Helplessness change, Reworking Greensteel

[NaturalHazard]

Really? You're going to assume that not a single player that was interested in epic went out and bought metalline of PG or holy silver or something like that on the AH to break DR on bosses and then went straight to picks for epic? That would be a very silly assumption. Our guild leader TRed his main from a bard to a wizard specifically to use mass holds (with the bard past life bonus) and green steel heavy picks for epic.

I actually didnt make minII weapons first, hp item was piority then litII I was actually going to craft earth grab picks, I already made one blank, thank goodness i didnt get around to putting earthgrab on it, saved me some larges. I got holy burst silver, good enough for harry, suulo, tod normal.

[PopeJual]

Really? You're going to assume that not a single player that was interested in epic went out and bought metalline of PG or holy silver or something like that on the AH to break DR on bosses and then went straight to picks for epic? That would be a very silly assumption. Our guild leader TRed his main from a bard to a wizard specifically to use mass holds (with the bard past life bonus) and green steel heavy picks for epic.

It's going to be even worse for that Wizard since Helpless mobs won't just lose their Autocrit status, they also won't be auto-hit, either. I'm sure that Purgatory will claim that I'm wrong, but Eladrin was actually specific in that as well...

Helpless mobs lose their Dex modifier to AC and suffer an additional -4 to AC on top of that, but they aren't auto-hit anymore.


The Dev Tracker link at the top of the DDO forums page is chock full of new information from Eladrin this past week.

[t0r012]

From my understanding there have been changes to GS weapons in the past that made some wepons worthless and they didn't allow deconstruction then.

I don't expect they will offer deconstruction now just for unrelated changes to epic just because some people used resources in game to take advantage of an OP mechanic.

[Purgatory]

It's going to be even worse for that Wizard since Helpless mobs won't just lose their Autocrit status, they also won't be auto-hit, either. I'm sure that Purgatory will claim that I'm wrong, but Eladrin was actually specific in that as well...

Helpless mobs lose their Dex modifier to AC and suffer an additional -4 to AC on top of that, but they aren't auto-hit anymore.


The Dev Tracker link at the top of the DDO forums page is chock full of new information from Eladrin this past week.

not claiming your wrong but you dont know that they wont be auto hit or auto crit from mass hold...

So your not right either untell first its been tested or documented.
everthing one's claime is based off of a few text lines and lets be honest devs are not all that accurate about giving information or that clear on exactly how things work. Why because there so many people involved in the coding and development no one know exactly how everything is coded/ works and are going off that they are told and how they interpited it.

Any ways even if they are not auto hit on a 2... you will still get flanking bonus and a sneak attack item will give u +5 to hit, gh give +4 they lose ton of ac ontop of that. and its not all that hard to sport a 24-26 str on a caster with out giving up much at all wich ofcourse will help out in your dps department aswell.

Relax calm down, test, confirm, and adjust...

Me im not to worried about it. I'll adjust just fine no matter how it plays out and I'll find what works for me, its expected. I only hope its just not too much easier then before.

[Angelus_dead]

everthing one's claime is based off of a few text lines and lets be honest devs are not all that accurate about giving information or that clear on exactly how things work.

The devs tell us that Mass Hold will no longer grant autocrits. If you think they might be lying, then there's really nothing to have a discussion about.

To consider the topic at all requires the starting assumption that the devs aren't totally screwing around with fake announcements (which is only likely to happen on April 1)

[Calebro]

Purg, stop arguing what was and what was not said until you follow the lnk and read the post.

Hows about some details? All we have now is speculation. Current trends show we think it will stop auto-crits, but instead give a +50% to all incoming damage on the mob.

Which I can see why, if you're boosting SA by 50% would be a concern. My assassin is already a DPS nightmare. Increasing that 50% would be crazy.

Assuming it's 50%.

And assuming thats how it works.

That's a pretty good assumption. A very good one.

* Monsters that are helpless take 50% additional damage from all sources, including normal attacks, spells, or environmental effects (before damage reduction is applied). A critical hit on a helpless monster will deal 50% additional critical damage as expected.
* Players that are helpless take additional damage based on the dungeon difficulty:
* Solo/Casual: +5%
* Normal: +10%
* Hard: +15%
* Elite: +20%
* Epic: +25%
* Creatures that are helpless are denied their dexterity bonus to armor class, and suffer an additional -4 penalty to armor class.

Did Eladrin flat out specifically SAY that it would stop auto-crits?
No.

Can we read it contextually to come to that understanding?
Yes.

[toughguyjoe]

This thread is awesome.

Keep chugging Purgatory, you'll hit wonderland soon!

[PopeJual]

because there so many people involved in the coding and development no one know exactly how everything is coded/ works and are going off that they are told and how they interpited it.

Most individual developers don't need to know how everything is coded and how everything should work and shouldn't be expected to know that, but the lead developer and the design team had better know how everything is supposed to work or the code will turn into a colossal train wreck pretty quickly.

Any ways even if they are not auto hit on a 2... you will still get flanking bonus and a sneak attack item will give u +5 to hit, gh give +4 they lose ton of ac ontop of that. and its not all that hard to sport a 24-26 str on a caster with out giving up much at all wich ofcourse will help out in your dps department aswell.

BAB +10
Flanking +2
26 Strength +8
GH +4
Luck +2
+4 Helpless enemy status
+?? lost enemy dex bonus from Helpless status
Sneak Attack +5
Total = 35 +??

That's enough to hit some trash. It's not even close to enough to hit other trash and it's certainly not enough to hit some of the bosses.

I can be okay with that since the idea of Wizards wading into combat with a Heavy Pick after casting Mass Hold is a little... odd. Gandalf was closer to a FvS than a Wizard. Add in the fact that nuking will be made significantly more effective and we're looking at a significant rebalancing, but not a pure nerf. It's entirely possible that that a Wizard or Sorcerer that devotes significant effort and resources to close combat will still be able to do some significant damage with melee weapons to a Helpless enemy (although certainly not anywhere close to what a real melee class can do). It will obviously take a significantly higher investment in close combat abilities to make that happen after U9, however.

Relax calm down, test, confirm, and adjust...

Me im not to worried about it. I'll adjust just fine no matter how it plays out and I'll find what works for me, its expected. I only hope its just not too much easier then before.

I really don't see many people flying off the handle about the upcoming changes. I'm certainly not rooting through the basement to find my torches and pickforks. People actually seem to be a lot calmer about this than they were with the rebalancing that came last Spring even though this actually looks to me like it will be a bigger change than that one.. No one really knows how effective the rebalancing will be and which classes and which individual characters will be winners and losers, but there really shouldn't be any arguing about the changes that we know are coming. If Eladrin has already announced that something is coming, then it's pretty much a done deal.

Obvious implications
- Heavy Picks are no longer the must-have weapons and will be pretty much left to Heavy Pick specced Kensai III Fighters. They're not a terrible weapon, but there's better to be had *cough*Khopesh*cough*.
- Rogues with Sneak Attacks and folks with high crit range x2 weapons will end up doing significantly more compared to the Heavy Picks and Greataxes after U9 than before. This is not a bad thing.
- Nuking will be significantly more effective after U9 than before. Will that "significantly more" be enough to make them useable in Epics and high level content in general? Time will tell.
- Mass Hold + beatdown will no longer be the only tactic used in Epic quests. This is not a bad thing. Mass Hold + beatdown may or may not be an effective tactic at all once U9 rolls out because of the reduced effect that the Helpless state will offer as well as the added Spell Resistance check that is being put on Mass Hold Monster.
-The new crafting system may or may not have a plat sink included as part of the crafting process, but it will at least slow the introduction of new plat into the game because people will be grinding up their vendor trash weapons in order to get components instead of just selling those weapons to the vendors. Will it be enough of a change to actually have a significant effect on the economy as a whole? Time will tell.

[unfiguroutable]

That doesnt say anything ...sky is falling??? LMAO no i think not its sounds to me the game just got super easyier... lol

I can't say what I want to say without geting moderated. This statement is proof of your ignorance. You should leave this convo till you are more educated about the issues.

[Purgatory]

I can't say what I want to say without geting moderated. This statement is proof of your ignorance. You should leave this convo till you are more educated about the issues.

ya its PROOF! lmao lemmings

[Purgatory]

The devs tell us that Mass Hold will no longer grant autocrits. If you think they might be lying, then there's really nothing to have a discussion about.

To consider the topic at all requires the starting assumption that the devs aren't totally screwing around with fake announcements (which is only likely to happen on April 1)

show me the post where it says that.

there is none....

[Purgatory]

Purg, stop arguing what was and what was not said until you follow the lnk and read the post.


Did Eladrin flat out specifically SAY that it would stop auto-crits?
No.

Can we read it contextually to come to that understanding?
Yes.

Ive' read it.... not once did he say it he was 100% correct on his assumption all he said was its a good assumption.....


i gues good assumption = absolute law around here lmao

Untell a dev specificaly says all current auto-crit situation in game are going to be changed from auto crit to 50% increase of all incoming damage im not gona assume that what it means. or untell Its been tested and proven that what is being said...


you can assume all you want.... interprit and predict all you want... cry and moan that a "good assumption" ruined your builds and your weapons are useless all you want.

untell i see it and test it first hand im not going to care. and then I'll just adjust to it...

[PopeJual]

untell i see it and test it first hand im not going to care. and then I'll just adjust to it...

If you don't care, then why are you posting?

I believe that everyone in this thread is taking the forecast changes with a proverbial grain of salt, but if you're going to have a discussion about possible implications of expected changes, then it kind of helps to actually look at what the expected changes are rather than just burying your head in the sand, fingers in ears, shouting "la la la I can't hear you and I'm going to do my own testing."

If you don't want to speculate about possible implications of expected changes, that's fine. I have to ask why you're in a thread with exactly that purpose, though.

[Purgatory]

If you don't care, then why are you posting?

what? you showed me! god job you must be right LMAO

clearly since this all you got, you cant back anything you say...

that is exactly my point. you cant back up your assumption. why? because they are assumptions lmao


next thing you know someone going to point out my spelling and grammer to prove there point....

anything and everything but facts becuase well there are none

[Purgatory]

BAB +10
Flanking +2
26 Strength +8
GH +4
Luck +2
+4 Helpless enemy status
+?? lost enemy dex bonus from Helpless status
Sneak Attack +5
Total = 35 +??

here let me help your math out a bit

no +4 helpelss enenmy status
no + lost of enemy dex bonus

just my normal every day buffs, rage, haste, abishi cookie set for +4 int (note this doesnt help my to hit bonus), gh

oand ship buffs

did i mention i got power attack on too...

+34 to hit on first attack with power attack on it be +35 if i had my +2 exp str ring on opps....



one attack from behind with +5 sneak attack on my helm
dice roll is on the char sheet...

this not hard to achieve at all

[unfiguroutable]

unless the above screenie was taken on the test server it has zero bearing on this convo.

[Purgatory]

unless the above screenie was taken on the test server it has zero bearing on this convo.

It has everything to do with the convo about the question of caster not being able to hit helpless mobs in epic..

And clearifying the inability to figure out how a caster could get a +35 to hit... witch doesnt include debuffs
while sporting power attack... so caster can get +40 to hit with out power attack on that all before debuff effects


doesnt need to be on a test server to figure out what a caster to hit can be.....



I'm sorry if this game is overly difficult for some of you. to me it fairly simple and easy...

this how things work.... you make a statement and you back it up with facts like i have... assumtions are not facts.

fact is casters that used a hvy pick for melee dps on held mobs if they happen to loose the auto hit (thisis just some people assumption and not a proven fact yet)
will still be able to use hvy pick for melee dps on held mobs...unless they dumped the str for some odd reason...then why where they useing hvy picks and not a dream spliter anyways lmao

[Purgatory]

Thanks for all the neg rep...

sorry if I ruined everyone's premature pity party with simple logic.

how about this Burn them! Linch Them! get your pitch forks and torches we not gona take these assumptions lying down! Let all get together and boycot! ya that it Cancel all our account that will show them!!! even though we are not realy sure how it all gona work. WE NOT GONA TAKE IT!

[DMCain]

How the heck did this thread digress from suggested GS changes to a pointless debate on POSSIBLE mechanics changes?

Anyway, I don't really care if we can decon GS items or not. It's not that hard to get more parts, only time consuming (and boring as hell).

On the auto-crit mess, just use the PnP rules. Prone, sleeping, helpless and magically held monsters are automatically hit with roll for crit confirmation. The possible addition of an extra 50% damage, for both normal and crit hits, is nice.

[Purgatory]

because the greensteal deconstruction suggestion main point is based on .. the mecanical changes in the game.