DDO Casters Can't Kite (but I still love you)

[SkullJug]

If your going to get upset at me about this please search my username and look at my previous post (ages ago) about melee's helping out the casters.

A hell of a lot of DDO casters, especially nukers, especially at mid-level, have no sense of strategy in some respects. The following is elementary in any mmo I've ever played.

1. Kite towards the melees! They are swinging their hearts out, run straight through them, put the mob within striking range, and there's a good chance they'll just take the agro. Once they get it, don't throw a spell and take agro again and run away.

2. Don't spread aggro This is a chronic problem when people get fireball and firewall (hey and what about acid blast? I'd love to see some more acid blasts). When me and my sword swinging buddies charge in and you throw a fireball / firewall / aoe spell at them from behind, they charge [/u]you[u]. They run straight past us, so we can (a) turn around and chase them or (b) keep moving and hit their casters, keeping in mind that their melees are now chopping on you. And neither is a good option, because whatever you we do, you are going to run away and we are going to end up chasing them.

Seriously, on nearly every quest I end up running after an AI melee who is running after a caster.

3. Shoot at ME! If you wait, me and the other sword swingers will charge in and hit the melees who will barely have time to move before we're wailing on them. We take two steps and we're into their casters WITH their melees grouped up. Time for Fireball/Firewall/AOE. NUKE EM. If it's a trash mob, wait. If we aren't taking any damage, don't throw it. Wait til we need you and make it a NUKE. Maximise it, Empower it, get gear whatever you need to do it. Whatever you throw should clear the room, and it will, if you wait.

[ColdNapalm]

Am I honestly the only caster that runs to a melee with aggro and just block next to them?!? With buffs up, you should be okay for the few seconds to have the melee pull the aggro off. Otherwise, you build your caster too squishy.

On a side note...if I cast a firewall/icestorm...that is where the melee should STAY until everything is dead. I hate tossing a firewall and the melee goes running off 3 feet away out of the range of the firewall to start their pounding. If they are going after a painful archer or caster I can see that...but no, they wanna step away from the firewall so...I have no idea why....

[stille_nacht]

happens really commonly actually, whoever you are playing with is doing it wrong. Many casters either A; kite in and out of fw, or B: kite towards melee

not many shield block in my experience tho

[heyytoi]

If your going to get upset at me about this please search my username and look at my previous post (ages ago) about melee's helping out the casters.

A hell of a lot of DDO casters, especially nukers, especially at mid-level, have no sense of strategy in some respects. The following is elementary in any mmo I've ever played.

1. Kite towards the melees! They are swinging their hearts out, run straight through them, put the mob within striking range, and there's a good chance they'll just take the agro. Once they get it, don't throw a spell and take agro again and run away.

2. Don't spread aggro This is a chronic problem when people get fireball and firewall (hey and what about acid blast? I'd love to see some more acid blasts). When me and my sword swinging buddies charge in and you throw a fireball / firewall / aoe spell at them from behind, they charge [/u]you[u]. They run straight past us, so we can (a) turn around and chase them or (b) keep moving and hit their casters, keeping in mind that their melees are now chopping on you. And neither is a good option, because whatever you we do, you are going to run away and we are going to end up chasing them.

Seriously, on nearly every quest I end up running after an AI melee who is running after a caster.

3. Shoot at ME! If you wait, me and the other sword swingers will charge in and hit the melees who will barely have time to move before we're wailing on them. We take two steps and we're into their casters WITH their melees grouped up. Time for Fireball/Firewall/AOE. NUKE EM. If it's a trash mob, wait. If we aren't taking any damage, don't throw it. Wait til we need you and make it a NUKE. Maximise it, Empower it, get gear whatever you need to do it. Whatever you throw should clear the room, and it will, if you wait.

So you can steal my kills???

AH!! Good one.

[Ashbinder]

Meh. I cast a firewall in the biggest bunch of mobs I can find. If the melee goes and chases something off into a corner, I Finger it to remind them that 1: they should fight in the firewall, and 2: I brought them as boss beaters, not crowd control.

[SkullJug]

So you can steal my kills???

AH!! Good one.

And therein of course, lies the problem.


Oh and I agree about people not fighting in firewalls, it's nuts. I would personally never leave their sweet embrace if didn't have to.

Give me a haste long enough and a firm firewall on which to stand and I will move the earth

[Deathlos]

Im one of the ones that stand in the firewall(s) and just block, wishing my tanks had enough intimi to get em off me,
This is done better if the caster is WF so he can heal himself.

And later levels a good caster is all about CC and insta-kills, so dont worry.

[SkullJug]

Meh. I cast a firewall in the biggest bunch of mobs I can find. If the melee goes and chases something off into a corner, I Finger it to remind them that 1: they should fight in the firewall, and 2: I brought them as boss beaters, not crowd control.

Pay attention people - that is how you troll.

[Paleus]

This type of advice of course goes both ways

Imaginary Caster Response:

1) Stand in the firewall or don't chase mobs out of it. - For some reason while goofing around in the cove I sometimes pugged with melees that must have thought having undead roasting in firewall was a bad idea and did their darnedest to push and drag them out of it.

2) Beat on the mobs that haven't been neutralized. - If you see two mobs, one which the caster neutralized with otto's irresistable dance and the other still moving, which should you attack first? If you said the still moving one then you are apparently not playing with the same playbook I saw others using.

3) Friends that play together win together. - If you want an area of affect buff have the decency to be moving with the group instead of off by yourself. The needs of five different people wanting haste is better met when those people are together instead of each needing five individual casts.

Anyway, this isnt to neg on your list, I think its just both sides of many pugs, melees and casters, are still playing like they will somehow win DDO by having highest unassisted kill count as opposed to moving as a swarm ganking mobs together.

PS: Above post about FOD-kills ftw. As many of you melees have long suspected, arcanes are actually usually just sitting around doing nothing as they wait until they see you pull a mob's health down to about a quarter. That's when they finger it.

[Ashbinder]

Heh, you might question my methods, but you can't dispute my results.

[voodoogroves]

Nothing drives me more batty in the Cove when I'm cooking some boss (like Jack) in a wall of fire and instead of running the line and keeping it clear, people want to jump on.

And the dude dancing in the wall of fire? LEAVE HIM, he's toast.



I actually stopped using my wizard and am using my sorc more to farm the event because he's got intimidate.


OP: Sorry about your experience; I will disagree and tell you that once the arcanes get wall of fire and once the divines get blade barrier, they can absolutely control aggro and the flow of battle across multiple targets much more easily than a melee dude. That's leading w/ the wall of fire or blade barrier ... and against your point #3 ... but your other points are even more valid. The caster needs to know what they are doing and keep the critters cooking, kiting and being hit by the melee if you want it done fast.

A bad arcane is like a bad archer though; makes everyone chase and eventually pick up their soulstone.

[SkullJug]

Like I said, don't get offended. I'm not saying melees are perfect and I'm definately not saying that those casters that can control agro are doing the wrong thing.

I just think that a LOT of casters in eberron could do well with that advice.

[sirgog]

In content where mobs don't hit hard (most non-epic content), I prefer to cast a Firewall and turtle inside it. Less effort, and the mobs proc any SP regen you might happen to have. Plus, the mobs are conveniently held still for the melees.

Hard hitting foes are different. There, I kite by circle strafing around them.

[Saravis]

Nothing drives me more batty in the Cove when I'm cooking some boss (like Jack) in a wall of fire and instead of running the line and keeping it clear, people want to jump on.

Oh so true, I can't count how many times I tell people that I got Jack and to go do something else, but no they keep wailing away at him doing insignificant damage compared to my stack of 5+ firewalls that all proc. This is made even more amusing by the fact that Jack does jack squat for damage.

Anyway as to the topic, I do as the situation dictates, and that's all there is to it.

[TheDjinnFor]

The reality is this: casters kiting 5 mobs through 2/3 firewalls do tons more DPS than the melees will chasing the monsters around through them.

On the other hand, a group of melees beating on stationary mobs do tons more DPS than the casters will if they throw a firewall into the mix.

In short, kiting casters > kiting melees; non-kiting casters < non-kiting melees. When a caster starts kiting, they reduce the DPS of the melees. When the melees start fighting they reduce the DPS of the casters.

Solution? Split into two different groups: melees on one side and kiting casters on the other. If that's not a viable option, have melees go after the casters/ranged or otherwise stationary mobs while the casters take on the mobile melees who will follow them around. Work together, not against each other.

Casters, if a melee is fighting a group of mobs, don't pull aggro. Melees, if a caster is kiting a group of mobs, don't pull aggro. (Unless of course either side asks for help.)

[FlyingTurtle]

I prefer a simpler rule:

Kill your own aggro.

Works for casters and melees alike, and in any situation, solo or group. If you can't chew it don't bite it off.

[arcticwolf666]

Am I honestly the only caster that runs to a melee with aggro and just block next to them?!? With buffs up, you should be okay for the few seconds to have the melee pull the aggro off. Otherwise, you build your caster too squishy.

On a side note...if I cast a firewall/icestorm...that is where the melee should STAY until everything is dead. I hate tossing a firewall and the melee goes running off 3 feet away out of the range of the firewall to start their pounding. If they are going after a painful archer or caster I can see that...but no, they wanna step away from the firewall so...I have no idea why....

QFT! WF arcanes with high Con and repair spells can easily block, heal and allow the melee to grab aggro.

[tinyelvis]

This all depends on the quality of the melee and the quality of the caster. Neither group can really rely on getting any quality form the opposing group in todays PUG.

The truth is, a good caster at any non epic level will kill a trash mob with AOE in one or two shots. In elite quests at level it may take three. Now, that is a good well spec'd caster at any non epic level. The only thing that changes is the spell used.

A good caster likes to therefore have tons of stuff packed together for the shot. Now, the conflict that can occur is that many melee like to fight things one at a time and stay close to their baby sitter. This for an offensive caster can be a nightmare and very inefficient. Further, many melee if not almost all favor DPS over AC or intimidate. I am not saying this is bad, I am just saying.

So, a good caster will pull tons of mobs and use his AOE to kill in 1 to 4 seconds typically. This is good for everyone. Less resources, less deaths and things go fast. The biggest problem i have in pug groups is melee messing up the aggro so I have to spend more spell points killing things.

Now OP, I feel your pain. Nothing is worse than a poor caster who does not know how to buff his spells, manage his aggro, or not die regularly. However, a better approach to questing would be for melee to understand how to pull tons of stuff. Intimidate it to one of them who can take the damage, so that the real damage dealer could concentrate on killing it. Be that the melee or caster. This is almost never seen.

Failing that, I quote a very good caster of the past,

...... take off, grab the aggro, kill it before the melee has a chance to mess up the situation.

[Bunker]

Fireball and run to melee.

What is that I ask?

Arcanes out there I say do not pay attention to the melee in your party. But rather concentrate on your abilities.

EI: Learn what arcanes can do. For instance, using Wall of Fire and Web together. Drawing the aggro of all trash mobs with Wall of Fire, and placing a Web near by, thus traping the mobs that have not perished, allowing those slow (non Intim) melee to clean up the mess.

-Bunk

P.S. This is just one of many combinations that allow Arcanes to control. Just take a look at your spellbook. Don't rely on the melee to save you, but instead save yourself.

[ColdNapalm]

Fireball and run to melee.

What is that I ask?

Arcanes out there I say do not pay attention to the melee in your party. But rather concentrate on your abilities.

EI: Learn what arcanes can do. For instance, using Wall of Fire and Web together. Drawing the aggro of all trash mobs with Wall of Fire, and placing a Web near by, thus traping the mobs that have not perished, allowing those slow (non Intim) melee to clean up the mess.

-Bunk

P.S. This is just one of many combinations that allow Arcanes to control. Just take a look at your spellbook. Don't rely on the melee to save you, but instead save yourself.

Did they change fire destroying webs? Otherwise, it's a horrible combo. If you want web, use icestorm instead. Actually even without firewall detroying web, this combo is a better save me now spell as between the CC and slowdown, any half decent melee should be able to save your sorry squishy arse.