Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

[Lycurgus]

I have personally not ever used a greataxe on my caster...and i've been fine...you can solo most low level content with a pocket healer using your wands and spells...(wands for level 1 only) because the shrines are spaces that you should really have enough sp to make it if your doing your job correctly...as for in a party...greataxe no...haste melees makes melees happy melees kill things...you don't take unneeded damage and this also makes the healers happy...so fw is gimped a little bit oh well...since its mostly used for undead anyway..who don't have reflex saves this should be fine. You can still run through delera's in 8 mins with your fw...you just might have to cast a couple extra since its no longer doing double damage. anyway i just thought i'd point out that a greataxe doesn't do more damage then say a scorching ray if your built properly.

I dunno, I actually enjoy walking into epics, throwing hypno, maybe a web, a mass hold at the nearest group of mobs and breaking out the green steel great axe. No, it doesn't compare to melee damage, but it beats the heck out of standing in a corner pew pewing with SLAs or twiddling thumbs when out of mana. The healers are happy because I'm scroll reconning myself, and not taking damage outside of their mass heals, and the melee are happy because they always catch rage and haste when they're centered on the mob, right where I am.

[ycy1975]

What else can I say? Oh right, this is a good news, stopping me from paying more money for something that is not interesting to me. Good job.

Lets take a guess how many casters will leave this time? No matter I guess, as long as they are not pay-to-play players. It is too lag for now, getting some players off server maybe a good idea.

Maybe arcane will be more 'important' later on since they are harder to be found among server, hahahahahaha.

Healer shortage + Arcane shortage, ummmm sounds sweet.

[redgod]

Well at least my 6 past lives in wizzie and sorc will be great now that i am going to be a favored soul really hope it works on lamaland and you all change my mind but savant looks weak and this looks like a short bus answer to cry babie noobs who dont want to work for anything.

so how did you decide to leave 12 static sp regen did to many ftp players cry about learning to manage resources.

with sla's its unlimited casting why have a mana bar just put timers on and let it go that is the next step when they cry 12 is not enough right enjoy the slide down the slippery slope

[Aaxeyu]

AAXEYU IS MY NEW BEST FRIEND FOREVER!!!!!1!one!!!!1!!eleven!

Hehe. Happy to help.

[ycy1975]

Oh, and one more thing. I've seen mention of people kiting through firewalls. Why? Other than certain very specific situations, why are you not kiting IN your firewalls?

If you wanna keep distance from monsters you have to run away from monsters, that means you can only kite them through firewall.

If you stand still there, they will hit you, hard, even you have HF.

You wanna die or not?

[redgod]

If you wanna keep distance from monsters you have to run away from monsters, that means you can only kite them through firewall.

If you stand still there, they will hit you, hard, even you have HF.

You wanna die or not?

lol learn to heal or drink a pot or i know it a harsh idea stop building glass cannons and make a howitzer.

[Gleep_Wurp]

[QUOTE=Torc;3663808] While loyal to our roots we felt that perhaps the current learning curve is a bit too harsh, and we’re looking at making it an easier class role to enter for new players.

i guess my loyalty means nothing.its about the new player.

[xman26]

Increasing damage on some spells and lowering the SP cost on damage spells reeaaallllly screwed us over. Yup.

Bug fixes that are still around is a more valid point. Reducing the cost of melf's acid arrow, giving it a free built in enlarge, and increasing the damage per tick not so much. There is potential for more spells to be useful. Variety is good. We'll see reality when it hits Lamma, but I like some of the spell changes as listed.

Yes the damage has been increased SLIGHTLY, and it is slight, but with NO EXTEND and timers LOCKED at 30sec, you are DOING LESSSSS Damage over Time than BEFORE!! IE: WE ARE BEING SCREWED OVER IF YOU USE A WIZZY/SORC!!

[Aaxeyu]

Yes the damage has been increased SLIGHTLY, and it is slight, but with NO EXTEND and timers LOCKED at 30sec, you are DOING LESSSSS Damage over Time than BEFORE!! IE: WE ARE BEING SCREWED OVER IF YOU USE A WIZZY/SORC!!

Except the fact that sorcs can now outDPS barbs by using their FREE spells.

You really need to get some perspective.

[Sethasoigh]

except The Fact That Sorcs Can Now Outdps Barbs By Using Their Free Spells.

You Really Need To Get Some Perspective.

+1

[KreepyKritter]

I keep hearing people crying about how this isn't true to D&D's PnP roots... Fine. Why don't we take away all your SP, and only let you cast each of your prepped spells once per rest, or once per quest (really true to PnP).

Hell, while we're at it, let's go ahead and roll back to 2nd ed AD&D and take out all the meta-magic feats as well.

Or, since allegedly we're all adults here, why don't we take a look at how this might benefit the masses, instead of how it hurts the vocal minority of Oober-l33t gamerz and their S00p3r K3wL p0w3rz.

Free enlarge on a number of pretty nice low level nuker spells. Enhancements to the ray targetting code. Improved damage on a number of spells all around. A couple high level spells coming into their own as high damage spells. Double damage potential on some, improvements to debuffs. I see shout and greater shout getting a lot more use. I'm intrigued to see more specifics on a number of other spells.

No one wants to see all that though. Everyone just sees that wall of fire got the nerf bat, even though I've seen gaggles of players and devs complain about wall of fire being the arcane easy button that allows even the gimpiest n00b caster to solo just about any quest.

I recall not long ago TWF getting the nerf bat, and HUGE numbers of TWF players going into nerd-rages and threatening to leave, and spouting about how it was breaking the game and how their DPS was taking a hit so they weren't going to be able to breeze through elite quests any more... Y'know what? Elite should be DIFFICULT. Epic should be near impossible. However, I also notice no one complaining about deathward coming off trash-mobs in epic quests.

Y'know what... never mind. You guys win the intar-webs. I'll go back to playing my toons and I'll try really hard to remember to miss all those people who rage-quit over these changes.

[xman26]

I keep hearing people crying about how this isn't true to D&D's PnP roots... Fine. Why don't we take away all your SP, and only let you cast each of your prepped spells once per rest, or once per quest (really true to PnP).

Hell, while we're at it, let's go ahead and roll back to 2nd ed AD&D and take out all the meta-magic feats as well.

Or, since allegedly we're all adults here, why don't we take a look at how this might benefit the masses, instead of how it hurts the vocal minority of Oober-l33t gamerz and their S00p3r K3wL p0w3rz.

Free enlarge on a number of pretty nice low level nuker spells. Enhancements to the ray targetting code. Improved damage on a number of spells all around. A couple high level spells coming into their own as high damage spells. Double damage potential on some, improvements to debuffs. I see shout and greater shout getting a lot more use. I'm intrigued to see more specifics on a number of other spells.

No one wants to see all that though. Everyone just sees that wall of fire got the nerf bat, even though I've seen gaggles of players and devs complain about wall of fire being the arcane easy button that allows even the gimpiest n00b caster to solo just about any quest.

I recall not long ago TWF getting the nerf bat, and HUGE numbers of TWF players going into nerd-rages and threatening to leave, and spouting about how it was breaking the game and how their DPS was taking a hit so they weren't going to be able to breeze through elite quests any more... Y'know what? Elite should be DIFFICULT. Epic should be near impossible. However, I also notice no one complaining about deathward coming off trash-mobs in epic quests.

Y'know what... never mind. You guys win the intar-webs. I'll go back to playing my toons and I'll try really hard to remember to miss all those people who rage-quit over these changes.

In case you missed my first post, which it appears you did. I said

"Wanna nerf damage, ok, wanna make it more exspensive to cast, even dumber, but ok"

Its the removal of extended on all the DoTs that I and many others have a major issue with. If we can't extnded them, why the hell even have Extended metafeat in the game?

[KreepyKritter]

First, let me clarify that I did not miss your post.

Point of fact, I chose not to read your post. It was a conscious act because I wasn't actually responding to you.

Second... Clear this up for me...

5. Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save for half when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)

...

7. Incendiary cloud (Cost remains 45 SP – Now does 2d4 + 1 per caster level in fire damage, no save. Duration locked to 30 seconds. Blind effect (previously no save) now has a reflex save. Can no longer be extended)

This is where I get lost... Okay, so the timers got locked. Fine, gripe about extend getting nerf'd for these two spells (and Melf's). But, let's look at IC... Before, it was locked to 4d6 damage per tick. No more, no less. Period. Fixed.

Now, 2d4+1 per caster level, per tick... hmm... Level 8 spell... Hmmm... Did you do the math on that? I did... HMMMMM!!

Now lets look at Melf's... 2d4+1 per caster level, per tick... Now, that may not seem like much. But lets look at that as cast by a capped toon ... hmmmm!

So, potentially, you have an AoE, and a single target, DoT spell... Drop IC, drop cloudkill (currently 2d6 per tick), now start kiting mobs through your (Much larger AoE) clouds, plinking them with Melf's, and watch your numbers. You don't even have to DO anything except run in circles and sling Melf's and you're going to auto-pop 4d4+2 (per tick/per level) + 2d6, every two seconds. Line up acid fog as well, and now you're at ((4d4+2) + (4d6+1)) *6.

But maybe you still want your fire wall... Okay... Now we're looking at ((4d4+2) + (6d6+2)) * 6 and then you're still hitting for ((2d4+1) + (2d6+1)) *9 once your cloud effects go away... Run your numbers through that and then go back and respecc your wiz to take advantage of some new math.

Note that empower and maximize still function as well... So go back and add 150% to all those numbers.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

First, let me clarify that I did not miss your post.

Point of fact, I chose not to read your post. It was a conscious act because I wasn't actually responding to you.

Second... Clear this up for me...



This is where I get lost... Okay, so the timers got locked. Fine, gripe about extend getting nerf'd for these two spells (and Melf's). But, let's look at IC... Before, it was locked to 4d6 damage per tick. No more, no less. Period. Fixed.

Now, 2d4+1 per caster level, per tick... hmm... Level 8 spell... Hmmm... Did you do the math on that? I did... HMMMMM!!

Now lets look at Melf's... 2d4+1 per caster level, per tick... Now, that may not seem like much. But lets look at that as cast by a capped toon ... hmmmm!

So, potentially, you have an AoE, and a single target, DoT spell... Drop IC, drop cloudkill (currently 2d6 per tick), now start kiting mobs through your (Much larger AoE) clouds, plinking them with Melf's, and watch your numbers. You don't even have to DO anything except run in circles and sling Melf's and you're going to auto-pop 4d4+2 (per tick/per level) + 2d6, every two seconds. Line up acid fog as well, and now you're at ((4d4+2) + (4d6+1)) *6.

But maybe you still want your fire wall... Okay... Now we're looking at ((4d4+2) + (6d6+2)) * 6 and then you're still hitting for ((2d4+1) + (2d6+1)) *9 once your cloud effects go away... Run your numbers through that and then go back and respecc your wiz to take advantage of some new math.

Note that empower and maximize still function as well... So go back and add 150% to all those numbers.

While your general point still stands, ie. That you'll do more damage now than before.
You're forgetting that acid dots dont stack with acid dots, nor does fire dots stack with fire dots.
That is, you can only have either melfs or acid fog, + either firewall or ic.

It's still more damage than the current "just firewall", but not as obsene as it would be if it all stacked (would probably go over 1k aoe dps with dots)

[Lycurgus]

Drop IC, drop cloudkill (currently 2d6 per tick), now start kiting mobs through your (Much larger AoE) clouds, plinking them with Melf's....

And thus we witness the birth of a truly arcane archer....

[KreepyKritter]

So then we swap Acid Fog for Ice Storm.

Now we have them stuck in the AoE's longer, and also taking 5d3+15. At that point, stand in the middle with death aura on and drop them all like flies and forget about Melf's entirely. So Ck + IC + IS + DA and if you want to get really mean, Disco Ball the mess of them and start dropping Sunburst in the middle of the AoE.

Improved tactics equate to improved DPS which makes this less of a nerf to a single spell and more of a buff to the viability of the rest of the arcane spell book... it just forces people to think a little harder.

[KreepyKritter]

And thus we witness the birth of a truly arcane archer....

Arcane? No... profane? Yes.

[Zaodon]

Turbine,
after reading about the Update 9 spell changes, its pretty clear to me that you really didn't understand the needs of the players or the feedback we've given you over the years. Let me try to explain the problem with the proposed Update 9 spell changes, and then suggest how you can fix it.

The fundamental problem with spells in DDO is that they are based on PnP D&D balance, not MMORPG balance. In PnP D&D, there are only so many encounters per "day" (or rest period). This is written into the rules to be approximately 4-5 encounters, and of those encounters 1-2 should be "at level or above", and the rest should be "slightly below level", to pose the right challenge to the party.

The inherent flaw with using that system in DDO is that the "encounters per day" mechanism simply does not exist. In DDO, quests involve scores of combats, in real time, at level (or harder on hard/elite/epic), for extended periods of time. What this does is extend the entire combat system out over far more time than intended. When you stretch the combat system out, DPS (Damager Per Second) and the ability for any class to contribute to a fight rapidly skews from spell casting to melee. The reason is that melee is infinite, and works against only 1 real statistic - hit points. Vorpals/Banishers/Disruptors aside, melee's do not have a lot of variety in actual form of their attack - its melee damage. Their only real choices revolve around bypassing DR.

Arcane casters, however, do not have the ability to sustain DPS the same way melees can. In PnP, its ok, because encounters are fixed to 4-5. In other words, in PnP, casters can "blow their wad" and keep up or even out DPS the melees. But that is not true in DDO. The nature of DDO real time combat means spell casting cannot compete due to limited spell point pools. This is why casters have over-relied on spells like Wall of Fire. Its not because its a good spell, its because its mana-efficient, and there aren't many other choices.

Casters are not meant to play like melees. While melee attacks one "stat" of the monster (hit points), casters were meant to be able to wield an arsenal of spells which are capable of attacking 3 stats: Fortitude, Reflex, Will. The entire point of spellcasting is supposed to be versatility in magic. Dumb monster? Attack its will. Clumsy monster? Attack its reflex. Weak monster? Attack its Fortitude.

We expected that the "spell pass" of DDO would give casters more choices to play their proper role - that of the utilitarian. Yes, we all love raw power and 2000 damage Polar Rays. But if you try to make arcane casters into sustained DPS classes, they will naturally lose their role and their value.

To this end, it is not a good idea to reduce the effectiveness of some spells so that other spells "appear" more attractive. What you should have done, is give casters more options, not less. If Wall of Fire was so good, then you should have introduced Wall of Acid, Wall of Lightning, Wall of Ice and Wall of Force. Not nerfed Wall of Fire so Acid Arrow seems like its a better spell. Instead of making instant-kill spells like Wail of the Banshee utterly useless with long cooldowns, you should have given players other good, effective level 9 spells to compete for the spell slot, while making Wail's spellpoint cost a bit higher to compensate. But a long cooldown makes the spell useless. Never mind the 4 minute cooldown on Power Word:Kill which guarantees that no one will take that spell.

We're not asking for "uber DPS!!1!" Lower the damage of Wall of Fire, increase its spell point cost, do whatever you think you need if you think its too powerful. But we don't use it as a staple spell because its uber. We use it because we have no alternatives. I submit for you to try to replace Wall of Fire with a simple Fireball and see if you can complete the same quests you could before. Or even the new Lightning Bolt. What we want, more than anything else, is to be the masters of knowledge. We know what that monster is, we know what it is vulnerable to, and we have just the right spell to attack it. That is what makes casters, well, casters. Melee can swap to Holy, or Flaming, or Icy Burst, or Lightning Strike, or Vorpal, or Greater Bane, or whatever the situation calls for. Why can't arcane spell casters have exactly the same choices? We don't cast Wall of Fire because its the best choice. We cast it because its the ONLY choice. IMHO, you are not making the right choice with the spell pass if all you're doing is balancing. We don't need balancing. We need more valid options to choose between when facing different foes.

The effect of adding an arcane caster to a party should be to gain something you can't gain with another character choice. How does the new spell pass make us unique? Bards can haste, rage, displace, GH and sing, providing buffs to the party. Melee out DPS us. Healers are, of course, unique. So, where does this spell pass leave us? Swapping from Wall of Fire to Incendiary Cloud and annoying everyone? Saying "sorry, Wail is on cooldown, can't clear the portals" ?? Saying, "sorry about pulling agro, all I can do is cast DPS spells now and that steals agro." I don't feel the spell pass, as advertised thus far, is the right direction for DDO. Its moving casters more towards DPS/mindless button pressing, and less towards unique utility/capabilities that the party can't get any other way.

[Cartheron]

While your general point still stands, ie. That you'll do more damage now than before.
You're forgetting that acid dots dont stack with acid dots, nor does fire dots stack with fire dots.
That is, you can only have either melfs or acid fog, + either firewall or ic.

It's still more damage than the current "just firewall", but not as obsene as it would be if it all stacked (would probably go over 1k aoe dps with dots)

Currently this is not true, Ive been doing test of incidentary cloud in ADQ and both firewall and cloud ticked in the same time. I think melf+acid fog would work too.

[Aashrym]

Yes the damage has been increased SLIGHTLY, and it is slight, but with NO EXTEND and timers LOCKED at 30sec, you are DOING LESSSSS Damage over Time than BEFORE!! IE: WE ARE BEING SCREWED OVER IF YOU USE A WIZZY/SORC!!

We don't need more than 30 second firewalls. We can simply use the cheaper burst damage on top of DoT's rotated in with cheap SLA's.

This isn't a nerf to casters, it's a nerf to wall of fire, and one that was bound to happen.

Its the removal of extended on all the DoTs that I and many others have a major issue with. If we can't extnded them, why the hell even have Extended metafeat in the game?

For buffs, possibly for some CC spells. I don't think it's necessary to remove it from DoT's but I would expect those DoT durations to become shorter to compensate in the big damage/SP calculations any so it becomes moot if the goal is to balance damage per cost.