Battle Cleric?

[Habreno]

I've been toying with the idea of making a battle cleric. Have an itineration of one on Argonessen leveled to 4 from Veteran, but was really thinking about the stats today. Don't have a planner on this computer, but here's my ideas:


My restrictions (since I will be rolling one up)

Doable with 1000 favor (this gives only Drow and Veteran status)
Monk is out
Favored Soul is out
Warforged is out
Half Elf is out
Half Orc is out.

1) This would only truly work on a race that either has no base stat modifications or Drow. If you aren't using Drow, you'll need 32-point builds. If you can make it work on something with base stat modifications, it is possible but hard: Elf immediately comes to mind. Dwarves would have insanely difficult times with the CHA requirement. Warforged would have the same difficulty. Halflings would have strength issues. Being not VIP, I don't quite know all the classes.

2) This is definitively not new-player friendly. I would actually recommend not doing this on anything that has not been TRed yet due to difficulties in statistics and heavy tome requrements. I recommend at least 10 tomes for the build, with at least 6 decently necessary.

3) How you build this depends on what race you pick: I will list what I've thought through but you can take it how you wish.

DROW: 28 point build

STR: 16 <- You need the strength to swing. And hit. Hard. Four level ups into this.
DEX: 10 <- 10 base from DROW. No points into it.
CON: 12 <- 6 points, no less. More if you manage it.
INT: 12 <- Skill points. Drop this if you don't want them.
WIS: 12 <- Can be as low as 10 on a double TR. You need 19 with items, tomes, and enhancements. 12 is best on a first life.
CHA: 16 <- 20 base CHA for Divine Might IV at level 20. +3 tome almost necessary for this; one level up makes this 20 with that. If you pass on a +4 CHA tome you don't need any level ups into it.


Recommended: Tomes:

+1 STR at L4
+1 WIS at L4 (optional)
+2 WIS at L7
+2 CON at L7
+2 STR at L7
+2 CHA at L7 <- Not necessary at this level but highly recommended. You need it by L15 for DM3.
+2 INT at L7 if you want the skill points.

+3 CHA by L20, +4 CHA by L20 if you manage it.
+4 STR when acquired; not mandatory but highly recommended.
+4 CON when acquired; also not mandatory but highly recommended.
+4 INT if passed down and you want the skill points. Not necessary.
+4 WIS if you want the SP. +3 WIS if you don't need all 4 points.

Any +2/+4 DEX tome is welcomed, but not necessary.


Level ups:

L4: STR
L8: STR
L12:STR
L16:STR
L20:CHA unless you have a +4 tome. STR if you have it.


HUMAN: 32 point build

STR: 16
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

As can clearly be seen, Drow > Human at 28/32 point level. Drow gains an extra 2 points in Dexterity and Wisdom for a 2 point Constitution reduction. Keep in mind Intelligence can be taken as high or low as needed for your skill points.

Tomes: Same as Drow.

Planned Feats:

L1) *Have to look this up*
L3) Toughness
L6) Empower Healing (to qualify for the Radiant Servant PrE, about the only healing end-game you'll be useful for)
L9) Force of Personality (Your CHA will be so much higher than your WIS after items. If you don't like the sound of it, take something else)
L12) Extra Turning (If you don't need this, take something else. I might pull this anyway; given a CHA going up to 30-32, you should have enough turns...)
L15) Toughness (More HPs are always welcome)
L18) Quicken (can be swapped with Toughness at L15 if wanted)

Turns (to be used on Divine Might):

16 CHA + 3 tome + 1 level = qualification for DM4 (20)
20 CHA + 7 item + 3 exceptional + 2 enhancement = 32.
32-10=22/2=11 modifier + 3 base = 14 turns without items or feats.
+4 for Extra Turning feat = 18
+(I think 4) from enhancements increasing turns = 22

There are also items which grant more turns.

Total consistent time in DM4 at L20: 43 uninterrupted minutes of Divine Might 4 before any break.



AFTER 1 TR:

DROW: 30 Point Build

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 14 <- Two extra points over 28 point build here.
CHA: 16

Level ups the same.

Feats the same.

HUMAN: 34 Point Build

STR: 16
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 12 <- Two extra points over 32 point build here.
CHA: 16

Level ups the same.

Feats the same.

Drow still wins over Human for higher DEX and WIS.


2+ TR (the only point at which I recommend trying this build-even better with Completionist)

DROW: 32 Point Build (Two versions of this build; take your pick: Version 3 is ONLY if taking Completionist affects base CHA-I do not know; if it does not, ignore V3 entirely)

STR: 16/16/16
DEX: 10/10/10
CON: 14/12/14 <- V1's use of the four extra points over 28 point build.
INT: 12/12/12
WIS: 12/15/14 <- Two extra points in V2 over 30 point build.
CHA: 16/16/14 <- V3: Assuming Completionist affects base CHA, 14 + 1 level + 3 tome + 2 feat = 20 requisite.


HUMAN: 36 point build

STR: 16
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHA: 16


Feats/Tome requirements the same.


Final notes:

1) This build would be very intensive. You would definitively need to use a planner to plan this out fully; I did not because I did not have access to one when thinking of this and because it is something you should plan out yourself to your playstyle. If you want a battlecleric do you want something that can fight well with DPS or do you want something that would prefer to splash? This is only a pure-DPS non-splashed Cleric. You may want to use this for ideas and take it your own way.

2) This build is NOT FOR NEW PLAYERS. The only reason I am trying it on a first-life Drow is because I want to have some fun with it; If it does hit L20 it would be TRed into another Battlecleric. I would personally recommend getting at least two past lives, or even better Completionist, before even attempting this. It is very stat, tome, and gear-dependent. Making sure you have the requirements as early as possible is very key. DM4 is the ONLY thing you can postpone (or skip entirely if this is just to get a Cleric past life for a Completionist journey) as it is L20 and requires at minimum a +3 CHA tome to work efficently. While a +4 would work even better, it is not necessary.

3) KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. Yes, this re-interates #2, but I cannot stress enough... Be willing to tell people you're not a healer, you're DPS. You won't be able to cast pretty much anything efficently, your SP will be low, and your HP will need several items to bring it up. Your SP will pretty much just buff everyone. Perhaps a quickened Heal on yourself when soloing, or a quickened Mass Cure every now and then. You will be using Concordant Opposition a lot.


Good luck. If you have comments, or have tried/are trying/will try something along these lines, PLEASE let me know what works about it and what doesn't.

Two things I do not want left here (and my automatic responses to them as they will inevitably come)

1) Your build skills suck. Implies to me you think you are better than I am; this is my first try at posting any builds here. I am new to designing builds for people in general, you were new as well once.

2) Clerics cannot be DPS with melee. Implies you did not read the thread. Please do so then post a revised opinion. If you mean they cannot be DPS with melee and heal, you still did not read the comments: I said this is not meant to DPS and heal...


Other than that, post away!

[FlyingTurtle]

I thought of something similar.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302376

The crowd has spoken, and I believe the verdict is: Gimp.

[Habreno]

I thought of something similar.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302376

The crowd has spoken, and I believe the verdict is: Gimp.

Did not see this as searching sucks but although people thought it was gimp then, if better designed it may not be. This was inspired to me by Tukataw (the 16 sorc/2x/2x that ended up soloing pretty much anything; I am dearly sorry I forget the spelling of your name) and is generally in that style; solo capable at high levels.

However, nobody there explored TR/double TR/Completionist builds; that discussion was on a first-life. While on a first life it would be VERY difficult, in past-life builds, even not splashed, it can be a decent alternative to building a healing/casting Cleric and having to become a nannybot.

[unfiguroutable]

personal opinion is that drow are unsuited for anything besides caster. They are too squishy for battle cleric imo. Also outside of flavor i see no good reason to make a battle cleric. I have a level 11 battle cleric and it is just not tough enough, does not have a hight enough BAB, does not have a high enough to hit bonus, does not have a high enough AC, can't heal as well as a healing cleric...etc etc. IMO a well made cleric should be a healer first. Learn that then learn the other parts of your class when you have gear and and experience. I would never make another "battle cleric" I would make a cleric that healed. Not to say I would stand in the back and heal bot, because I wouldn't, but I would respect my primary roll as party/raid healer. in my search for great self supporting melee toons I have fallen in love with bards and rangers.

[Habreno]

I have a L20 Cleric that is a healer/caster type. He is nice to play but being just that is getting boring. Other than the fact that you have a Battle Cleric at L11 that does not have enough to-hit, BAB, AC, and healing power, I do not see anything about your build. Is he TRed at all? Do you have any tomes on him? What sort of gear do you have? What race are you? These are things which will make or break any Battlecleric build. Note that this build is NOT MEANT to heal anyone; it is meant to buff with SP, provide healing when possible, and it gives me an aura which regenerates. There is not a need for 43 continuous minutes of DM4. There is an aura, there are bursts, these both regenerate and are on the same counter as DM4.

And if you don't think Drow will work, suggest an alternate race aside from Human which I have done.

[Kahless_of_Cannith]

Regardless of race, what does this build contribute to a group? You admit you cannot be a functional healer, and yet your dps will never be anywhere near equal to an equally well-geared, well-played barb, fighter, etc. who is specced for dps even with all points into str and divine might.

Finally, why would anyone need the skill points? Concentration and balance would be the only obvious choices, with the possibility of intimi for mana regen.

A better battle-type build imho may be found here (keep in mind it is for a second life tr and kinda old) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...hlight=samulos

[Meat-Head]

First of all, good luck. This is tricky to build right AND prolly harder to play right.

I have a capped pure cleric I want to TR into a melee cleric (prolly 2 ftr splash).

You don't lose a lot by splashing 1-2 fighter on this build. You gain Weapon Profs, badly needed feats, some HPs, and some to-hit.

Also, you don't mention it, but I'm guess you're going THF NOT TWF based on your stats. (not enuf dex). So, the link post about TWF Drow being gimp is not entirely relevant.

If you DO NOT want to be a healer other than yourself, I recommend a Pally. A high CHA pally drow can be great dps and self-heal very well. (see Junts Pally Guide, and look at the "advanced builds" link.)

I think you're a little too married to DM4. You'll need more to-hit. So, settle with DM3 and up STR or CON.

Horc, Helf, and Human seem better choices to me than Drow as long as you have 32+ builds.

You're right that this is easier with a TR.

[unfiguroutable]

if you are serious about a melee cleric I think a 32 point Horc with higher str would be better and maybe with a splash of fighter. Their is another thread about this right now and his build looks pretty good.

[Habreno]

Yes, I'm planning on making one of those by TRing my clonk. Are you having a good time with the build? Probably go with 10-12 base wisdom half-orc. But that is a specialized battle cleric build, whereas this is what I call an advanced cleric build, which can offensive cast, heal and melee. Two different types of toons. Not going full wisdom frees up a ton of build points, but you pretty much lose your offensive casting abilities other than some wimpy but ok in some situations bladebarriers.

Was reading the thread linked http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...samulos&page=2 and found this quote. If he's considering doing it, it's not something nobody will do and can't be too bad.

First of all, good luck. This is tricky to build right AND prolly harder to play right.

I have a capped pure cleric I want to TR into a melee cleric (prolly 2 ftr splash).

You don't lose a lot by splashing 1-2 fighter on this build. You gain Weapon Profs, badly needed feats, some HPs, and some to-hit.

Also, you don't mention it, but I'm guess you're going THF NOT TWF based on your stats. (not enuf dex). So, the link post about TWF Drow being gimp is not entirely relevant.

If you DO NOT want to be a healer other than yourself, I recommend a Pally. A high CHA pally drow can be great dps and self-heal very well. (see Junts Pally Guide, and look at the "advanced builds" link.)

I think you're a little too married to DM4. You'll need more to-hit. So, settle with DM3 and up STR or CON.

Horc, Helf, and Human seem better choices to me than Drow as long as you have 32+ builds.

You're right that this is easier with a TR.

Couple questions to fire back at you. Love your post BTW, this is EXACTLY the kind of feedback I need.

1) Would CLR18/PAL2 still qualify for DM4? I know you said I'm over attracted to it but it is a very viable option.

2) I would like to be a Cleric for the masses of buffs you can get through spells. The l8/l9 spells are not why I went 20 CLR originally; it was for the capstone with DI.

[Ilklr]

My personal opinion is that drow are unsuited for anything besides caster. They are too squishy for battle cleric imo.

I disagree. They only take a -2 con (believe me, I don't like - to con either). They can help relieve the pressure from MAD characters, and can be quite good for 28 pointers, depending on the build. Even on drow, you're likely to see 26+ con, which is not all that squishy.

Also outside of flavor i see no good reason to make a battle cleric.

Agreed. I was under the impression that this was a flavor build.

As for the OP: In the end, we play to have fun, and nobody can tell you how to do that. If this is something you'd have fun playing, go for it.

I personally wouldn't roll one; it seems like you're working awfully hard (+4 tomes, multiple TR, etc.) just to make a character viable. If I'm going to TR 2 or 3 times, I'll be bringing out the big guns.

Tome usage looks a little suspect, but perhaps I misunderstand your intentions.

Not to be too hard on you, but the fact that you even included those two posting stipulations implies bad things. If you expect people to tell you your build sucks, you're doomed from the start. I'm not saying it does, but I'd be wary of putting this much work into a build you might not feel 100% about.

Again, though, if you do feel strongly about this build, definitely have fun with it. Don't let anyone tell you what to do, or what not to do. If you go with it, let us know how it works out.

[Habreno]

I intended it as something that's both decently viable from 1-19 and still powerful at 20. Viability from 1-19 means you can cut out any +3/+4 tome in the build. The only truly necessary tome is +3 CHA if you want DM4 at L20. Any other +4 is optional, highly advised to do if you want to keep the build at L20 a while, but not necessary. If I were to roll one up with a completionist prior to it, I would definitively eat several +4 tomes and keep the build for ages. The +4s and +3s are not necessary if you are running to 20 just to get a Cleric Past Life in (and then you can even splash as L20 is not key, and thus the benefits from DI are nil as you are TRing again) but highly advised if not TRing.

I had stated that do not tell me my BUILDING SKILLS suck. I'm perfectly fine with hearing "this build sucks" if you tell me why and what to fix it!

Battle Cleric is not just flavor. If you have the gear from a few past lives and the plat for a few +2 tomes or are willing to drop the TP on a +2 Supreme Ability tome from the DDO store (however that is worded, I don't know) at L7, you are perfectly fine with rolling a Battle Cleric instead of a caster/healer Cleric just for the past life. I know that some people (stated in in-game chat a while back) have not done a Cleric past life yet on their Completionist journey because they don't want to play a heal class. This gives them an option for rolling a Cleric and avoiding major healing.

Also, at Unbongwah, I do not have Monk. Though I'm sure it's a viable alternative for a Battle-Cleric build, it would not work for me. However, seeing as L9 spells will be practically useless, it would work given Monk, and would probably work better than a pure CLR 20.

Thank you for your very informative post and sorry I originally missed it.

[Meat-Head]

I intended it as something that's both decently viable from 1-19 and still powerful at 20. Viability from 1-19 means you can cut out any +3/+4 tome in the build. The only truly necessary tome is +3 CHA if you want DM4 at L20. Any other +4 is optional, highly advised to do if you want to keep the build at L20 a while, but not necessary. If I were to roll one up with a completionist prior to it, I would definitively eat several +4 tomes and keep the build for ages. The +4s and +3s are not necessary if you are running to 20 just to get a Cleric Past Life in (and then you can even splash as L20 is not key, and thus the benefits from DI are nil as you are TRing again) but highly advised if not TRing.

I had stated that do not tell me my BUILDING SKILLS suck. I'm perfectly fine with hearing "this build sucks" if you tell me why and what to fix it!

Battle Cleric is not just flavor. If you have the gear from a few past lives and the plat for a few +2 tomes or are willing to drop the TP on a +2 Supreme Ability tome from the DDO store (however that is worded, I don't know) at L7, you are perfectly fine with rolling a Battle Cleric instead of a caster/healer Cleric just for the past life. I know that some people (stated in in-game chat a while back) have not done a Cleric past life yet on their Completionist journey because they don't want to play a heal class. This gives them an option for rolling a Cleric and avoiding major healing.

Also, at Unbongwah, I do not have Monk. Though I'm sure it's a viable alternative for a Battle-Cleric build, it would not work for me. However, seeing as L9 spells will be practically useless, it would work given Monk, and would probably work better than a pure CLR 20.

Thank you for your very informative post and sorry I originally missed it.

Honestly, I don't know why some ppl think clerics can't melee. Divine Might is beast.

I was thinking some more, and if you go ONLY 15 cleric, you get DM3, Rad Serv 2, and all the buffs you want. You only miss level 9 spells (no buffs there).

Then splash ftr (haste boost) and/or Pally for saves. But, I'd start with an 18 STR + if wanting to focus on melee. But, HPs are going to be a little low. No way around it. BUT, your self healing will be crazy good.

Also, if you wanna do damage, you need Power Attack.

Power attack+DM3+Ftr haste+18str (level ups here except for maybe 1 in Cha)+divine favor+divine power= DPS. Anyone who says otherwise is talking crazy. It may not be full on 20 barb or Kensai.. But it won't be too far behind AND will bring more to a group and will be more survivable.

BTW, if you got at least 4 levels of fighter, you can get Haste boost 2 for +5% speed.

It's certainly NOT cookie cutter, but it would work.

One downside: Most pugs will accept a cleric icon and assume they are getting Hjealz for the group. Just the way it is.

Possible Build

32 Horc

18
8
14
6
11
15

= Doable with a +2 Cha tome and 1 level up

OR

Dump wis at 8, put CHA at 16, now just need a +2 tome and some Exceptional Wis item + Enchancements to be able to cast level 8 Spells

8 wis + 6item = 14. +2 enchancements = 16 + 2 Exc Wis on DT or GS or whatev = Level 8 spells.

Either way it's doable.

After all of this, the quest is, why not just roll a pally?

Answer, I suppose, is Rad Serv II.

[unbongwah]

I'm not saying I think this is a good build, mind you; but if the idea is to be melee-focused, would you be willing to sacrifice lvl 9 spells & DM IV for something like this?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Drow Female
(2 Fighter \ 2 Monk \ 16 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 281
Spell Points: 860 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 12
Will: 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            16                    18
Constitution         12                    14
Intelligence         10                    12
Wisdom                8                    12
Charisma             16                    18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (swap for Power Attack at higher level)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Cleric)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might III
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery IV

I'm reasonably willing to bet that TWF w/rapiers + DM III > THF + DM IV, esp. with drow racial weapon enhs. You could drop the 2nd ftr lvl as well: lose a feat (prob. Empower) and +1 STR enh; gain lvl 9 spells.