DDO Casters Can't Kite (but I still love you)

[Sarisa]

You can set up webs near, but not in, a firewall and mobs can be held and burn.

I personally lucked into a cheap Skyvault shield, so I tend to light a firewall or two and turtle up in it if the mobs don't hit too hard. Much more efficient for the group.

If the mobs hit hard, circle kite as mentioned, and near the melees so they can stand and swing.

My opinion is that at most of the end game, the arcane SHOULD be the one with most of the aggro, it saves everyone resources and things die faster.

[tgu]

I too, agree that there is a lot of misinterpretation of expectations and goals of a caster.

A caster should not be forced to wait for the melee to go and then wait several seconds just to see their job finally made important.

With that said, I think:

*A caster should circle kite (it works)
*A ranger will often times mess up kiting even more, I've seen some dragging mobs around for 1+ minute
*A melee should have no expectations for a caster to be a sit back and wait caster
*Lastly, think of zerging. The fastest xp isn't playing safe and going slow, it's burning mobs and moving on.

@ the OP, you had some points and I don't mean to take away from that. But it seems you got put up with a group of 1-2 casters in which they really didn't know how to play, then came on the forum to bias all casters. Are we going to bias all melee next?

Here is Irony--

If your going to get upset at me about this please search my username and look at my previous post (ages ago) about melee's helping out the casters.

A hell of a lot of DDO casters, especially nukers, especially at mid-level, have no sense of strategy in some respects. The following is elementary in any mmo I've ever played.

Search your forum name because you make a controversial post and then go on to blast DDO casters as if they are pretty much some of the worst in any MMO? But wait...

Meh. I cast a firewall in the biggest bunch of mobs I can find. If the melee goes and chases something off into a corner, I Finger it to remind them that 1: they should fight in the firewall, and 2: I brought them as boss beaters, not crowd control.

Pay attention people - that is how you troll.

So you basically troll, know that some people will think you are trolling....then a guy comes in and makes a pretty sound argument and you try to convince us he's the troll? I don't get it. Maybe next post you can say "DDO melee users are dumb...they chase mobs, break CC, and aren't all that useful outside of bosses."

[varusso]

If your going to get upset at me about this please search my username and look at my previous post (ages ago) about melee's helping out the casters.

A hell of a lot of DDO casters, especially nukers, especially at mid-level, have no sense of strategy in some respects. The following is elementary in any mmo I've ever played.

1. Kite towards the melees! They are swinging their hearts out, run straight through them, put the mob within striking range, and there's a good chance they'll just take the agro. Once they get it, don't throw a spell and take agro again and run away.

2. Don't spread aggro This is a chronic problem when people get fireball and firewall (hey and what about acid blast? I'd love to see some more acid blasts). When me and my sword swinging buddies charge in and you throw a fireball / firewall / aoe spell at them from behind, they charge [/u]you[u]. They run straight past us, so we can (a) turn around and chase them or (b) keep moving and hit their casters, keeping in mind that their melees are now chopping on you. And neither is a good option, because whatever you we do, you are going to run away and we are going to end up chasing them.

Seriously, on nearly every quest I end up running after an AI melee who is running after a caster.

3. Shoot at ME! If you wait, me and the other sword swingers will charge in and hit the melees who will barely have time to move before we're wailing on them. We take two steps and we're into their casters WITH their melees grouped up. Time for Fireball/Firewall/AOE. NUKE EM. If it's a trash mob, wait. If we aren't taking any damage, don't throw it. Wait til we need you and make it a NUKE. Maximise it, Empower it, get gear whatever you need to do it. Whatever you throw should clear the room, and it will, if you wait.

You know, if you melees would quit charging in, we could charm one of the mobs BEFORE they aggro you, resulting in all of the nearby mobs immediately aggroing THAT mob, grouping up nicely for a web/mass hold/etc, followed by auto-crits by the meless, and a nicely placed firewall/ice storm, resulting in alot of dead mobs and ZERO healing on the party....and maybe one charmed mob remaining to be released and ***pwnt.

If you chase a mob that is being kited, you are a fool. 'If you kite it, you fight it.' I laugh my ass off watching a group of melees that insist on chasing a bunch of melee mobs i am kiting through my firewalls, instead of letting me handle it. Go kill the casters and archers that WONT chase me. They stand still, making them ideal food for melees. Or pick one of the mobs that is stuck in my web...or one of the ones i nicely held for you.

There are casters in this game that need a serious education in the 'right' way to aggro-kite mobs. But there are even MORE melees who need it.

[Westerner]

Tips for Melees Annoyed by Kiting Casters:

1) Stand still in the Firewall/Webs/Glitterdust/Ice Storm/Dancing Ball. Advanced melees can try forming a line.

2) Wait for caster to bring you the melee mobs.

3) Beat and be happy.

[Impaqt]

If your going to get upset at me about this please search my username and look at my previous post (ages ago) about melee's helping out the casters.

A hell of a lot of DDO casters, especially nukers, especially at mid-level, have no sense of strategy in some respects. The following is elementary in any mmo I've ever played.

1. Kite towards the melees! They are swinging their hearts out, run straight through them, put the mob within striking range, and there's a good chance they'll just take the agro. Once they get it, don't throw a spell and take agro again and run away.

2. Don't spread aggro This is a chronic problem when people get fireball and firewall (hey and what about acid blast? I'd love to see some more acid blasts). When me and my sword swinging buddies charge in and you throw a fireball / firewall / aoe spell at them from behind, they charge [/u]you[u]. They run straight past us, so we can (a) turn around and chase them or (b) keep moving and hit their casters, keeping in mind that their melees are now chopping on you. And neither is a good option, because whatever you we do, you are going to run away and we are going to end up chasing them.

Seriously, on nearly every quest I end up running after an AI melee who is running after a caster.

3. Shoot at ME! If you wait, me and the other sword swingers will charge in and hit the melees who will barely have time to move before we're wailing on them. We take two steps and we're into their casters WITH their melees grouped up. Time for Fireball/Firewall/AOE. NUKE EM. If it's a trash mob, wait. If we aren't taking any damage, don't throw it. Wait til we need you and make it a NUKE. Maximise it, Empower it, get gear whatever you need to do it. Whatever you throw should clear the room, and it will, if you wait.

Stop chasing them. Let them Die. Its the only way they will learn.

[Alerax]

Stuck at work, nothing to do, DDO Forums, lol.

I melee, I Rogue. I stand in a FW and wish that that caster would stop kiting that mob around a mile and a half circle with 3 FW spaced all over hell and back.

on the other hand, ive seen the Melees make a mess out of perfect set ups.

tbh always a good laugh when you hear things like...

*Ding* "-***..." - Melee

"there were 5 FW right here, why you in a corner dead?" - Arcane

"ffs, im not your wet nurse..." - Poor Cleric XD

Melees agree, FW is a good thing and wont leave marks on your new outfits.
Arcanes agree, Melees are dumb

LOL, sorry, my 2cp

[Hendrik]

Stop chasing them. Let them Die. Its the only way they will learn.

Lots of aggro + Diplo = hillarity for me.

[varusso]

Stop chasing them. Let them Die. Its the only way they will learn.

Thats just silly. There is nothing for them to 'learn'. At mid levels this IS the correct tactic for a mage. Drop firewall (2 in an X pattern for large groups) and do your best Benny Hill imitation, kiting them around in the 'wings' of the firewall(s). Melees stand in the center and just swing--dont bother targeting, just hold attack. Whatever runs in front of you trying to catch the mage, you will hit. If there are casters/archers that are NOT in the firewall and NOT chasing the mage, go beat on them. If the mages is really smart, there is a web in those firewalls, holding some of the mobs still. You can also go beat on them. This also avoids the whole issue another poster described, with the mage dropping a bunch of FWs and kiting the mobs halfway across the zone and back--not to mention its a waste of SP

All in all, I would personally rather rage/haste, drop a charm/web, and let the melees pwn stuff. But when firewalls are called for, or speed up the process, its silly to complain about the mage doing their job.

[Bunker]

Did they change fire destroying webs? Otherwise, it's a horrible combo. If you want web, use icestorm instead. Actually even without firewall detroying web, this combo is a better save me now spell as between the CC and slowdown, any half decent melee should be able to save your sorry squishy arse.

Yup, fire destroys webs, but it still works. Just have to do it right.

[varusso]

You can set up webs near, but not in, a firewall and mobs can be held and burn.

I personally lucked into a cheap Skyvault shield, so I tend to light a firewall or two and turtle up in it if the mobs don't hit too hard. Much more efficient for the group.

If the mobs hit hard, circle kite as mentioned, and near the melees so they can stand and swing.

My opinion is that at most of the end game, the arcane SHOULD be the one with most of the aggro, it saves everyone resources and things die faster.

Incorrect. Firewall SHOULD burn web, but it doesnt. YOu can drop a web and firewall right on top of each other, and they work just fine. FireBALL, on the other hand (along with burning hands, flamestrike, and the hellhound's firebreath) DO destroy web. Probably some other AEO fire effects too (like the monk ability that mimics burning hands) that I am leaving out.

But FW + web is a HUGELY effective combo. I use it constantly, and since web hits just about everything you would WANT to throw a FW on...yah, win win.

[Westerner]

How about FW + Solid Fog? Is that an effective combo?

[varusso]

How about FW + Solid Fog? Is that an effective combo?

*shrug* I dont use it. Only time I see it being used with any real consistency is vs the Hound...which I DONT want aggro :P I generally avoid most of the site-obscuring spells, unless they are specifically called for in a given situation. The extra graphics issues, as well as the semi-blocked real vision simply are not worth it.

[MindCake]

Stop chasing them. Let them Die. Its the only way they will learn.

*confused* but Mobs don't learn, they die and are replaced with new ones...

j/k. I know you meant the arcane will die and learn. But my experience is sorta different, namely: if there is an arcane kiting a bunch of mobs around a firewall, the mobs are about to die - if the caster has aggro, it means they're not immune, so they're getting damaged every 2 seconds.
Since the caster is running with exp.retreat or haste and jumping, the mobs will likely only score a handful of hits. In fact, enemy archers are the most annoying, go kill them (unless they're in the FW too).

I'm not convinced by the proposed tactic of shield blocking in the middle. I mean, arcane's AC won't do a thing anyways, a bit of DR added to stone skin will help at first, but with the mobs walloping on them, they'll soon lose that stone skin, aid, false life and the other temporary HP they may have.

TBH, I haven't actually tried that, and when a cleric requested my wizard to do just that, I said "Okay.", but then the rest of the party protested I should continue doing what I was doing, so, welp, I never actually tried it.


Anyways, I'm sure there arcanes out there that are bad at kiting. But I'd say melees are much worse. I'm quite sure this is correct at least in 7-mid teens level range. Srsly, most of the time they seem hell bent on keeping the mobs AWAY from the FW. I'm really sad when my ranger/rogue is the only one in the party luring stuff into the fire and combining forces to bring individual targets down faster. And it happens more often than not.

[Sarisa]

I'm not convinced by the proposed tactic of shield blocking in the middle. I mean, arcane's AC won't do a thing anyways, a bit of DR added to stone skin will help at first, but with the mobs walloping on them, they'll soon lose that stone skin, aid, false life and the other temporary HP they may have.

Works fine up through hard Vale. I was taking 0-2 damage per hit with a Skyvault (which isn't even that much DR) against most mobs.

[rtayek]

hi, newbie here. was reading this thread. can someone explain the terms?

i'm guessing that aoe=area of effect?

how about kite?

thanks

[Dhalgren]

hi, newbie here. was reading this thread. can someone explain the terms?

i'm guessing that aoe=area of effect?

Yup.

how about kite?

thanks

Kiting is when you grab aggro (get the mobs' attention so they come after you) and then run around, leading them on a chase. If you set up a firewall or two first then you can lead a train of baddies through the flames repeatedly until nice and crispy.

Just don't lead them away from the firewalls or melees. Then again, if you run off by yourself away from the party, they might not appreciate if you come screaming back with half the dungeon on your heels.

I've found this useful: http://ddowiki.com/page/Glossary

[Lycurgus]

Running from mobs like a frightened schoolgirl while skipping like a bunny (aka "kiting") is an undignified practice for an arcane and is to be strenuously avoided, only to be performed when well outside of the sight of melee and even then only under the direst of circumstances.

[Bodic]

did Disco Inferno die or something that has been a single greats tactic for a wiz.

Edit: Until U9 hits live that is

[Dhalgren]

Running from mobs like a frightened schoolgirl while skipping like a bunny (aka "kiting") is an undignified practice for an arcane and is to be strenuously avoided, only to be performed when well outside of the sight of melee and even then only under the direst of circumstances.

To be honest I kind of agree. I'd just learned how to kite when I decided to try arch mage. Now have a lot more fun webbing some stuff and letting a hireling beat it down, or just charming something and laughing while I watch the mobs beat each other down while I sit back and toss in Maximised and Empowered 1 SP Magic Missiles and Arcane Bolts. Feels much more refined. And I like to be comfortable with a variety of things; I like having at least one decent spell not on cooldown at all times. My blue bar lasts a lot longer, too. I love knowing there's a fresh shrine a few rooms back if I need it.

If I get surrounded and start taking damage I have found that one Maxed and Empowered Fireball aimed at my feet can clear the area fairly well.

Really I haven't done a ton of grouping yet so I don't have a huge amount of insight into that side of it. My hirelings don't care how long I take, or how I cackle while doing it.

[Madryoch]

Thing's ain't the way u described em ... do u want to make things work the way u are suggesting ? get intimidate high enough to intimidate the mobs ... if u don't have here as in most other games when u play without someone tanking whoever deals the highest damage gets the aggro ... so why don't u intimidate mobs and let the caster nuke to their hearts content ... and believe me

instead of having u attaking multiple mobs at the same time if in 2 seconds i can kill all on low lvls i ll still prefer to shoot two fireballs and be done with them than expect any melee who quite often are nubs to deal with the problem ... especially when i cast a firewall and they will move the mob away so the mob won't die by firewall so they will have more kills than what they usually get...

At low lvls it is way better if a caster does what annoys u ... at higher lvls and hard hitting mobs ... well for that u get mass hold where melee can hit and u don't have to worry about a caster dpsing a lot ...