Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

[Slorgs]

Do we really need One Spell to rule them all?

From sorcerers/wizards get wall of fire until they retire, my bet is that the vast majority run out of level 4 components faster than any other, and that the vast majority of level 4 spells they cast is wall of fire, it's just that useful.

My sorc bought 1000 of each component type at level I and 2000 of level IV (I like to be prepared). I have never run out of any other spell level of component, ever, except for level IV. Even when I typically carry 2-3000 at a time, I have still had to buy from the ddo store mid raid when I run out.

Do you have any idea how many hens have had their hearts ripped out for fw? I'd be amazed if there was a chicken left in eberron.

[Gulnar13]

I think a reflex save is a much lesser nerf than improving the AI to move out of AoE spell effects

Oh yeah. They come out. They no longer are on flames. They come in. They burn. They go out... AUTO KITING!
Or even better. "Guys, there's a firewall! Stay away!". And here goes free passage for everyone...

[MrWizard]

did you guys just nerf enlarge...really?

so few of us know how secretly powerful this is and you nerf an unknown number of spells to enlarge?

there are like 5 people on each server that use it and you nerf it?

I gotta ask why?

[ArkoHighStar]

did you guys just nerf enlarge...really?

so few of us know how secretly powerful this is and you nerf an unknown number of spells to enlarge?

there are like 5 people on each server that use it and you nerf it?

I gotta ask why?

they basically made the spells enlarged already, so no need to have enlarge, enlarge did not get a nerf, everyone just got it as a free feat more or less

[BurningDownTheHouse]

did you guys just nerf enlarge...really?

so few of us know how secretly powerful this is and you nerf an unknown number of spells to enlarge?

there are like 5 people on each server that use it and you nerf it?

I gotta ask why?

Um, the spells that it doesn't affect anymore are auto enlarged already, where is the nerf?

Edit: Too late...

[crimsonknights2]

Hmmm ... I thought the OP's post was, in fact, supplying the "how" and "why" (regardless of your position on whether or not you agree).

The changes sound interesting. I agree with the effort to have casters, especially beyond mid high level, cast more than a handful of spells. My hope is that the metamagic feats are being given a re-think as well; perhaps a scaling mechanism as well.

I was particularly addressing the complaints being made, not they how and why they are making the changes, but the how and why those changes address the issues people have. You are correct in that it was a very informative post, thus my kudos.

(As far as my position or agreement with them, I remain neutral as I already stated I no longer play a wizard, I leave the opinions on the benefits or drawbacks to the current wizards/sorcs)

[Kriogen]

..
Tell me.. For what possible reason would any party take a sorc for now? Theres only one. They are element specced for that particular content.
...

Barbarian is specced for any damage. Or a fighter, rogue, paladin, ranger, battle bard, etc. And if you want 'ranged' damage, take Arcane Archer.

Edit: what I want to say is, that if I want 'direct single target damage' I can already take 1 bajilion existing builds. Arcanes is(was) interesting because of 'other' things. And other things are getting a nerfbat.

[Siskel]

Will Incendiary Cloud and Wall of Fire stack?

[joneb1999]

wow. the most used spells get nerfed big time, while little used spells get some boosts. Testing will determine if they become useful.

Why not just dump all spells and just have generic magic damage based on level. And a generic kill spell. And a generic buff spell.

Seems to me this change is making spells more similar to each other.

Hopefully LLama will prove me wrong.

Surely the comment you are making in the text I highlighted red would apply if only the fewer most used spells were of any benefit than all spells having benefit in their own way.

Look at the bigger picture.

[Theolin]

The more I think about this the more I think they think we finish quests too fast and they want us to go slow... this is just like adding the doors & dungeon alert ... things that are supposed to slow us down.

If I wanted to take an hour for some dungeon verses 5 minutes I would you really won't change that I will find a new way that you can nerf later

[Aashrym]

That's a big difference. Sneak attacks and non-bursting elemental damage getting the 1.5 multiplier will help to make up some of that difference, but the Khopesh is getting a switft kick in the jimmies while the Heavy Pick is getting disemboweled and quartered.

I like the break down. Khopesh might be taking a swift kick, and I expected the disembowelment of picks on this change, but overall it doesn't looks so bad. Considering epic mob hit points are dropping this looks better for a lot of player, my pick bard notwithstanding still has sneak attack and might just switch up weapons.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Surely the comment you are making in the text I highlighted red would apply if only the fewer most used spells were of any benefit than all spells having benefit in their own way.

Look at the bigger picture.

Yes! Finally someone who understands!

The current system is:
1. Wail of the banshee for soloing normal / elite stuff
2. Mass hold monster for epics
3. Wall of fire for trash
4. Polar ray (sometimes)
5. That's it

Woot, 3(4) spells! It's a perfect system and god curse them for nerfing hold and fw, even though they're making tons of new spells viable!

[Chidane]

I can't remember the name of it now, or even if it survived at all, but I remember reading about an MMO where you had to research all spells to discover them, and their power and effectiveness was inversely proportional to how many casters in the world were using them. For example: the more people cast wall of fire, the weaker it becomes. If that's not trademarked, etc, why not implement that system? That way you don't have to keep telling us you nerfed all the usefull spells, it can just happen automatically!

If they do that I will kill you most horribly.

[EKKM]

Pssssst: Incendiary cloud now scales with level like firewall and has no save AND blinds opponents on failed reflex save...

So they answered our pleas for more effective, high level nukes by nerfing a L4 spell and translating
it's effects to a L8 spell. Nice.

I LoLed

Am i wrong in thinking that sleep is just like hypno? Stops mobs moving, fighting etc, is removed when they are attacked.

So, in your example, at least 1 of the now useful spells is replicating what another, already useful spell, does.

I do agree that its worth holding out an seeing the finished effort.... Ive never complained about a nerf in almost 3 yrs of playing but this updates getting up my nose a bit.

Sleep
Cooldown: 2 seconds
Spell Point Cost:
Target: Foe, Positional
Level:
1 (Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard)
Components: Material, Somatic, Verbal
School: Enchantment
Metamagic: Enlarge, Eschew Materials, Extend, Heighten, Quicken
Spell Resistance: Yes
Induces a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of enemies, rendering them helpless until attacked. Ineffective on undead or constructs. A successful Will save negates this effect.

Hypnotism
Cooldown: 2 seconds
Spell Point Cost:
Target: Foe
Level:
1 (Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard)
Components: Somatic, Verbal
School: Enchantment
Metamagic: Enlarge, Extend, Heighten, Quicken
Spell Resistance: Yes
Gestures and droning incantation fascinate nearby enemies, causing them to stop and stare blankly until damaged. A successful Will save negates this effect.

Seem to be the same, sleep makes them helpless so now may be better than hypno. It also causes them to lay down, which means thay have to get up - animation to react after damage may be longer than hypno.


I haven't read the whole thread but at first I thought - good; thinking more I really worry that this will make casters a whole let less useful. While damage apparently is gettiung a buff, it still isn't comparable to melee.

Even with all of these changes, mass hold is still an effective stategy, immobolive a group of mobs, do 50% more damage than otherwise is still the WIN button, it will just take longer and use more resources. In epics, my cleric barely uses cures except on boss fights, hopefully these changes will make them more challenging without making them impossible.

A lot of people referred to ToD-2 as being a potential problem with WoF nerf, any thought to Shroud-1? Might require 2 scouts to kill the mobs now.

[Cartheron]

A lot of people referred to ToD-2 as being a potential problem with WoF nerf, any thought to Shroud-1? Might require 2 scouts to kill the mobs now.

On my palemaster I can already clean portals in shroud using necrotic blast only (not that I am relying this, I just sometimes do this for fun). Since shroud is almost always run on normal, those mobs have pathetic hp, aoe nukes will wipe them easily and reliably I think.

When kiting in ToD2 with shadowalk and haste I currently put tripple fw on the stairs every pass, which means that I could turn off extend and still have good results. With extend, it is just easier. Keep backup runner read (and who does not do that? )and everything will be fine.

Regarding "DOOOOooooooMMMMMmmmmm!!!!1111!!! CD on aoe instakill is so long now PM are useless!!!!!" part - I always thought that ability to compensate for low DC with multiple casting is lame. If you need more than 1 wail per encounter, it usually means you have chosen a wrong strategy (by not building your char correctly/targeting highest save of the monster). Now, cast Circle of Death - those who make their reflex save are mostly rogue types, they have low fort, those who fail reflex are either dead (good) or enervated and prepared for incoming wail. I will even say that casting crushing despair before Circle is even better - it is AOE, basicaly nothing that can be instakilled is immune to this, it targets weak save of mobs that have fort save as high save - pure win. How many mobs will live through such combo? You are looking at -4 to - 10 to their fort save before wail, with added chance they will die before wail. And their will saves are now trashed (form -9 to -15), follow this will mass hold, mass sugestion, mass charm or whatever and you have just cleared everything you agroed, random adds can be fingered (8seconds is not the end of the world I think). 1 shoting orange named in epic quest looks apealing too, especialy for wizards - not many really good lev 9 spells out there anyway.

Situation where you can chain different spells to get great results instead of casting 3 spells over and over is something I always waited for - this is DnD, not some random generic MMORPG then.

And I didn't even mention increase in casters dps....

I see this change as benefitial to arcane casters - there is so much complaining that casters are haste bots, mass hold dispensers and firewallers and nothing above that. It is not true now, it will be even more not true after change.

Before final verdict, we will have to see a full list of changes, but I am very optimistic, it looks like my dreams will come true

[Kriogen]

... Seem to be the same, sleep makes them helpless so now may be better than hypno. It also causes them to lay down, which means thay have to get up - animation to react after damage may be longer than hypno...

A monster can be immune vs sleep and not immune vs hypno. WF/Elfs don't sleep for example. Don't know about other monster types.

...any thought to Shroud-1? Might require 2 scouts to kill the mobs now.

You can use just 1 scout. But NOT arcane. TWF build with two of this new scimitars from CC. Works as good as current banshee. So better then the new slow instakill stuff.

What I'm saying is that those trogs are not 'harry'. Pure DPS or vorpal is as good as instakill. In U9 it may be even better because of zero cooldown.

[shimagun]

well i think its time to get your WOW memberships/subscriptions ready. :P

[voodoogroves]

Yes! Finally someone who understands!

The current system is:
1. Wail of the banshee for soloing normal / elite stuff
2. Mass hold monster for epics
3. Wall of fire for trash
4. Polar ray (sometimes)
5. That's it

Woot, 3(4) spells! It's a perfect system and god curse them for nerfing hold and fw, even though they're making tons of new spells viable!

I honestly rarely cast Polar Ray on my wizard (s). I use, in most cases, the following spells with regularity (non-buffs).

Ray of Enfeeblement, Waves of Exhaustion (used to stat-drain targets into auto-crit)
Energy Drain (typical de-buff before applying a CC)
Flesh to Stone
Wall of Fire - general trash
Ice Storm - trash, esp. epic fire resistance/immune trash (efreeti, fire reavers in eADQ for instance)
Finger of Death - late game (vale, etc) quest farming
Wail of the Banshee - late game quest farming trash killer (shroud, vale, IQ, hound)
Dancing Sphere - multi-target but stationary; better save/break profile than mass hold
Otto's Irresistible - single target, close range, no save
Hypnotism - trash control, different save / break profile than mass hold
Mass Hold Monster - immediate hold, though can break quickly
Mass Charm Monster - fast charm but shorter duration
Symbol of Persuasion - stationary charm; long lasting
Cloudkill (debuff and damage)

This spans epic and non-epic content. Note that 3 of those spells do damage (though 1 not so much). The rest of them set up other damage possibilities. I do have Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Disintegrate, Frost Lance and some sort of blasting (either Archmage blases or Pale Master blasts) but in general I control FIRST. I enjoy it. I also keep a few other clouds around, Sunburst, etc. Part of the joy is using the right tool for the job. Polar ray is really only for SP dumping on bosses, SoS fire room, etc.




Like I've been saying, I'm not declaring doom and gloom, simply pointing out the risks of changing multiple things at once.



What's the CC option with these changes? It isn't hit a debuff first, because this game is pretty fast-paced and you are going to struggle hitting one group with a debuff before it, for instance, goes through your Symbol of Persuasion. How difficult will it be to tag a group with crushing despair and hit the same ones with Mass Hold, or will they have jiggered around so the lame targeting you can do fails to get the same ones? Am I going to kite a bunch of guys around and try to debuff them while Wail is on timer? No, I'm not going to bother. Those debuff spells aren't useful, they take time. It's better to ignore them, prep the direct damage and work on pushing your save DCs into the mid 40s ... or simply become a direct damage caster.


The issue isn't mathematical changes, it's the action-efficiencies and cost in time to use each ability. If it becomes faster, easier and more efficient to simply blast things THEN THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE WILL DO.

More spells may look useful on paper, but in reality we're just going to gravitate to a single small list and my fear is the answer is going to be "DPS with magic" in nearly all cases.



In that event, then maybe we just made a whole host of spells more useful. Fire ball, acid blast, acid arrow, frost lance. Sure, maybe they are all useful. Ultimately though, they all do the exact same thing ... put damage on a target with a different set of math and animations.



I have no idea what changes in this proposal will make it to Lamia and from there what will actually make it live. I hope the kinds of options I have for control now (single vs. multi-target, instant-vs-ward, long-term hold vs. shorter term, etc.) are still USABLE in a practical sense. Not "can you prep them and cast them" - because you can do that with Power Word Kill today ... but it is impractical.




Luckily for me, I've got a few sorcs who are built for more direct damage and a FVS primed for the new radiant fun. I'll still be playing, but my wizard may spend some time as a Bard.

[Angelus_dead]

A lot of people referred to ToD-2 as being a potential problem with WoF nerf, any thought to Shroud-1?

There's actually no need for casters to roam about and zap spawns in Shroud 1. You see, the melee guys could take care of those guys by diverting just a few seconds off of their portal DPS.

The reason casters roam for spawns in Shroud 1 is they can't DPS portals. They're unable to contribute to the actual obstacle of the phase, so they look for something else to do. Potentially these adjusted spells will make casters more able to damage portals, so it won't matter who kills spawns.

[voodoogroves]

Regarding "DOOOOooooooMMMMMmmmmm!!!!1111!!! CD on aoe instakill is so long now PM are useless!!!!!" part - I always thought that ability to compensate for low DC with multiple casting is lame. If you need more than 1 wail per encounter, it usually means you have chosen a wrong strategy (by not building your char correctly/targeting highest save of the monster).

The cooldown isn't a per-encounter issue ... it's how quickly you can go from encounter to encounter. Ritual Sacrifice, for instance ... or Mindsunder / IQ quests. It's not about if you kill them all in one go, it's if you can get to the next room. Even on a 40, some things will roll a 20 or simply have decent saves.

I'm an impatient !@#$@!$

Situation where you can chain different spells to get great results instead of casting 3 spells over and over is something I always waited for - this is DnD, not some random generic MMORPG then.

I like this in concept, but how will this work is the question. If we had action macros so I could always debuff-then-hold, I'd do that. As it is with moving mobs, casting times, animations slowed when walking ... this is EXACTLY my worry spot. Can the player client effectively debuff-then-cast and hit the targets you want, or will the system delays, oddities of casting animations, etc. make this impractical and a pain? Will it take 3 seconds, and in that time the hyenas have already tripped you? Will you have to time it right before the mobs come through your symbol / dancing ball by aiming at the ground? Will the debuff fail if you're not facing the right direction, etc.? Will targeting work?

And I didn't even mention increase in casters dps....

Since CC is getting a downshift and caster DPS goes up ... if CC is annoying and action-costly all casters will gravitate towards the default action of DPS. Exactly my worry.

I see this change as benefitial to arcane casters - there is so much complaining that casters are haste bots, mass hold dispensers and firewallers and nothing above that. It is not true now, it will be even more not true after change.

Meh, I enjoy my caster. Learning to solo epics has been fun. I'm not one of those.

Before final verdict, we will have to see a full list of changes, but I am very optimistic, it looks like my dreams will come true

With the exception of the things above that I see as risks, I agree. You see the potential too, which is the area I worry with.