AND? What are you going to do with your plat otherwise? These types of complaints have always fallen on deaf ears at Turbine.
The most recent example being the pally intimidate class skill change. Pallys were not given a free LR. They were not allowed to modify points etc. without one. If you want to be part of the "new" dynamic you'll either change, or move on. The threat of leaving the game with your massive $10-$100 contribution every month is hardly a drop in the bucket. I'd imagine the store alone makes that figure per minute at peak times. Little risk involved to rid themselves of malcontents and free up a bit of server space for a more favorable player.
Now we only need to decide for ourselves what it is exactly we plan to do. Stay or go. I really dislike changes as much as the next person, but they are what they are. For better or worse.

[The_Phenx]

Please use the return button and put paragraphs in occasionally...my eyes!!!

[rwargson]

Wow. What a thread. Sort of typical of threads about changes in an MMO.

But yeah, it's almost as if D&D's spell system has some fundamental flaws that are magnified when the game is translated into an MMORPG...

Maybe one day we'll have a 4E mmo... and then the "4e is like WoW lollll1!111" comments can come full circle.

[Elucidus]

or comments like "4E is ****"....because it is, though it is made for a video game.

Paizo's Pathfinder system would be fun to play like DDO.

[auximenes]

Maybe one day we'll have a 4E mmo... and then the "4e is like WoW lollll1!111" comments can come full circle.

You've not read D&D 4.0 have you? D&D 4.0 = Computer game converted to pencil-and-paper game.

[Gleep_Wurp]

i still will not use lame spells.i will shelf my caster if need be just like my tr'ed cleric.

[rwargson]

You've not read D&D 4.0 have you? D&D 4.0 = Computer game converted to pencil-and-paper game.

lol wut. You realize that influence does and always has run both ways, right? But it's cool, I've heard the "it's a videogame!111" stuff before. If you wanted to try to argue your case, I can get some popcorn.

Personally I think spells-per-day is utter garbage and I'm glad they're slowly moving away from that. If it wasn't backed by D&D's big name, I doubt anyone would ever think it's a good, fun system for a game. I wonder how many of 3.x's loudest defenders have played anything else. Myself, I like 4E's 'encounter' powers, so maybe we'll see more of that. That'd be swell. Of course, I guess I'm not really target market for DDO, what with my dislike of nearly all of D&D's rules. I just like instanced dungeons with traps and ****, where xp isn't based on how many things you kill, so I keep coming back.

[auximenes]

lol wut. You realize that influence does and always has run both ways, right? But it's cool, I've heard the "it's a videogame!111" stuff before. If you wanted to try to argue your case, I can get some popcorn.

I wasn't trying to start an argument. I commented on D&D 4.0 being very-much like a generic MMO. I also implied that I'm not a fan of 4.0 for that reason. What's the problem?

[PestWulf]

I know they mentioned changing the graphics on Stoneskin and Camo, presumably so you don't have to walk around with your character not showing the cool eqiup. you've gotten.

Though frankly, you should severely beat whoever made the mis-matched armor models. My Pirate plate armor has no boot on one foot....whoever the Picasso loving graphic designer is needs.....gah! nevermind. getting off topic.

What I'm wanting to say is that if you want to make some spells more usable, then for the love of all that's holy, do something about spells like Hypnotic Pattern, Obscuring Mist, etc. It doesn't matter how good they are or how good you make them, people will just refuse to sit there and watch that on their screen.

Make them lighter, make them a ring on the ground...something other than what is currently used and they may see some action.

I'm pretty happy with a lot of the other changes though and I think it's a good direction for the game. I do also wonder about the "spell like abilities" though especially for the archmage.

For instance, after this re-balance of spells, I can cast Cyclonic Blast for 15 spell points. Or I can permanently sacrifice 125 spell points to make it a spell like ability, after devoting two feats and a lot of enhancement points to be able to cast it for 15 spell points.

The spell like abilities have offered a cost reduction, use of metas without cost increase and freeing up spell slots. They were originally made with that in mind. This re-balance pretty much discards one of those perks. You still get something for going that route, but it would be nice to see some adjustment made to compensate for the re-balance.

It's not horrible if you don't, but it would be nice to keep the same benefit ratio after the re-balance as before.

[Jaid314]

Personally I think spells-per-day is utter garbage and I'm glad they're slowly moving away from that. If it wasn't backed by D&D's big name, I doubt anyone would ever think it's a good, fun system for a game. I wonder how many of 3.x's loudest defenders have played anything else. Myself, I like 4E's 'encounter' powers, so maybe we'll see more of that. That'd be swell. Of course, I guess I'm not really target market for DDO, what with my dislike of nearly all of D&D's rules. I just like instanced dungeons with traps and ****, where xp isn't based on how many things you kill, so I keep coming back.

meh. 4e is not completely without good ideas (encounter powers are actually not bad, for example), but it has far too many downright bad ideas for a pen and paper game to be something i'd particularly want to play.

a better idea would be to gut 4e, take the few good ideas, and use them elsewhere... i'd rather not have my classes balanced by virtue of the fact that class A deals X damage with knockdown, while class B deals X-2 damage with immobilise, and class C deals X +1 with no status effect at all. balance via making everything a clone of each other is just boring.

i'm much happier with 3.x (which is also not without it's problems), and i'm glad the developers don't seem to really be moving towards 4e at all.

as far as the spell pass, well, it's gonna be weird... not sure it'll have the desired effect yet. only time will tell :P

[rwargson]

meh. 4e is not completely without good ideas (encounter powers are actually not bad, for example), but it has far too many downright bad ideas for a pen and paper game to be something i'd particularly want to play.

a better idea would be to gut 4e, take the few good ideas, and use them elsewhere... i'd rather not have my classes balanced by virtue of the fact that class A deals X damage with knockdown, while class B deals X-2 damage with immobilise, and class C deals X +1 with no status effect at all. balance via making everything a clone of each other is just boring.

i'm much happier with 3.x (which is also not without it's problems), and i'm glad the developers don't seem to really be moving towards 4e at all.

as far as the spell pass, well, it's gonna be weird... not sure it'll have the desired effect yet. only time will tell :P

I don't strongly disagree with any of this. I don't care for 3.x much, but I admit to slightly irrational hate-on for uses-per-day, so there is that coloring my views. In comparison, I really, really like "per encounter" powers. Also in my personal tabletop gaming I've moved away from D&D and class-based combat-focused stuff, so maybe I don't really have a horse in this race at all. I just want to play a wizard who throws fireballs at people until they stop moving, and that's not a thing you can do in 3.x very long.

[donfilibuster]

I just want to play a wizard who throws fireballs at people until they stop moving, and that's not a thing you can do in 3.x very long.

Because the mob with torches and pitchforks may want a talk with you.

[Espoire]

i still will not use lame spells.

Well, I think the whole point of reducing the spell point costs by 60% plus, increasing damage, giving certain spells double strike chance, making spells that offer a save reduce that save (even if the foe makes it) and so on is to make the "lame spells" into good spells. I think their hope is that every spell will shine in some builds and quests.

[joneb1999]

Because the mob with torches and pitchforks may want a talk with you.

Not if they are ashes on the ground with a little puff of smoke rising. lol

[Engar1]

WHY NOT ADD TO SPELL RESIST INSTEAD OF SAVES?

I posted in the monk thread, because saves vs. SF is the same issue there. I could post in the fighter thread as well, or barb thread even. Instead of boosting saves, why not add to spell resistance? It does a number of things that seem in line with the goals while eliminating several drawbacks.

Adding to spen instead of saves leaves SF, SB and most spells at 'reasonable' levels (casting two or three debuffers seems unreasonable and dispiriting to me for casters and a ridiculous expectation for melee to spec anything which depends on a caster debuff to land). Increasing spen while simultaneously introducing the elf enhancements to spen will migrate some casters (mostly wizards) to the elven race (a rarely used and unattractive race despite being traditionally prevalent as wizards in DnD). Many mobs and especially those boasting near immunity to CC and magic now resist spells more often or near always (drow). Existing builds or new first lives now need tweaking (up spell pen) to be viable, but are not left discouraged by insurmountable DC demands.

[Elucidus]

lol wut. You realize that influence does and always has run both ways, right? But it's cool, I've heard the "it's a videogame!111" stuff before. If you wanted to try to argue your case, I can get some popcorn.

Personally I think spells-per-day is utter garbage and I'm glad they're slowly moving away from that. If it wasn't backed by D&D's big name, I doubt anyone would ever think it's a good, fun system for a game. I wonder how many of 3.x's loudest defenders have played anything else. Myself, I like 4E's 'encounter' powers, so maybe we'll see more of that. That'd be swell. Of course, I guess I'm not really target market for DDO, what with my dislike of nearly all of D&D's rules. I just like instanced dungeons with traps and ****, where xp isn't based on how many things you kill, so I keep coming back.

I have to say I agree with Jaid, but also your later post. Encounter powers do have their charm, 4E has its good qualities. I think Pathinder stole a lot of those, but only those that were easy to implement. Personally I always preferred Spell points or Power Points like Psions use in 3.5.

Also I DM'd a 4E game for about 8-9 months, each session I liked it less and less. I wanted to like it i really did. but Jaid really put it out there, every class with just about the same power at each level, the only really differences were description. I do not agree with that. I wonder if there is a way to add encounter abilities to 3.5?

WHY NOT ADD TO SPELL RESIST INSTEAD OF SAVES?

I posted in the monk thread, because saves vs. SF is the same issue there. I could post in the fighter thread as well, or barb thread even. Instead of boosting saves, why not add to spell resistance? It does a number of things that seem in line with the goals while eliminating several drawbacks.

Adding to spen instead of saves leaves SF, SB and most spells at 'reasonable' levels (casting two or three debuffers seems unreasonable and dispiriting to me for casters and a ridiculous expectation for melee to spec anything which depends on a caster debuff to land). Increasing spen while simultaneously introducing the elf enhancements to spen will migrate some casters (mostly wizards) to the elven race (a rarely used and unattractive race despite being traditionally prevalent as wizards in DnD). Many mobs and especially those boasting near immunity to CC and magic now resist spells more often or near always (drow). Existing builds or new first lives now need tweaking (up spell pen) to be viable, but are not left discouraged by insurmountable DC demands.

Most of a clerics damage spells ignore spell resistance, I can't attest to a mage as mine is only level 5. So raising spell penantration really doesn't change things for a lot of spells.

[Calebro]

I wonder if there is a way to add encounter abilities to 3.5?

For casters it's less of an issue, as they should be spreading their spells out across the day, in essence having a variable list of encounter powers, or a large list of daily powers.
There's also a way to add encounter powers to melee'ers that's supported by 3.x. It's called Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords.

[xandariant]

Hey folks!
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SPELL COST TO EFFECT RATIOS CHANGES:
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-Torc
DDO Game Systems

While you change many things and that will look awesome there are some thing that could be answered or changed in this thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...85#post3575685

Developers could answer some things in there.

[PwnHammer40K]

Just introduce a spell that summons a pie elemental (CR=CL*2) and I'll be happy. also we'll be one step closer to having the classic Gourmet class in game.