Of sorcerers and wizards

[MsEricka]

When Archmage was released, there was much discussion about how it made sorcerers useless. With the release of Update 9, sorcerers will be even more useless. Lets break it down a little.

Feats
Sorcerers: 7
Wizards: 12

Right there that should say most of the argument. Yes Wizards must take five spellcasting-oriented feats and in fact Mental Toughness is required for Arch Mage. But any sane sorcerer will also want pretty much the same list of spellcasting-oriented feats that a wizard would such as;

Empower
Maximize
Extend

So there's three feats. Of course since we're only working with a D4 hit dice, toughness is pretty much mandatory so that's four. There are only three feats left for a sorcerer to take, and yet the wizard still has eight. What's left for a sorcerer to take? You got it, more spell casting feats such as

Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Heighten
Quicken
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness

While the sorcerer can only take three of the above feats, the wizard can take all of them. Before anyone decides to yell that I didn't mention about the bonus human feat, even with one extra feat sorcerers are still far behind wizards for feats.

And now with the Savant prestige coming out, sorcerers will be forced to take spell focus evocation or conjuration. This is a feat that almost no sorcerer has any use for and diminishes the sorcerers ability.

Wizards come out on top.



While this is all fine and good because it's the nature of the wizard to have more feats and metamagics, now we're going to see how this affects sorcerers and makes them lackluster in game now and even more so in U9.

Spell Points
Before archmage, wizards worked with around 1900-2000SP for the most part. With the release of archmage, there are wizards with darn close to 2500SP. An equally geared sorcerer will have around 2900SP. To save some spell points, sorcerers can take a few enhancements to reduce their SP usage per spell but wizards get the same enhancements. There has been no increase and will be no increase to the sorcerer spell point pool with the U9 prestige enhancement.

Wizards come out on top again with a gain in SP with their prestige enhancement.


DC's
Due to the amounts of feats a wizard can take, and the bonuses to dc's granted by the archmage prestige enhancement, wizards have a higher DC in their chosen school. A wizard also has enough enhancements to easily take two schools and have high DC's in both lines.

Wizards yet again come out on top.



Damage

Quick question:
+6 CL for your favored element/-9 for opposed=BS, and takes all thinking out of spell casting

I'm thinking it will be that one. But a 9CL reduction in Firewall only equates to a 33% reduction in damage at 20th level, so it's probably still probably viable against ice-immune, fire-vulnerable targets.

So now sorcerers will get increased damage for their element, but highly decreased damage for their opposing element. Since ice is the element of choice in DDO currently, we'll see weak firewalls. Assuming the sorcerer capstone is staying the same, now a wizard firewall and sorcerer firewall will be about equal until we realize the next part.

Monsters that are helpless take 50% additional damage from all sources, including normal attacks, spells, or environmental effects (before damage reduction is applied).

Currently many sorcerers cannot reach the same DC's and spell penetration that a wizard can simply due to feat starvation. While I'm aware that multiple TR's can alleviate this issue, it still stands that sorcerers come out on the bottom of the pile here.

Why am I talking about helplessness? Because now a high dc wizard can walk into an epic quest, throw a mass hold and do 50% more damage on those mobs thereby surpassing what a sorcerer is able to do.

So now wizards will have higher damage on their firewalls in epics because there is no reason to not hold mobs and firewall them and the wizard takes no penalty in any silly opposing element.

Wizards = win

Where is the benefit for sorcerers in any of this line of prestige enhancements? MOAR DAMAGE! Big deal. Sorcerers used to be the big damage dealers when it came to spell casting, and still will be for one single school. But with the release of savants, wizards have become even more powerful in their utility.

[TheDearLeader]

My name is McPhail, and I am very sad to approve this message.

[Jaid314]

eh, not really.

first off, with DCs raising in general, we don't even know if archmage wizards will be able to hold reliably.

secondly, there is a significant reduction in cost to the base damage spells coming from what we can tell. level 8 spells, for example, appear to cost all of 15 spell points. expect most sorcerers to have a secondary line for force/untyped, and to have a nicely boosted horrid wilting. spammable AOE spells with free metamagics is going to be big, but even without that, the 15 SP horrid wilting (plus metamagic costs) is going to be the real difference.

also, your assumptions with SP make absolutely no sense at all. at most, archmage adds 400 SP. if you take the DC boosts that you're ranting about, a little over 200 SP are gained if i'm not mistaken.

with monster hit points coming down in general, nuking should become a lot more viable. with faster cast time and shorter cooldowns, the sorcerer will be getting more horrid wilting/polar ray per unit time, and this may make enough of a difference.

now, i doubt people will think of wizard and sorcerer as being interchangeable for epics anymore... especially if the DC goes up by a lot... but that doesn't necessarily mean sorcerers won't have a place. if the damage is good enough (ie depending on mob HP), sorcerer may be the way to go.

expect the reduction in wall of fire to be less important... it will mean less effectiveness in burning down the helpless undead in wiz-king, but otherwise expect to see a lot more untyped/force damage being used by sorcerers. the question does remain whether cheaper base damage on nuking is enough of a difference that sorcerer stamina will hold out. hopefully it will. if it doesn't, hopefully we can talk some sense into the devs.

but at this point, factoring in all the other changes, it's still possible that sorcerer will be viable, just not so much in the CC role anymore.

[Chidane]

Well it balances out, you guys STILL have your nigh-unlimited mana.

[Lycurgus]

there is no reason to not hold mobs and firewall them

Except for the prohibitive cost in spell points. Anyone silly enough to do that isn't going to get much further than the entrance of any epic quest. Holds break long before an epic mob will fry in a firewall.

Your SP assessment also assumes the AM doesn't take arcane bolt or blast, any of the SLAs or the spell school enhancements, all of which detract from the total spell point pool of the caster.

Your assessment of wizard feats is a little skewed, ignoring the fact that an enchantment focused dc wiz is going to want both wizard and bard past life feats, is probably going to spend 3 feats on specialization, and is required to take mental toughness. Heighten is essential for dcs, empower and maximize are no-brainers, quicken is usually desired in high end raids and extend keeps the haste junkies off your back for an extra 90-120 seconds. I'd love to know where all the magical spare feats are kept, because they seem pretty damned tight.

[testing1234]

DC is mostly all or nothing damage on the otherhand is just a matter of %, wizards get a boost to the success of all or nothing and sorceres get a boost to the increse % damage sounds like a rotten deal to me.

after doing the numbers of a well equiped sorc and wiz my conclusion is its roughly a 15% difference in max SP if you include some spell restore items but not epic spell ring. this is not including torc or conc opposition ofcourse that even more closes the gap.

[MsEricka]

also, your assumptions with SP make absolutely no sense at all. at most, archmage adds 400 SP. if you take the DC boosts that you're ranting about, a little over 200 SP are gained if i'm not mistaken.

No sense? Here's a breakdown because you've obviously never played a wizard.

105 Mental toughness (required for archmage)
105 Improved mental toughness (why not take it, you have so many feats and nothing else better to get)
100 Archmage 1
75 Archmage 2
75 Archmage 3
75 Archmage 4
535 total

No one should take archmage 5 as the cost is just too high in AP.

What a wizard spends in SP is up to them, but as you can see there is an easy gain of 535SP that sorcerers mostly cannot get (due to archmage and feat requirements). That's highly significant.

now, i doubt people will think of wizard and sorcerer as being interchangeable for epics anymore

They never were. However I agree with most everything else you stated.

Well it balances out, you guys STILL have your nigh-unlimited mana.

This is DDO, no class has mana. We have spell points. And the difference between 23-2400 vs 28-2900 isn't "unlimited".

Except for the prohibitive cost in spell points. Anyone silly enough to do that isn't going to get much further than the entrance of any epic quest. Holds break long before an epic mob will fry in a firewall.

Currently, it takes about 2 firewalls for my sorc to kill a gnoll in epic wizking which is about two minutes duration. Now in U9 if I spec for cold, it will take longer because of the weaker firewall which means probably 3 firewalls in total. An enchat based wizard could drop a firewall, then a mass hold and by the time the hold is ended, only one more firewall would be required to kill the mobs due to the extra damage while helpless. Around the same cost, but less time.

Now put that in a party situation and the firewall plus the PC's means that a wizard is still going to have the edge as they do now.

Your SP assessment also assumes the AM doesn't take arcane bolt or blast, any of the SLAs or the spell school enhancements, all of which detract from the total spell point pool of the caster.

Correct, but my enchantment focused wizard has 2350SP which is no slouch and I can mass hold mobs all day long and i'm only on my first life. Sure I've got good gear, but I've got the same gear on my first life sorc and my sorc's dc's can't even begin to come close on enchantment.

Your assessment of wizard feats is a little skewed, ignoring the fact that an enchantment focused dc wiz is going to want both wizard and bard past life feats, is probably going to spend 3 feats on specialization, and is required to take mental toughness. Heighten is essential for dcs, empower and maximize are no-brainers, quicken is usually desired in high end raids and extend keeps the haste junkies off your back for an extra 90-120 seconds. I'd love to know where all the magical spare feats are kept, because they seem pretty damned tight.

You missed the boat on this one. My point was that sorcerers don't get those feats that wizards do (which I also stated was fine) but now if we want to be a tier 2 savant a sorcerer needs to take yet another feat that is mostly useless to them.

Yet again I will make my overall statement that people are seeming to miss.

But with the release of savants, wizards have become even more powerful in their utility.

[Zachski]

So, wait.

You're taking Archmage but not taking SLAs or DC boosts? At all?

That's kind of a waste.

[Siskel]

You also have the option to ignore Spell Penetration entirely. There are CC spells that do not require SR checks. Toughness will probably be swapped out by well geared Sorcerers with high starting Con. The mindset of players is going to possibly change in the future. A sorcerer from the looks of it should fill a DPS role in groups. Now maybe the devs will not pull this off and the Sorcerer will never be considered viable DPS.

Spell caster DPS is going to be more reliable since untyped damage is getting a boost. Horrid Wilting has great potential with the right clickies and enhancements.

[Aashrym]

No sense? Here's a breakdown because you've obviously never played a wizard.

105 Mental toughness (required for archmage)
105 Improved mental toughness (why not take it, you have so many feats and nothing else better to get)
100 Archmage 1
75 Archmage 2
75 Archmage 3
75 Archmage 4
535 total

No one should take archmage 5 as the cost is just too high in AP.

What a wizard spends in SP is up to them, but as you can see there is an easy gain of 535SP that sorcerers mostly cannot get (due to archmage and feat requirements). That's highly significant.



They never were. However I agree with most everything else you stated.



This is DDO, no class has mana. We have spell points. And the difference between 23-2400 vs 28-2900 isn't "unlimited".



Currently, it takes about 2 firewalls for my sorc to kill a gnoll in epic wizking which is about two minutes duration. Now in U9 if I spec for cold, it will take longer because of the weaker firewall which means probably 3 firewalls in total. An enchat based wizard could drop a firewall, then a mass hold and by the time the hold is ended, only one more firewall would be required to kill the mobs due to the extra damage while helpless. Around the same cost, but less time.

Now put that in a party situation and the firewall plus the PC's means that a wizard is still going to have the edge as they do now.



Correct, but my enchantment focused wizard has 2350SP which is no slouch and I can mass hold mobs all day long and i'm only on my first life. Sure I've got good gear, but I've got the same gear on my first life sorc and my sorc's dc's can't even begin to come close on enchantment.



You missed the boat on this one. My point was that sorcerers don't get those feats that wizards do (which I also stated was fine) but now if we want to be a tier 2 savant a sorcerer needs to take yet another feat that is mostly useless to them.

Yet again I will make my overall statement that people are seeming to miss.

Archmage PRE is still pretty costly in AP too, and wizards are getting hit by the same breaking apart of the dual line energy enhancements that sorc's are. I don't expect to be able to afford much in enhancements on my pale master and archmage after this update. With the saving throws increasing in epic holding might not be the best way to go any longer. If it is then +50% on held mobs in the wall of fire will a big difference. We just need to wait and see.

While it's true wizards have more feats, sorcs still have more SP no matter how we look at it, and faster casting speed, and shorter cooldown, and capstone (if it works, it wasn't when I last played my sorc). Now they have the cheaper SLA's and curses to increase damage more, plus some full sorc level (not spell level) DC abilities too. I'm not seeing the overwhelming advantage a wizard has here.

If the issue is our sorc's can't have the highest spell DPS (burst or sustained) and the same DC's as a wiz and be able to buff like a bard and still heal (UMD ftw) then that tends to happen. They really can't have it all.

If the concern is that sorc's can't afford to lose 1 feat, well who can? It's not like my war chanter wants to take weapon focus, for example.

I wouldn't take improved mental toughness. Other feats for DC's and enlarge spell would be in my wish list before that. 5 bonus feats can disappear fast.

I would wait until it hits Lammania and then start more doom posts. I'm thinking of starting a spellsinger doom post too.

[Zirun]

With the release of Update 9, sorcerers will be even more useless. Lets break it down a little.

But with the release of savants, wizards have become even more powerful in their utility.

I'm sorry, but WHAT?

You don't have to take a prestige class. They present another option for Sorcs. There is no possible way that an addition without a removal or nerf to something else can make them anything but stronger.

And with the spell point cost rework coming, and some spells having their effects reworked as well, nuking spells that aren't hyper-efficient (like Wall of Fire) will be better or easier to use. With more spells to cast, the Sorcerer is favoured with their lower timers on spells. Epics are being reworked, too, and for all we know that could favour nukers compared to CCers (lower HP and higher saves that we already know of favour nukers).

Ultimately, Sorcs will be better nukers and Wizards will be better CCers. Actually, I'm fairly certain that that's already the case (and probably always has been, idk), but nukers aren't really needed since most of the spells that are cast currently need high DCs and/or spell penetration (Mass Hold, Wail of the Banshee, and whatever other spells you crazy Wizards are casting these days), you can't sustain nukes for more than a couple minutes (which isn't long enough in a lot of raids and epics), etc.

I've wanted to play a nuker for a long time (since I played them often in games like NWN and Baldur's Gate II), but that's just not realistic since spell point costs are prohibitively high on pretty much everything that's not Wall of Fire (and that's boring).

[Madryoch]

So, wait.

You're taking Archmage but not taking SLAs or DC boosts? At all?

That's kind of a waste.

obviously she wants to impress with numbers but can't understand that some people here think too...

To OP:Yes wizard DCs in order to be high as Jaid told u u need to sacrifice sp maximum in order to get higher bonuses in DC like 2 in ur primary school and 1 to a secondary one u STILL need to waste spell points 50+50+75 = -175 maximum sp... so no it's not up to the wizard how he/she spends em ...Also consider the fact that without SLAs an archmage's spells cost more due to quicken always beign active that even if wizard capstone reduces metamagic costs it will still cost more for them...

Think what u will bout sorcs the fact that u don't have high enough DCs doesn't make u the best example for a sorcerer ... or the worst ... Not the entire world rotates around ur character ... If u enjoy ur wizard more play your wizard instead ... idon't understand why u have to share it with the rest...

First of all as cold spec ur ice storm will deal more damage on gnolls than ur firewall provided u renew it since for some reason atm it can't be extended ...(yes u gain 10% more damage from cold enhancement tree now and also u ignore some resistance + bludgeoning damage = no resistance ... + gnolls are not resistant to cold i believe while they are to fire (not 100% sure on the last)) Also consider the new Horrid Wilting which will deal as much damage as my polar ray currently does...Go get some efficacy VIII clickie and u ll have a very powerful aoe spell that deals untyped damage and ... HURTS...

I can't stand these posts that people cry all the time ... I know i am not the sorc to be taken as example either since i have everything i wanted but i can point out mistakes in ur logic ...

Toughness is NOT necessary ... If i have 425 hp on my sorc without it and without buffs of ANY kind as human even if u have worse gear why can't u have let's say 350...other than being lazy to get greensteel item ofc...or unable to raid tod ?

Spell penetration and Greater Spell Penetration IS nice BUT not necessary ... especially when mass hold ignores it as i ve been saying in several posts ... And before u start with the elite tod needs it ...I ll tell u that i don't have trouble there and as a testament to what i say u can check my character .One Spell Pen feat will make 1 spell of urs land every 10 more than what without ... If the spell u wanna cast has low success rate at piercing it ... even with 10% increase to pierce it, it will still remain an unreliable method to use ...But then again i am a nobody with no reputation so i must be wrong ... Or maybe i joined forums too late so i can't be a decent player ...

Mental Toughness on sorc? why the hell would u do that ever to urself ?

Quicken ? Right ... so useful ... especially on fleshie ...j/k ofc


So remove these feats from ur list and u can get everything u want ...

Hell i even managed to have

Empower
Maximize
Extend
Heighten
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus
Wizard Past Life
Bard Past Life

So what's ur excuse? Being lazy to get the past lives? Well yeah if u want me to tell u what u want to hear wizards have it easier when it comes down to dcs...Yet u can overcome that to some degree...

And before u tell me that this this and that feats are mandatory ... try it out and then tell me...

I hate this thing that happens in forums all the time . Someone in the past said his her idea and it happened to work (not necessarly perfectly).Sooo that's the bible and we all have to follow it tp the letter ... because ofc it's... mandatory ...

Wake up and think for urself ... challenge other people's opinions and come to a conclusion on ur own if they were right or not instead of crying ...

Finally for saying that sorc was never an option for epics i ll only tell u this :

I have 41 unBuffed DC enchantment ... i dare any of u to look at my characters gear (i wrote my feats above) and i want wizards to start writing their DC here ... On my server i have equal if not HIGHER dc than MOST wizards yet i DO know they can have higher than me with gear similar to mine ... But then again 41 UB dc is more than enough for ANY epic if i can mass hold casters drow in oob while u see most of em trying to fts em when they have 54325525252345 SR since will is their strong save...yet i still manage to hold em ... SO imagine drinking yugo pot and ship buffs ... how does that affect my dcs...

I also have 3004 UB sp maximum without the 4th sp enhancement which is over 100 sp than ur maximum .


Don't cry ... See it as a challenge instead and improve ur character ... work with what u have and make the best out of it ... and if u can't? go for the alternative and be happy ... after all this game is about having fun . This is why u spend ur time here...

Not angry at u or anything ... Just trying to show u my point of view and if i sound harsh ? Well that's my way of explaining things by trying to show u how insignificant some of em seem to me...


@Jaid Well we had that argument on the other post and i hope u understand the way i said it wasn't meant in an offensive way ... was more like trying to make u think some things that seem pretty obvious to me and decide why u want to play sorc. Though i ll admit that quite often u say things that find me 100% agreeing like the above and are absolutely right.

[MsEricka]

So, wait.

You're taking Archmage but not taking SLAs or DC boosts? At all?

That's kind of a waste.

I never said that. You're attempting to put words in my mouth.

What a wizard spends in SP is up to them

Sure maybe I didn't word it the best way I could have, but either way wizards still get a boost with their prestige enhancement while sorcerers don't. And as a note, I know a few wizards that did in fact take the free SP but not take anything that cost them SP. That's their choice, and the gap is even smaller for them.

While it's true wizards have more feats, sorcs still have more SP no matter how we look at it, and faster casting speed, and shorter cooldown, and capstone (if it works, it wasn't when I last played my sorc). Now they have the cheaper SLA's and curses to increase damage more, plus some full sorc level (not spell level) DC abilities too. I'm not seeing the overwhelming advantage a wizard has here.

While I agree with almost all of what you said, I never said an "overwhelming advantage". I simply stated that wizards are becoming better due to these prestige enhancements.

Archmage was a step up for wizards, and I see Savant as a step down for sorcs.

You don't have to take a prestige class.

You're right, and I probably won't. But lets face it, prestige classes are supposed to better the class, and from the evidence I see, Savant is a step backwards.

[Aashrym]

While I agree with almost all of what you said, I never said an "overwhelming advantage". I simply stated that wizards are becoming better due to these prestige enhancements.

Archmage was a step up for wizards, and I see Savant as a step down for sorcs.



You're right, and I probably won't. But lets face it, prestige classes are supposed to better the class, and from the evidence I see, Savant is a step backwards.

I may have interpreted the etone wrong, so I'll say my bad on that. I would think I might have been clouded by many other complainers.

I don't think it's actually a step back, just a specialization IMO. And some of the specialties look attractive to me. Air Savant looks week, but opposed to earth keep water and fire in good standing.

I still think the all the caster PRE's offer so much compared to my spellsinger it's a hard pill to swallow. I expect to see a lot of air and water sorc's out with the update tho and doing fine. I'll complain after I see issues on Lamma, in case there is more usefulness to come.

[MsEricka]

obviously she wants to impress with numbers but can't understand that some people here think too...

He. And when your reply starts off with an intended insult, the rest of your post becomes mostly meaningless.

Toughness is NOT necessary

Keep telling that to every toon that has 230HP at level 20 and keep wondering why raids fail. You are part of the problem. The correct response is "Toughness is NOT necessary if you are fully geared out and can manage a proper list of equipment".

Mental Toughness on sorc? why the hell would u do that ever to urself ?

I never said I took it, I said it's available and that the wizard must take it to get archmage. Did you even read my post? The metas I mentioned are spell casting meta's and that the sorc can pick a few of them while the wizard can take all of them. Again reading comprehension FTW.

The rest of your post is just you patting yourself on the back. Good for you, we're happy for you. You're still missing the point and not contributing.

And yes, the neg rep was from me for being inflammatory and derogative.

[TheDearLeader]

I apologize for how long this post is about to be.

Except for the prohibitive cost in spell points. Anyone silly enough to do that isn't going to get much further than the entrance of any epic quest. Holds break long before an epic mob will fry in a firewall.

Maybe *your* holds do. OP has an Enchantment Archmage. Even on his first life, his holds last in most quests for an impressively long time. When accompanied by my Spellsinger, it’s just ridiculous.

Your SP assessment also assumes the AM doesn't take arcane bolt or blast, any of the SLAs or the spell school enhancements, all of which detract from the total spell point pool of the caster.

He takes some of that. He’s showing how much SP can be gained max.

Your assessment of wizard feats is a little skewed, ignoring the fact that an enchantment focused dc wiz is going to want both wizard and bard past life feats, is probably going to spend 3 feats on specialization, and is required to take mental toughness. Heighten is essential for dcs, empower and maximize are no-brainers, quicken is usually desired in high end raids and extend keeps the haste junkies off your back for an extra 90-120 seconds. I'd love to know where all the magical spare feats are kept, because they seem pretty damned tight.

You do realize that a Sorc would be hard-pressed for a *single* Past Life Feat, right? A Sorcerer would love to take all of the feats listed above – but you just listed 11 feats, and even a Human Sorc only gets 8. Note that even as a Wizard, you still managed to leave yourself 4 spare feat slots. There’s your “magical spare feats”. Four more feats to take things like Toughness, Spell Pen x2 (since you missed those), and Insightful Reflexes, since I see so many forum builds utilizing this feat.
Note that at this point, an Archmage and Sorcerer with equal gear would compare as follows:
Archmage’s DCs in main school would be better by 5.
Archmage’s DCs in secondary specialty school would be better by 3.
Archmage’s DCs in all other school would be better by 1.
That’s without the Bard or Wizard Active PL Feats. Add then in where appropriate.

You also have the option to ignore Spell Penetration entirely. There are CC spells that do not require SR checks. Toughness will probably be swapped out by well geared Sorcerers with high starting Con. The mindset of players is going to possibly change in the future. A sorcerer from the looks of it should fill a DPS role in groups. Now maybe the devs will not pull this off and the Sorcerer will never be considered viable DPS.

Spell caster DPS is going to be more reliable since untyped damage is getting a boost. Horrid Wilting has great potential with the right clickies and enhancements.

Ignoring Spell Penetration is a possibility – but considering many are clamoring for Mass Hold Monster to have an SR Check, that leaves us with what, Web? That’s all I can think of off the top of my head that is “Crowd Control” that does not require an SR check.
Toughness Swapped out on Sorcs – Possibly, yes. But then you start talking about Sorcs becoming DPS right after making this statement. Why do I correlate the two? The “Glass Cannon”. You’re suggesting that Sorcerers are going to become a powerful blaster, but at the expensive of 42 HP. (That’s Toughness, and 3 AP on Racial Toughness Enhancements). That means they are 42 HP lower than an Archmage of equal playtime and equipment.
Yes, that’s what we all love – the caster that dies constantly because he pulls agro, and doesn’t have enough hit points. I can see my future Water Savant pulling Horoth or Sully with a single Crit Polar Ray, and the party dropping me like a bad habit.
I do appreciate that you say “Spell caster DPS” instead of Sorcerer DPS in the last part. It does show that you understand that every benefit made to spell changes will not just benefit the Sorcerer – cheaper spell DPS is going to affect both classes equally. I will point out that your example, Horrid Wilting, is a Level 8 Spell – Sorcs have three (mostly) unchangeable spell slots for that Spell level. Horrid Wilting better one-shot raid bosses, teach me Calculus, and mow my lawn before I decide to give up another spell for it.

You don't have to take a prestige class. They present another option for Sorcs. There is no possible way that an addition without a removal or nerf to something else can make them anything but stronger.

Actually, the PrE makes them stronger while also making them weaker. I can’t think of a single other PrE that has such a penalty for having taken it. Imagine if KotC for Paladins made them do 60% less damage versus anything *not* an Evil Outsider. Or if Frenzy Beserkers did less damage on any roll not a 19-20.

And with the spell point cost rework coming, and some spells having their effects reworked as well, nuking spells that aren't hyper-efficient (like Wall of Fire) will be better or easier to use. With more spells to cast, the Sorcerer is favoured with their lower timers on spells. Epics are being reworked, too, and for all we know that could favour nukers compared to CCers (lower HP and higher saves that we already know of favour nukers).

The spell point cost reworking will affect both classes equally. If cooldowns are a concern, then use a larger rotation of spells.
What *doesn’t* affect both classes equally is any damage spell that has a save. What do I mean? I mean an Enchantment Archmage with a Secondary in Evocation will have the same spell point costs, but due to higher spell DCs, do increased damage due to the changes in Mob Helplessness, coupled with less mobs saving on their higher-DC Evocation spells.
Example : Say we’re in Crystal Cove. Four Hobgoblin Raiders, two Rangers, two Fighters.
Sorcerer runs around, kiting them through Firewall, or Ice Storm, or some damage over time spell that doesn’t have a save. They do spell damage + items + enhancements + etc + 20% specifically for the capstone. Mobs are still capable of damaging the Sorcerer over this period of time. Sorcerer cannot use opposed elements, as they will be causing less damage. Sorcerers cannot use save-based spells, because the Rangers will take no damage (Save), and Fighters will take half (Save). This method will be slow, require multiple castings, and cause the Sorcerer a lot of damage, as well.
Enchantment Archmage with Evocation Specialty will instead cast a Mass Hold Monster. Mobs Helpless. Cast something like Ice Storm. Mobs stay in ice storm, because, guess what? They’re held, and taking 150% damage from being helpless. Archmage can then use a Cone of Cold with a DC 3~4 points more difficult than that of the Sorcerer to get full damage on the fighters, and certainly have a better change on the rangers. Enchantment Archmage will ultimately cast less spells, and take little to no damage.

Ultimately, Sorcs will be better nukers and Wizards will be better CCers.

Read the example above. By being better CCers (and, in fact, better at DC-based spells in general, even outside of their specialties), Wizards will pull ahead of Sorcerers in the DPS race, but also in the staying alive race.
Once again, I apologize for the long post. Please keep in mind that OP has both an Enchantment Archmage, and a Sorcerer.

[Madryoch]

He. And when your reply starts off with an intended insult, the rest of your post becomes mostly meaningless.



Keep telling that to every toon that has 230HP at level 20 and keep wondering why raids fail. You are part of the problem. The correct response is "Toughness is NOT necessary if you are fully geared out and can manage a proper list of equipment".



I never said I took it, I said it's available and that the wizard must take it to get archmage. Did you even read my post? The mets I mentioned are spell casting meta's and that the sorc can pick a few of them while the wizard can take all of them. Again reading comprehension FTW.

The rest of your post is just you patting yourself on the back. Good for you, we're happy for you. You're still missing the point and not contributing.

And yes, the neg rep was from me for being inflammatory and derogative.

no i don't fail to see the picture ... u do ... I am not patting myself in the back as u said because obviously u don't wanna read what i said and if it holds truth there ...

Toughness is NOT necessary ... if u are referring to 230hp sorcs then obviously they started with low con , have no greensteel item which is relatively easy to get and never did tod ... so no that kind of sorcerer shouldn't have a right to talk about epic quests in my opinion ...If they are allowed? Yes they are... if they should be effective? NO. there are SO many places to visit before that ... And yes obviously i am teh reason many raids fail cause people think con is a dump stat instead and start with 8 con . If i can have 425 UB with greensteel hp item u can at least have 330-350 hp which is more than enough...

and when u make a list of feats that are available but poor sorcs can't take em then sorry but if u add such feats in it then yeah u are trying to make an impression ...

If someone missed the point that wasn't me . If u wanna keep dreaming do so but u don't have to do it here ... this is a whine post no matter how i look at it and it seems from other ersponses that i am not the only one who thinks so ... So thank you for ur contribution ... and ur professional opinion... I let others judge if what i said was wrong or not...It is a pity that people like u have the rep to give around thus making a funny post and becoming renowned when not only ur knowledge in my opinion of what u are talking about is not enough but u are ever refusing to check if what someone says is true and can't handle criticism...

And since i MIGHT be mistaken ofc tell me how YOUR post contributes in any way ...

[MsEricka]

Snip...

Yet again inflammatory, derogatory, trollish and bordering on flaming. If I could -1 you again I would.

[Aashrym]

Enchantment Archmage with Evocation Specialty will instead cast a Mass Hold Monster. Mobs Helpless. Cast something like Ice Storm. Mobs stay in ice storm, because, guess what? They’re held, and taking 150% damage from being helpless. Archmage can then use a Cone of Cold with a DC 3~4 points more difficult than that of the Sorcerer to get full damage on the fighters, and certainly have a better change on the rangers. Enchantment Archmage will ultimately cast less spells, and take little to no damage.

3-4 DC on a wiz over a sorc is still less damage than the sorc's capstone provides comparing the average number of saves on a d20. 15-20% more failed saves doesn't cause more damage than the sorc capstone bonus. When they hit 5 or 6 DC's higher then we see the base difference per spell, but that still doesn't take casting speed and and cooldown timers into consideration on blasting on other spells. I wouldn't consider wall of fire or ice storm that useful if either is able to sustain higher damage spells longer in the new system.

Increased caster level, increased maximum caster level, elemental weakness curses, and bypassing some elemental resistance will increase sorc damage too.

I can still see the sorc pulling of the better DPS depending on sustainability.

[tinyelvis]

When Archmage was released, there was much discussion about how it made sorcerers useless. With the release of Update 9, sorcerers will be even more useless. Lets break it down a little....blah blah blah

If you think sorcerers are useless now, then honestly I really don't think you understand how to play one. They can solo level much faster and easier than wizards. They are more useful in epic content (if built correct), and currently solo epic content more easily. Sure, wizards have been made so that any rookie can easily make them at least somewhat useful in the end game, but so what. I think that's a good thing.

Now, as for feats. Well, you don't have to take a lot of feats you claim are mandatory. My guess is you don't have any idea what feats you really need and what you can do without.

As for the Sorcerer PRE. If you are gonna throw a fit because you can't take every feat you want then I suggest you just ignore the sorcerer PRE and go on as before. You are not forced to take it. If you really have issues with it, then don't take it. Why will you be forced to take it? Your toon will perform as well (in fact better than it currently does with the proposed changes) if you don't take the PRE once the mod comes out.