Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

[Bart_D]

Do we really need One Spell to rule them all?

From sorcerers/wizards get wall of fire until they retire, my bet is that the vast majority run out of level 4 components faster than any other, and that the vast majority of level 4 spells they cast is wall of fire, it's just that useful.

Given that wall of fire is so hugely popular (because it's powerful), I think it's perfectly fine to take it down a notch. Even though my wizard will be a little weaker, who knows if it will be more *fun* to rely on a wider array of spells?

[Hafeal]

Turbine, when you start posts like this thread, supplying change information to your players, you may want to include how and why you feel these changes solve some of the current complaints in the game, otherwise it seems that all you are doing is creating a larger audience who will not approve of the current game play.

Hmmm ... I thought the OP's post was, in fact, supplying the "how" and "why" (regardless of your position on whether or not you agree).

The changes sound interesting. I agree with the effort to have casters, especially beyond mid high level, cast more than a handful of spells. My hope is that the metamagic feats are being given a re-think as well; perhaps a scaling mechanism as well.

[charmor]

#1: Wall of fire should be a Fort save for half damage. Not Reflex. I'm sorry, if you're running THROUGH a wall of fire, there is no way to evade the damage. My concern here is the mass numbers of evasion mobs with absurd saves suddenly becoming immune to WoF. I totally understand the concept why... better to bake them in a wall than to kite through. I just dont like the idea of the reflex/evasion on it.

Agree completely.

Reflex saves are for rays and blasts which you can avoid by moving fast. Fort for half damage seems a pretty nice idea for Wall of Fire.

[Aashrym]

But it is obvious. The helpless victim gains 50% damage vulnerability from all sources. People don't seem to realize that their pure good will be doing 1d6*1.5, although they will be giving up a lot of seeker and maiming damage. I expect to see some new crazy high crit numbers from barbs. Crit multiplier on a 20: x6*1.5 with an Epic SOS, make it happen max strength FBs.

That's what I was thinking. I'm not positive it's as much of a damage loss as some players think even thought it will affect some weapons.

[voodoogroves]

Wait ... just caught this ...

Touch of Idiocy has a save? It's not supposed to ...

... is it heightenable then? If it's heightenable, then it's SP reduction is near meaningless, unless you as a player can afford the action-cost of turning off heighten, casting this spell, then turning on heighten again ....



... or are the carrier debuffs being introduced to further restrict the need/use of metamagic?

[PopeJual]

That's what I was thinking. I'm not positive it's as much of a damage loss as some players think even thought it will affect some weapons.

Normal attacks from a weapon, not counting sneak attacks and other effects that aren't multiplied on crit (Holy, Pure Good, etc)
Light Mace, no improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 20

Heavy Pick, no improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 22

Scimitar, no improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 18-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 22

Khopesh, no improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 19-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 23

With improved crit...

Light Mace, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 21

Heavy Pick, and improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25

Scimitar, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 15-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25

Khopesh, and improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 17-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 27

With improved crit and Kensai III

Light Mace, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 18-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 22

Heavy Pick, and improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 18-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 28

Scimitar, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 14-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 26

Khopesh, and improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 16-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 29

Autocrit

Light Mace in autocrit = miss on 1, x2 on 2-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 38

Heavy Pick in autocrit = miss on 1, x4 on 2-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 76

Scimitar in autocrit = miss on 1, x2 on 2-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 38

Khopesh in autocrit = miss on 1, x3 on 2-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 57


With improved crit under the new "helpless" state

Light Mace, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 21 * 1.5 = 31.5

Heavy Pick, and improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25 * 1.5 = 37.5

Scimitar, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 15-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25 * 1.5 = 37.5

Khopesh, and improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 17-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 27 * 1.5 = 40.5

That's a big difference. Sneak attacks and non-bursting elemental damage getting the 1.5 multiplier will help to make up some of that difference, but the Khopesh is getting a switft kick in the jimmies while the Heavy Pick is getting disemboweled and quartered.

Take a look at elemental and alignment burst damage and you'll see something similar.

Heavy Pick alignment burst in current autocrit = 5d6 = 17.5 damage * 19 = 332.5 damage per 20 swings
Heavy Pick elemental burst in current autocrit = 3d10 = 16.5 damage * 19 = 313.5 damage per 20 swings

Heavy Pick alignment burst on new "helpless" target = 5d6 = 17.5 damage * 2 * 1.5 = 52.5 damage per 20 swings
Heavy Pick elemental burst in current autocrit = 3d10 = 16.5 damage * 2 * 1.5 = 49.5 damage per 20 swings

[fuzzy1guy]

Hey folks! As you’ve probably have already heard we have a major spell pass coming down the pipe. The full details will be released soon but we figured we’d cover some general cases and some the reasoning for the changes ahead of the Lamannia preview. Today we’ll look at the changes coming to spell cost ratios, CC spells, death effects, and spell points… here we go!

SPELL COST TO EFFECT RATIOS CHANGES:

For years now the cost of all spells have been strictly driven by this formula:

Base Spell cost = 5 SP + (spell level X 5).

IE: a level 1 spell is 10 sp, while a level 9 spell is 50 sp, and so forth.

While we got by with this, it didn’t exactly always make for the most diverse spell choices for those people who crunched the numbers to determine what to use. When you looked at the math, folks get very attached to certain spells, namely “wall of fire” for very logical reasons. This is a shame considering the art/dev resources devoted to the creation of so many other spells also floating in the system.

On another note, it has become a noticeable point that arcane casters are a rather difficult class to get into. The Classic 3.5 D&D concept of starting weak then gain cosmic power. While loyal to our roots we felt that perhaps the current learning curve is a bit too harsh, and we’re looking at making it an easier class role to enter for new players.

So we’re mixing things up! The spell pass was mostly focused on “damage” spells, but does extends into debuffs and other areas to a degree. We’re changing the costs and what spells do and we’ve changed far too much for me to cover it in just this post but I’m going to give you a list of examples to give you an idea of where we’re going…

Let’s take some main stream spells with a few “less popular” spells and see what you think….

SO casters are harder to play and more difficult to get into playing... So what do you do? Make all the stuff they do now a little less effective? and THATS supposed to make people want to play them now? Bull... i play them now and after these changes even i don't see what point there would be to taking me along.

Old way:

1. Burning Hands ( 10 SP)
2. Melf’s Acid Arrow ( 15 SP)
3. Scorching Ray ( 15 SP)
4. Lightning Bolt ( 20 SP)
5. Wall of fire ( 25 SP)
6. Delayed blast fire ball (40 sp)
7. Incendiary cloud: ( 45 SP)
8. Polar Ray (45 SP)

Now let’s change that too…

1. Burning Hands (down to 4 SP – other stats unchanged)

A crappy spell now is still just as crappy but costs less! You still can't hit a damm thing while it's moving.

2. Melf’s Acid Arrow (down to 6 SP – Damage updated to 2d4 + 1 per caster level, duration locked to 12 seconds, now has double range, can no longer be enlarged or extended, ray targeting has been improved)

A crappy spell now has double range! Cuz yeah... that really was the problem with it. really. and slightly more damage. ok... an earth sav might spam it. but it's stil crappy.

3. Scorching Ray (down to 6 SP – now has double range, can no longer be enlarged, ray targeting has been improved.)

More range! thats what we needed! it's useless but cheap!

4. Lightning Bolt (down to 12 SP – now has double range and 50% change to hit each target twice (back stroke!) – targets get an additional save against the back stroke). Can no longer be enlarged.

Useless and cheap is still useless again.

5. Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)

Reflex save? really? half damage? maybe.. zero damage? hurray i can no longer kite anything with a reflex save. And why did i take this for undead again? Why did i take extend? That was stupid of me.

6. Delayed blast fire ball: (25 SP/12 sp for trap version): trap cool down increased to 15 seconds, 10 seconds for sorcerers

We're not even playing the same game are we...

7. Incendiary cloud (Cost remains 45 SP – Now does 2d4 + 1 per caster level in fire damage, no save. Duration locked to 30 seconds. Blind effect (previously no save) now has a reflex save. Can no longer be extended)

A crappy spell got another save making it even worse? But oh! slightly better damage. and no more extend... An expensive firewall that wont blind anything anyway.

8. Polar Ray (Cost down to 15 SP, range doubled, can no longer be enlarged, ray targeting has been improved.)

the ONE good thing you did. i get to spam polar ray cheaper. and will do a half assed job at it unless i'm cold specced.

Crushing Depair: Cost reduced to 20 SP, now applies a weakn will effect for 15 seconds regardless of saving throw from original effect (will -5).

Touch of Idocy: Cost reduced to 5 SP, Now also weaks foes will save for -5 for 15 seconds regardless of save.

So i can now drop their saves. and hit them with something else. And when the debuff wears off. They'll save right out of the cc. I just burnt 5/20 sp to buy 15 seconds.. And they'll save out right as it wears off.

Upper hit point cap removed except in PVP. Kills, no save, but spell resistance applies.
240 second cool down for wizards, 210 second cool down for sorcerors

Once every 4 minutes i get to kill one thing. Thats... Not awesome.

SPELL POINT REGEN – Echoes of Power:

We’ll be introducing a limited form of spell point regen for players who have “magical training” (as in the feat). This is to avoid a true “out of gas” situation for our casters. The concept is that when a caster drops below a certain spell point threshold a spell point regen effect known as “echoes of power” applies itself until the caster reaches that threshold again. The goal is to allow low level players continue to cast level 1 spells at a diminished rate when their “out of gas” while high level players will be able to continue to use their PRE-s with the meta magics they normally require for high level play.

This is entirely useless past level 2. It's a joke right? Hey lets give them sp regen. Capped to level 1! That'll be so awesomely useless we'll all have a great laugh.




Bottom line is all the stuff i can do now. I will either not be doing anymore. Or will suck a little harder at it.

instantkills - No more running around 1 shotting stuff in my way. I could maybe walk. With exaustion on. And still not have the timers expire before the next guy. you'd be better off with a wizard. they could slot more instant death spells so at least one would be off timer most of the time.

cc - With the saves boost. wont be landing these well enough to bother. i can barely do it now. you'd be better with a wizard.. their cooldowns suck almost as much. but they have the dc and spell pen to do this.

I would need debuffs. which buy me a whole extra 15 seconds. until the debuff expires and they save out anyway because you'd be better off with a wizard and their better dc.

kiting - Well i can still kite stuff with no reflex save. All the rest.. I get to spam ray spells with a reflex save at them? You'd be better off with a wizard who could slot several types of aoe dots to kite thru so you could at least target their weak element.

nuking - If i'm specced for the needed element it i get to nuke great. And suck in the other 3/4ths of the content.
Altho if you brought a wizard they could have all of the element types avail.

buffing - well it's kinda stupid for me to take extend now. So my buffs won't be that great.. haste? rage? displacement? nah. no extend. sorry. you'd be better off with a wizard who has extend as one of their 5 extra free feats.


So i should be a wizard? Because it's now entirely stupid for a sorc to exist. Let alone take them in a party. Wizards can do all but one thing better. And sorc could only do that one thing better if they were specced for the proper element. And be a useless piker in anything else.

So my choices come down to making 4 casters. One for each element. So they could do THAT well at least. Or just replace them all with 1 wizard. which can do everything and still be ok at the elements.

I heard there was a new nwn comming. whens that? it looks like i need a new game for my magic fix.

[Seikojin]

Chaaanngggeeee….

-Torc
DDO Game Systems

Every time I see that in my inbox, I think of DBZ. LOL

All in all, I think the changes to spells is going to be great. Anything that pushes people to using more strategy is a good thing if you ask me.

From these snippets, it looks like people will do more gathering of enemies to compensate for the longer cooldowns. PWK will be a one shot spell against non-immune/non-boss mobs.

I just wish Turn undead gets love soon. Like real love. I know the turn curve is inverted, so I can understand the need for protection on those prevelant skellies, but it would be nice to see turns work after level 4.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

This is entirely useless past level 2. It's a joke right? Hey lets give them sp regen. Capped to level 1! That'll be so awesomely useless we'll all have a great laugh.

The idea is that low level casters will always have a tiny bit of juice. I don't think this is needed at all, but if it is then I'd say cap it more at 30, 12 is almost pointless. I would however dread seeing it extended to be a full regen even at cap.

[fiera]

Cool! So my question regarding this is, when are melee's gonna get a "Second Wind" effect that kicks in when things have gotten hurty and the HP's are low? Yeah, I know, I know, "there's heal pots and clerics for HP", right? Well, there's also SP pots and Divine Vitality for SP.

You forgot we already have both these things ...want sp regen bring a spellsinger, want hp regen bring a virt..and then of course cleric dv's now Regen so you could if you wanted to sit around for a bit theoretically heal an entire quest just using bursts...and just b/c your nice give the wizard some mana too. We can also make con oppt items,but that's besides the point. but however they don't have these things at low levels so I am guessing that they intend to make it easier for bad casters to get to lvl 6 with this you know since it was so hard for them to fall over dead and pike in the cleric's pocket till lvl 7 before right?

[Barazon]

5. Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)

Just be honest and say "we're nerfing wall of fire, we're tired of it being used all the time, and we want it to stop". Undead have always taken double damage from it; I just pulled out my 1st edition Player's Handbook: "Creatures especially subject to fire may take additional damage, and undead always take twice normal damage."

Reflex save? Have you read the description of wall of fire? By walking into a wall of fire you are intentionally choosing to walk into fire. There's no 'reflex' that will move you out of the way of this choice: you are choosing to walk through the fire. A reflex save is all about being quick enough to dodge AWAY from the damage, not INTO the damage.

The only time wall of fire has ever allowed a saving throw is at the moment it is cast, if the target is moving. Starting with 2nd edition, "attempting to catch a moving target with a newly-cast wall of fire is difficult; a successful saving throw enables the creature to avoid the wall, while its rate and direction of movement determine which side of the created wall it is on." I will grant that the amount of damage done by firewall in the game is equal to the "walking through" damage, not the "standing on one side" damage, and I always attributed it to the situation in this paragraph: checking for movement vectors, etc, is more complicated to compute than fixed damage by being within a certain distance of the wall.

What about lava and deep lava? By your logic, rogues should get a reflex save for swimming in it, as long as they keeps moving!

[Sothary]

Do you guys ever consider doing things in gradual steps ? Firewall has been overpowered since it has been introduced and I like making it cost more but not being able to extend it makes it cost way more. Fail.

Does Wail of the Banshee now have a 30/25 second cool-down. If the answer is yes, then we have another fail.

Looks like you took a bunch of spells which are useless after the market and lowered their costs so that they are now lower costing useless spells. Fail.

There are lots of spells in this game that have effects that don't measure up to the hd of the actual content we face and are therefore useless such as Circle of Death and Power word kill. They are not used because a lvl 20 sorc can kill things with Cone of cold in a lvl 10 quest faster than either spell would work and a lvl 20 sorc has no reason to be in a lvl 10 quest. If you want to make high level spells useful then make them work against monsters at the level range they would be used at and make them affect appropriate hd. This is your first non-fail.


Many of these changes look okay for Wizards but are brutal for Sorcs unless you really introduce the easy button and make Sorcs able to swap spells every few hours and if you do that you get another fail.

Scorching ray is not little used at level but is probably nothing more than a finishing spell at end game which is why many Sorcs drop it. Lowering the cost is great for low level quests but at end-game is not really going to be felt. To me it looks like most of the changes fall into this category. It looks like most of the changes only benefit low level questing and hurt high level questing. This = win for lowbies and once again, fail for endgame.

I used Sorcs as examples in most of this since they have to take spells semi-permanently whereas Wizards can adjust but Sorcs have been the unloved step-children for a bit now and this makes it seem even more so,,, unless we want to play them at low levels forever.


Without testing any of this I see most of it as your usual over-balance act and give it a double fail. I hope I am wrong.

/signed +1

[tihocan]

Those look like sensible changes. Sure, it's a change, and changes in MMOs are always bad, but once the dust settle I think we'll still be having fun

The D&D purist in me is crying even louder though!

[mel]

Now, a decent DC in epic is 40-42. After the change, with the announced raising of epic mobs saves what DC be requiered? 45-47? I'm wondering how many people will be able to reach that.

I'm worried that the change gives us more options in damage spell, but force us to abandon the CC route i.e. fewer options, fewer playstyle eventually. Not speaking about the nerf of extend which will reduce even more the choices. I really, really hope that in the rpocess to enhance the game, the devs didn't transform it into a hack and slash. I'm crossing fingers here, but I'm really worried.

[Thrudh]

I really like the changes, but I agree with others that metamagic costs need to be looked at too...

Also, the Power Word: Kill cooldown is way too long... make it 60 or 90 seconds instead.

[tihocan]

By walking into a wall of fire you are intentionally choosing to walk into fire. There's no 'reflex' that will move you out of the way of this choice: you are choosing to walk through the fire.

I think a reflex save is a much lesser nerf than improving the AI to move out of AoE spell effects

[fuzzy1guy]

Those look like sensible changes. Sure, it's a change, and changes in MMOs are always bad, but once the dust settle I think we'll still be having fun

The D&D purist in me is crying even louder though!

This is not sensible..

Tell me.. For what possible reason would any party take a sorc for now? Theres only one. They are element specced for that particular content.

Any other job can be done better by a wizard.
And they could hold their own in any of the elements as well.

I don't wanna be @$#%^@#% useless most of the time.

[learst]

The D&D purist in me is crying even louder though!

That wouldn't happen to be tears of joy, no?

*sorry, can't resist*

I like to things sticking to D&D too, but I think that ship sailed a long time ago...

[Zirun]

This is not sensible..

Tell me.. For what possible reason would any party take a sorc for now? Theres only one. They are element specced for that particular content.

Any other job can be done better by a wizard.
And they could hold their own in any of the elements as well.

I don't wanna be @$#%^@#% useless most of the time.

Take Earth/Air Savant. Have more powerful nukes at your disposal than a Wizard, and more powerful earth/air buffs than a Wizard can provide. If you need, you have water/fire spells you can use just as well as a Wizard, so you can still use that Wall of Fire or Polar Ray as well as they can. With higher SP, lower cooldowns, and lower casting times, though, you still do more damage than a Wizard.

If you think you're going to be useless after these changes, what makes you useful now? Sorcerers by design are better at damage-dealing than Wizards are (higher SP, faster casting, lower cooldowns) while Wizards are better at CC (higher DCs, higher number of spell slots allowing room for variety of debuffs/CC if necessary). The only problem with that currently is that damage-dealing spells suck outside of Wall of Fire (and maybe one or two other spells, like Polar Ray) because they generally drain SP too quickly for the damage they provide. With lower spell costs and buffs to many damage spells, damage-dealing casters (Sorcs) get a huge buff.

[Barazon]

I can't remember the name of it now, or even if it survived at all, but I remember reading about an MMO where you had to research all spells to discover them, and their power and effectiveness was inversely proportional to how many casters in the world were using them. For example: the more people cast wall of fire, the weaker it becomes. If that's not trademarked, etc, why not implement that system? That way you don't have to keep telling us you nerfed all the usefull spells, it can just happen automatically!