Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

[Trillea]

I've decided to test this out in real-life.

I ran into the hallway wall 100 times now, and not once did I think I took less damage than normal (each subsequent wall-run felt just as painful as the previous). So either I didn't roll a 20 any of the 100 times (if the wall's DC is that high), or whoever thought up the idea of giving WoF a reflex save needs to re-reflect on this.

[Requiro]

I must say that one more time: I like the changes. Made them in DnD style, and there will be no problem at all. In other words: don't make other WoWish MMO.

But my biggest concern is that this thread show us how many Arcane Casters in DDO are whiny, not patient and using only 2-3 spells from all available.

I don't know that there are so many uncreative Wizards around...

I hope that, these grumbling players are only 3-5% of all players in game, and rest are more creative...

Waiting for more info Torc

[Gratch]

I've decided to test this out in real-life.

I ran into the hallway wall 100 times now, and not once did I think I took less damage than normal (each subsequent wall-run felt just as painful as the previous). So either I didn't roll a 20 any of the 100 times (if the wall's DC is that high), or whoever thought up the idea of giving WoF a reflex save needs to re-reflect on this.

We have been withholding belief that somehow a reflex save works vs. many meter wide fireballs or columns of flame 90 meters wide from Firestorm/Flamestrike, but you don't think a reflexy type can tippy toe around a wall despite where it shows his icon? You people have a bunch of other spells to get to complaining about if you're into using real life comparisons.

[zalendar]

blah

[DelverRootnose]

Normal attacks from a weapon, not counting sneak attacks and other effects that aren't multiplied on crit (Holy, Pure Good, etc)
Light Mace, no improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 20

Heavy Pick, no improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 22

Scimitar, no improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 18-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 22

Khopesh, no improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 19-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 23

With improved crit...

Light Mace, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 21

Heavy Pick, and improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25

Scimitar, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 15-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25

Khopesh, and improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 17-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 27

With improved crit and Kensai III

Light Mace, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 18-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 22

Heavy Pick, and improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 18-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 28

Scimitar, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 14-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 26

Khopesh, and improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 16-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 29

Autocrit

Light Mace in autocrit = miss on 1, x2 on 2-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 38

Heavy Pick in autocrit = miss on 1, x4 on 2-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 76

Scimitar in autocrit = miss on 1, x2 on 2-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 38

Khopesh in autocrit = miss on 1, x3 on 2-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 57


With improved crit under the new "helpless" state

Light Mace, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 21 * 1.5 = 31.5

Heavy Pick, and improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25 * 1.5 = 37.5

Scimitar, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 15-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25 * 1.5 = 37.5

Khopesh, and improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 17-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 27 * 1.5 = 40.5

That's a big difference. Sneak attacks and non-bursting elemental damage getting the 1.5 multiplier will help to make up some of that difference, but the Khopesh is getting a switft kick in the jimmies while the Heavy Pick is getting disemboweled and quartered.

Take a look at elemental and alignment burst damage and you'll see something similar.

Heavy Pick alignment burst in current autocrit = 5d6 = 17.5 damage * 19 = 332.5 damage per 20 swings
Heavy Pick elemental burst in current autocrit = 3d10 = 16.5 damage * 19 = 313.5 damage per 20 swings

Heavy Pick alignment burst on new "helpless" target = 5d6 = 17.5 damage * 2 * 1.5 = 52.5 damage per 20 swings
Heavy Pick elemental burst in current autocrit = 3d10 = 16.5 damage * 2 * 1.5 = 49.5 damage per 20 swings

and don't forget all the effect based things that happen on autocrit like the dreamspitter amoung others that will not happen on auto crit.

[voodoogroves]

Oh noez!

Tehy haz taeken hour fier wallz aweigh! DOOOOOOOOOooooOOOOOooooOOOOOM!!!1!11!!!1!!!one!!!e leven!!!exclamationpoint!!111!

It saddens me that it will take a nerf of this size to force arcane casters to expand their bag of tricks to include tools of other shapes and sizes. It also saddens me that 9 spells were chosen as 'Examples', and everyone has already assumed that every other available spell is going to suck, in spite of the lack of evidence to confirm that assumption.

Seriously, look at the boost to single target nuking! Look at the CC potential! Look at the SP savings! Want to talk about a class being religated to nothing but buffing? Look at Bards. That's pretty much all they ever were, and we hear no complaints from that group, and their Buff role extends from lvl 1 straight up to end game and epic. How is this change (nerf) any different than the change (nerf) to TWF/Ranged/Glancing Blows? How many of you lot with full casters as your mains came out to chest thump and nerd-rage against those changes?

'This new thing is bad!'

Everyone has already assumed that the cap to the SP Regen mechanic is 12, even though Torc implicitly stated that those numbers were EXAMPLES only. No numbers for lvl 2-20 have been mentioned, and no one really seems to have picked up that this mechanic applies to ALL full caster classes (Those with magical training as a granted feat at lvl 1).

Cool your nerd rage already, and give it a chance. The real test isn't the teaser posts. The real test is Lamannia. I'm just sad that I don't have a primary caster to port over when the U9 release drops on the preview servers so I can voice an informed opinion.

Not everyone has the same issue. I'm not seeing strong arcane cc at all without an effective way to chain and target debuffs and cc.

Lamaland is the real test.

[Bladedge]

If you want PnP or as close as possible the WoF will hurt party members and the caster

I wanted friendly fire long time ago it never happen, the devs even mention why there is no friendly fire long ago.

and also the enemy would either run in fear.

WoF does not cause fear effect on enemies in PnP, but if it needed in DDO to keep them out of the wall, Iam for it.

Even better or run around it and then it would be totally usless.

That is the DDO AI problem, see above.

Please stop trying to use the PnP theory to be mad at the WoF change its just weak.

You the one that is weak for even saying 1)that Iam mad at the change which Iam not, I just don't like the way they went about it.
2) and name calling.

[PopeJual]

The lowbie regen is just a joke.

I actually like that part. It's infinite spell points when someone is in the "what the hell amd I doing here?" phase of play and it's unlimited Wings of Faith/Air Savant jump/Archmage SLA.

It's not enough to make anyone actually want to wait around for the spell points in order to take on a significant chunk of a quest with those "free" spell points, but it is enough that you can dump everything you have at a boss even if you end up completely dry and then get back your free/nearly free abilities to help you get to the next shrine.

[Calebro]

The ap point cost so far is where you break my back. Your basically saying I am going to lose a ton of my diversity and must play the game your way with 1 good tree and the rest lacking.

No one is saying that.
All you have to do is choose not to take a PrE on your Sorc, then you'll have all elements equal, just like you do now.

[Zzevel]

So your basically taking how arcanes currently work, and trying to COMPLETELY change how they work in one patch?

I hope you've done your research well turbine.

The metas are what make spells expensive, changing the base cost a bit wont help if you like to actually hurt things (I.e. using metas...).

Exactly, at least ypu could only apply the metas that affect the spell to the SP cost rather than a blanket affect for all spells weather or not the meta works with the spell...


What a bunch of **** is all I gotta say. between this ant the TWF changes the devs really are trying to ruin the game, you can tell most do not play or play to little to know whats going on.

[Jaid314]

No one is saying that.
All you have to do is choose not to take a PrE on your Sorc, then you'll have all elements equal, just like you do now.

err... no. he's referring to the AP costs for elemental damage lines. it will cost 19 for one element under the new update, whereas it costs 22 AP for two elements right now.

[Chidane]

I may have overreacted with my first post, I have always complained about never being asked to do anything but firewall that thing! Perhaps this is a change for the better.

[DelverRootnose]

Barbarian is specced for any damage. Or a fighter, rogue, paladin, ranger, battle bard, etc. And if you want 'ranged' damage, take Arcane Archer.

Edit: what I want to say is, that if I want 'direct single target damage' I can already take 1 bajilion existing builds. Arcanes is(was) interesting because of 'other' things. And other things are getting a nerfbat.

I wish I hadn't given all my +1s away. This is why arcanes are not going to get groups and this game is becomming hack and slash with a few limited nuking being done. No subtlty at all anymore.

[Irinis]

Longer cooldowns on death effects are not fun. Wail was a TON of fun. It used to be the one spell I really looked forward to getting on my caster just so I could go "wheeeee!" in vale and shroud. The sound effect and visual effect made it more fun than any other spell. Once every 30 seconds now? You're kidding right? Right?

Wail, finger, nuke, wail, finger, nuke... Now I might just not carry it anymore on a wiz/rog and tell people I'm not killing trash in part 1 shroud, I'm nuking portals and they can go kill their own trash, because I needed the spell slot for some useful debuff that's way less fun but I can cast over and over.

Everyone and their dog has those event scimis anyway right?

[DelverRootnose]

I LoLed







Seem to be the same, sleep makes them helpless so now may be better than hypno. It also causes them to lay down, which means thay have to get up - animation to react after damage may be longer than hypno.


I haven't read the whole thread but at first I thought - good; thinking more I really worry that this will make casters a whole let less useful. While damage apparently is gettiung a buff, it still isn't comparable to melee.

Even with all of these changes, mass hold is still an effective stategy, immobolive a group of mobs, do 50% more damage than otherwise is still the WIN button, it will just take longer and use more resources. In epics, my cleric barely uses cures except on boss fights, hopefully these changes will make them more challenging without making them impossible.

A lot of people referred to ToD-2 as being a potential problem with WoF nerf, any thought to Shroud-1? Might require 2 scouts to kill the mobs now.

Sleep and hypno wil be about as effective as facinate with a bunch of stupid great axe weilders running all over the place.

[Aashrym]

Sleep and hypno wil be about as effective as facinate with a bunch of stupid great axe weilders running all over the place.

I'm not sure about that. It's supposed to be a helpless state until attacked. That's a cheap and quick +50% damage bonus compared to hypno or fascinate if that is in the implementation.

If. I don't recall the last time I tried sleep. Maybe I'll go play with it a bit after work.

[voodoogroves]

Longer cooldowns on death effects are not fun. Wail was a TON of fun. It used to be the one spell I really looked forward to getting on my caster just so I could go "wheeeee!" in vale and shroud. The sound effect and visual effect made it more fun than any other spell. Once every 30 seconds now? You're kidding right? Right?

Wail, finger, nuke, wail, finger, nuke... Now I might just not carry it anymore on a wiz/rog and tell people I'm not killing trash in part 1 shroud, I'm nuking portals and they can go kill their own trash, because I needed the spell slot for some useful debuff that's way less fun but I can cast over and over.

Everyone and their dog has those event scimis anyway right?

Yep. I always carried portal beaters anyway.

This "Now I might just not carry it anymore" is the hidden cost or action efficiency and simple hot-bar planning. The things people use, gravitate towards keys. The things that are rarely used get placed on more extraneous bars.

If I have to debuff/CC all the time and there isn't a good mechanism to chain those together, I won't. I blast. If I have to wait a long time before casting that other spell, I'm not going to watch the timer, I'm going to blast. Especially if blasting is boosted.

Or really, depending on how the preview looks on Lamania, TR my wizard to a Bard. Then again half the bard songs are bugged right now.

[voodoogroves]

I'm not sure about that. It's supposed to be a helpless state until attacked. That's a cheap and quick +50% damage bonus compared to hypno or fascinate if that is in the implementation.

If. I don't recall the last time I tried sleep. Maybe I'll go play with it a bit after work.

I think his point was that they wouldn't stay down for long with glancing blows, etc.

[Torc]

Doesn't matter, cause no one will be using Lightning Bolt, as they're nerfing the base damage to 1d3 (as opposed to the prior 1d6)

I'm not sure what this post is based on but spell damage dice is not changing.

Traditionally in DDO Direct damage or "instant" damage spells use "loaded" dice, where we give you half the value and then roll the second half.

Example: Lightning bolt does a d6 per level, but actually roll 3+1d3 per die. So the average tends to be 5. This prevents you from rolling a ton of 1s and getting a crappy lightning bolt.

Now Dots typically roll true dice: 1d4 will really be a range of 1 - 4.

But anyhow, the base method of how we do spell damage dice isn't changing Been that way awhile.

[Aashrym]

I think his point was that they wouldn't stay down for long with glancing blows, etc.

Perhaps so. But if sleep gives us sleep and ignore or sleep and get +50% until a break on hit effect I can see sleep being useful as an actual bard area helpless effect spell. That's something we didn't have before. Sounds expensive to abuse.

I would be curious about changes to deep slumber too.