Battle Cleric?

[Meat-Head]

i made a 28 pt battle cleric, dwarf, with: 16/8/16/8/14/12, all lvl-ups into str.

pure cleric, no need to splash.

feats
1. greataxe
3. toughness
6. empower healing
9. extend (drop this for Power Attack around lvl 18)
12. ic:slashing
15. quicken
18. maximize

1. divine favor, power, and might will allow you to hit things. you an melee similar to a Pally without smites.
2. make the most of healing aura, less time spent casting heals means more time swinging.
3. mass heals centered on yourself, keeps group together and lets you stay in the front line while still pulling healing duty
4. some raids you will have to pull healbot duty, otherwise party will wipe. it's just the many raids are run in a robotic way and its nearly impossible to deaviate from established tactics

Drow could be interesting, Maybe you can make TWF work with Rapiers and weapon finese?

EXCEPT he wanted higher levels of Divine Might. harder to do that on a dorf unless you dump wis. Which you can.
Also, for meleeing, splashing ftr/pally just make more sense. Why waste a feat on Greataxe when you can get it PLUS a feat with either of the splashes. The build you list is fine as long as you wanna be a healer. He said he doesn't.

[FlyingTurtle]

i made a 28 pt battle cleric, dwarf, with: 16/8/16/8/14/12, all lvl-ups into str.

pure cleric, no need to splash.

feats
1. greataxe
3. toughness
6. empower healing
9. extend (drop this for Power Attack around lvl 18)
12. ic:slashing
15. quicken
18. maximize

1. divine favor, power, and might will allow you to hit things. you an melee similar to a Pally without smites.
2. make the most of healing aura, less time spent casting heals means more time swinging.
3. mass heals centered on yourself, keeps group together and lets you stay in the front line while still pulling healing duty
4. some raids you will have to pull healbot duty, otherwise party will wipe. it's just the many raids are run in a robotic way and its nearly impossible to deaviate from established tactics

Drow could be interesting, Maybe you can make TWF work with Rapiers and weapon finese?

Nice build, I might actually follow this one on my next cleric. Except I would push 16 wis, level ups in wis, and drop PA for Heighten.

[Habreno]

EXCEPT he wanted higher levels of Divine Might. harder to do that on a dorf unless you dump wis. Which you can.
Also, for meleeing, splashing ftr/pally just make more sense. Why waste a feat on Greataxe when you can get it PLUS a feat with either of the splashes. The build you list is fine as long as you wanna be a healer. He said he doesn't.

THANK YOU! +1 twice over to you for FINALLY getting at what I want with this!

So you think for a Drow with no past lives:

STR: 18
DEX: 10
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 16

If I do that, I might go 3Pal/2Ftr/15Clr in that order. Get L1 spells at L6. Although this would push back DM3 to L20, that's 2 bonus. Not exactly game breaking but not exactly ideal either. Perhaps 2Pal/2Ftr/15Clr/Pal for level order to get DM3 at L19?

While I still recognize it being heavily tome-dependent and gear-dependent it would be doable on a first life. Just means another reroll which although isn't ideal I get 4 levels right off the bat so I don't have to bother with those levels. Probably going to end up going with the second leveling set and taking DM3 at L19. If I don't have a +2 CHA tome by then I will have the plat to acquire one.

And just to make a comment: If you want to give the thread a horrible rating, have the guts to say that you did it and say exactly why. Just because I have ideas that don't meld with what you think does not give you the right to give the thread a 1/5 star and have a valid reason for it. Just my two cents on that issue.

[Meat-Head]

THANK YOU! +1 twice over to you for FINALLY getting at what I want with this!

So you think for a Drow with no past lives:

STR: 18
DEX: 10
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 16

If I do that, I might go 3Pal/2Ftr/15Clr in that order. Get L1 spells at L6. Although this would push back DM3 to L20, that's 2 bonus. Not exactly game breaking but not exactly ideal either. Perhaps 2Pal/2Ftr/15Clr/Pal for level order to get DM3 at L19?

While I still recognize it being heavily tome-dependent and gear-dependent it would be doable on a first life. Just means another reroll which although isn't ideal I get 4 levels right off the bat so I don't have to bother with those levels. Probably going to end up going with the second leveling set and taking DM3 at L19. If I don't have a +2 CHA tome by then I will have the plat to acquire one.

And just to make a comment: If you want to give the thread a horrible rating, have the guts to say that you did it and say exactly why. Just because I have ideas that don't meld with what you think does not give you the right to give the thread a 1/5 star and have a valid reason for it. Just my two cents on that issue.

Yeah, those stats and class splits make sense to me for your goals. I think you will find that the DPS ends up being pretty dang good here as long as you use your buffs and clickie abilities well. I guess going 3 pally and 1 ftr to begin with (veteran status) will do a couple things for you:

Start with toughness feat, LOHx2 (2nd via enhancement), and establish your build as A MELEE with other ppl early.

BTW You'll have 9 feats. Here's what I recommend:

Toughness
Power Attack
Extend (need for buffs)
Two handed fighting
Emp Healing (Req for Rad Serv)
Maximize (affects your Rad Serv Aura & Bursts)
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Imp Critical: Slashing
Toughness

You COULD swap the THF and ITHF for other things (MAYBE extra turns) and/or more toughness (you'll find yourself wanting hitpoints I imagine) The other feats tho, I wouldn't mess with.

ALso, remember, as will all Multi-class builds, you will feel "behind" in some ways as you level. The char will develop more slowly in general. You won't get the raise dead spell till like level 14. Early levels might mean self healing thru LOH, Wands, and even pots. But in the end, you should be fairly beast. Just be patient.

It's too bad a lot of people disregard Divine Might on a cleric. They only associate it with pallys. That's partially probably because fewer clerics use it. But someone would FLIP if they saw a pure melee build without power attack. It only adds 5 points of damage w/o enhancements on a one hander. Divine might3 will add 6 PLUS you'll have power attack. AND Divine Might doesn't reduce your to-hit! I mean, HELLO!

Have fun!

p.s. Weapon of choice = Falchion until/unless you get SOS or eSOS.. Or a Carnifex until you get Greensteel.

[unbongwah]

I guess if getting at least Divine Might III is one of your build goals, this won't work; but have you looked at any of the heavily-multiclassed cleric 12 builds out there? E.g., ftr 2 / pal 6 / cleric 12.

[Atree]

I'm currently TRing my THF battle-cleric into a TWF battle-cleric. My build sacrifices some dps for utility (I like to disable traps) so cannot afford the Cha for DM. Even so, the dps output is nothing to scoff at. Up to the mid lvls I was leading kill counts more often than not, and even at end-game you should be able to do 50-70% of the damage a pure fighter/barb dishes.

With DP You will have full BaB regardless of splashes, and with decent gear you should be able to hit most things on a 2 even with PA on. Might have to turn off PA in epics without a bard.

I started with 14 Con, ate a +2 tome and had ~420hp at cap before crafting a GS item. Once you get e 45hp con-op you become neigh un-killable (quickened heals, aura, regening sp and turns).

If you have 17 levels of cleric there is no reason you can't raid-heal. Sp pool is a tad shallow (I had 1500sp at cap) but gear can mitigate it to a great degree (bauble, SS ring, talisman, torc, con-op) and smart use of Radiant abilities give oodles of sp-free healing as long as the rest of the party are competent.

Soloing ability is quite impressive as well. You will likely not have the fastest completion times, but running elite Sins or DA should be a cakewalk with no resource use.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I wouldn't even consider using +4 tomes on a 28pt build. By the time you reach cap you should be able to get access to at least 32pt builds so GR or TR first before using hard-to-get tomes.

[Meat-Head]

I'm currently TRing my THF battle-cleric into a TWF battle-cleric. My build sacrifices some dps for utility (I like to disable traps) so cannot afford the Cha for DM. Even so, the dps output is nothing to scoff at. Up to the mid lvls I was leading kill counts more often than not, and even at end-game you should be able to do 50-70% of the damage a pure fighter/barb dishes.

With DP You will have full BaB regardless of splashes, and with decent gear you should be able to hit most things on a 2 even with PA on. Might have to turn off PA in epics without a bard.

I started with 14 Con, ate a +2 tome and had ~420hp at cap before crafting a GS item. Once you get e 45hp con-op you become neigh un-killable (quickened heals, aura, regening sp and turns).

If you have 17 levels of cleric there is no reason you can't raid-heal. Sp pool is a tad shallow (I had 1500sp at cap) but gear can mitigate it to a great degree (bauble, SS ring, talisman, torc, con-op) and smart use of Radiant abilities give oodles of sp-free healing as long as the rest of the party are competent.

Soloing ability is quite impressive as well. You will likely not have the fastest completion times, but running elite Sins or DA should be a cakewalk with no resource use.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I wouldn't even consider using +4 tomes on a 28pt build. By the time you reach cap you should be able to get access to at least 32pt builds so GR or TR first before using hard-to-get tomes.

Agree on the +4 tome thing. On a 28 pt, it's crazy talk.

Disagree on 50% dps tho.

18 Starting STR + Divine Might3 + Divine Power + Divine Favor + Power Attack + Fighter Haste Boost.. Heck. if he splashes pally, he's even got a smite or two. What will he lack DPS wise that a fighter would have? Little bit from wep focus stuff and some some higher levels of haste boost. Right? I dunno with buffs, I'm thinking more like 85% and I wouldn't be suprised if it was higher. Consider that divine favor and Divine might will add 9 damage and +3 to hit when he's capped. I don't even think divine favor is available in a clickie.. So... That's damage a fighter doesn't even have access to.

I'm not certain about 85%+ but I would be REAL interested if someone could do the math on this.

[Habreno]

The +4s are for if you have 2+ past lives with a serious indication of NOT TRing again.


I'm definitively going to download a planner here and play around with that last level. Probably going to progress 2PAL/2FTR via vet and then go 5-19 as Cleric for those 15 levels. For Level 20 I have choices. 3rd FTR may unlock a strength enhancement, 3rd PAL may unlock some things there, and 16CLR would unlock another few spell slots and a tiny bit more SP.

[unbongwah]

What will he lack DPS wise that a fighter would have?

Assuming we're talking pure THF Kensai: +4 dmg from WS & GWS, +2 dmg from Kensai Mastery, +2 from Weap Spec enhs, +1 to crit range, +30% attack speed from Haste Boost IV, +8 STR from Power Surge, and 10% double-strike from capstone.

So, yup, virtually no difference in DPS at all.

[Meat-Head]

The +4s are for if you have 2+ past lives with a serious indication of NOT TRing again.


I'm definitively going to download a planner here and play around with that last level. Probably going to progress 2PAL/2FTR via vet and then go 5-19 as Cleric for those 15 levels. For Level 20 I have choices. 3rd FTR may unlock a strength enhancement, 3rd PAL may unlock some things there, and 16CLR would unlock another few spell slots and a tiny bit more SP.

FWIW, 3rd pally gives you the fear immunity and extra LOH via APs.

3rd fighter gives you armor/shield dex enhancements that won't matter on this build. The only other thing 3rd fighter give you is Flanking Mastery enhancement if you choose it.

Fighter STR 2 requires 6 levels of FTR. So... yeah.
Not worth it. Extra Cleric or Pally level gives you more no question.

[Habreno]

And FTR STR 1 is Level 2?

[Meat-Head]

And FTR STR 1 is Level 2?

yessir

[Habreno]

Right. Now to download a planner and run this through it.

Even without a planner, at L20 I should have the following:

35-37 STR without a +4 tome and only one STR enhancement.
18 WIS well before I need to cast 8th level spells; I would have under 1k SP but should not be a problem if my first craft is something with Conc Op.
20 CON via +6 item and +2 tome; this obviously can be pushed higher.
26 + CHA. Plenty of turns.

[Habreno]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Haberno 
Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 15 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 791 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 13
Will: 18

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             18                 26                   27
Dexterity            10                 10                   10
Constitution         12                 14                   14
Intelligence         10                 12                   12
Wisdom                8                 10                   12
Charisma             16                 18                   20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7 <- preferred for skill points. I would definitively hold on leveling to 8 until I got this.
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 8 <- Sooner the better.
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 8 <-Sooner the better.
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 8 <-Sooner the better.
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 8 <-At least by L19, but sooner the better.
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20 <-If obtained. Not that big a deal.

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               0                  0                    0
Bluff                 3                  5                    5
Concentration         1                  2                    9
Diplomacy             3                  5                    5
Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                5                 16.5                 16.5
Heal                 -1                  1                    3
Hide                  0                  0                    0
Intimidate            7                 27.5                 27.5
Jump                  4                  8                    8
Listen               -1                  1                    3
Move Silently         0                  0                    0
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                  1                    1
Search                0                  1                    3
Spot                 -1                  1                    3
Swim                  4                  8                    8
Tumble                n/a               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a               n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 2 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 5 (Cleric)
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I


Level 10 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I


Level 11 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Silver Flame Exorcism
Enhancement: Follower of the Silver Flame
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning III


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning IV


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I


Level 17 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV


Level 18 (Cleric)


Level 19 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Improved Concentration III
Enhancement: Improved Concentration IV
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II

There is something I ran through. What would you improve?

I would not take the enhancements like so, I was just working on what I knew I needed. DM1-3, Cleric PrE would all be taken ASAP. Feats I tried to order in order of obtainment. While that PAL level comes at an odd time (1,2,20) I wanted DM3 quickly. Since that's 15 levels and I wanted the attacking power of the fighter/paladin combo quickly for running quests I put it at the end; level order can be improved.

Also, the L18 Feat I totally skipped. Perhaps Power Critical if I didn't grab it already? And switch ITHF for a second Toughness?

[Atree]

Agree on the +4 tome thing. On a 28 pt, it's crazy talk.

Disagree on 50% dps tho.

18 Starting STR + Divine Might3 + Divine Power + Divine Favor + Power Attack + Fighter Haste Boost.. Heck. if he splashes pally, he's even got a smite or two. What will he lack DPS wise that a fighter would have? Little bit from wep focus stuff and some some higher levels of haste boost. Right? I dunno with buffs, I'm thinking more like 85% and I wouldn't be suprised if it was higher. Consider that divine favor and Divine might will add 9 damage and +3 to hit when he's capped. I don't even think divine favor is available in a clickie.. So... That's damage a fighter doesn't even have access to.

I'm not certain about 85%+ but I would be REAL interested if someone could do the math on this.

As was mentioned above, fighters have access to various feats and enhancements that boost to-hit as well as dmg. They can keep PA on even against epic bosses you might have to turn it off, and even then struggle to hit on a 2. Then there is gear, such as Madstone boots, that a fighter would wear most of the time but a smart cleric will avoid in most cases. Finally you have to account for the fact that in a well played party the fighter never has to stop swinging, while the cleric will still need to pause for healing, rebuffing and other spellcasting.

So even if build-wise the apriory damage potential is equal, the fighter will, in practice, dish out more.

[Ilklr]

As was mentioned above, fighters have access to various feats and enhancements that boost to-hit as well as dmg. They can keep PA on even against epic bosses you might have to turn it off, and even then struggle to hit on a 2. Then there is gear, such as Madstone boots, that a fighter would wear most of the time but a smart cleric will avoid in most cases. Finally you have to account for the fact that in a well played party the fighter never has to stop swinging, while the cleric will still need to pause for healing, rebuffing and other spellcasting.

So even if build-wise the apriory damage potential is equal, the fighter will, in practice, dish out more.

And let's see a cleric power surge. Regardless, nobody here (as far as I know) is saying clerics can't do damage. But as a pure dps build, they lag quite a bit behind, which makes it inherently a flavor build. There is nothing wrong with that, I have quite a few myself. I just want to make sure that nobody is fooling themselves about the kind of dps this character will have.

[Ilklr]

It's too bad a lot of people disregard Divine Might on a cleric. They only associate it with pallys. That's partially probably because fewer clerics use it. But someone would FLIP if they saw a pure melee build without power attack. It only adds 5 points of damage w/o enhancements on a one hander. Divine might3 will add 6 PLUS you'll have power attack. AND Divine Might doesn't reduce your to-hit! I mean, HELLO!

Is anyone saying Divine Might is a bad idea? DM is one of the things that make this viable. Still though, it seems like a lot of work (heavy tomage + possible TR + heavy gear) just to be decent dps, particularly if we're denying that this is a flavor build. If you're going to put this much work into a build, and claim it as a non-flavor dps build, why not start with a higher base dps output, and THEN tome/gear/TR?

Again, I'm not saying that this build will have horrible dps. I know it will do ok. But the truth is, if I have one dps slot available, and I see a fighter, barb, monk, sorc, and cleric applying, guess who isn't getting the slot.

I actually have some cleric flavor builds, and of course they all take divine might.

[Ilklr]

As was mentioned above, fighters have access to various feats and enhancements that boost to-hit as well as dmg. They can keep PA on even against epic bosses you might have to turn it off, and even then struggle to hit on a 2. Then there is gear, such as Madstone boots, that a fighter would wear most of the time but a smart cleric will avoid in most cases. Finally you have to account for the fact that in a well played party the fighter never has to stop swinging, while the cleric will still need to pause for healing, rebuffing and other spellcasting.

So even if build-wise the apriory damage potential is equal, the fighter will, in practice, dish out more.

Also, I think it might be a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Let's be a bit more fair and compare a cleric to a pally. Paladins twf. Point paladin. Paladins get smite. Point paladin. Paladins get divine sacrifice. Point paladin. Paladins get Holy Sword. Point paladin. Paladins get LOH. Point paladin. Clerics have more buffs. Point cleric. Paladins have martial prof. Are we still keeping score?

[Natashaelle]

While I still recognize it being heavily tome-dependent and gear-dependent it would be doable on a first life.

Yeah, pretty much all mêlée clerics are heavily tome-dependent and gear-dependent. Welcome to the grind !!

...

BTW You'll have 9 feats. Here's what I recommend:

Toughness
Power Attack
Extend (need for buffs)
Two handed fighting
Emp Healing (Req for Rad Serv)
Maximize (affects your Rad Serv Aura & Bursts)
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Imp Critical: Slashing
Toughness

Why the second toughness ? This is fairly pointless on a Cleric.

I would suggest Greater 2HF instead.

[Tumarek]

Imho 12 starting con is just a no go... 16 or 18... nothing less. As a healer you dont want to die and as battleclric you dont want to sit back -> you need every single HP you can get. Dwarfs are a far better choice. Bonus to great axe, constitution and such.

All you nice DPS wont do anything if you have to run everytime you get some aggro. And dying alot just gets us Battleclrics a bad name

You can pull of 14 const on a Fvs with all the bonus thoughness enhancements but 12 con on a drow cleric wont be enough.

So if you dont have Horc's dwarf or human... and a battlecleric with a 28 point build is not a great idea. You need all the the stats you can get, try going for something less stat intensive till you get the 32.

Also mass heal is your friend... a cleric lower then 17 will be hard to pull off... imho.