When extreme elitism justifies extreme language

[TheWalruss]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OP
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys

I've been so unfortunate to end up in a couple of raids with guilds that take pride in being able to do difficult content flawlessly. The guilds are typically swarmed with very competent avatars who are mostly TRs proudly showing off very impressive epic gear.

However, grouping up with these guys has proven to come at the cost of two things. First of all you must be able to "hear voice" if you want to do raids with them. Secondly, they seem to be very aware of the fact that if they write what they speak they would get banned for harassment. Inflammatory language and personal denigrations are common especially when everything does not seem to go well.

The reason why I write this post is in the hope of drawing attention to this phenomenon. I think it's rubbish that you use your epics to justify selling a bad attitude towards other people.

Please bring attention to this problem with people using voice chat to avoid getting banned for horrible language.

Thank you,

Mordiggian of Cannith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE/CONCLUSION-kind-of-thingy...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for all your replies.

My original intention has been formulated no clearer than by krackythehoodedone (#35). Nevertheless, allow me to make a few statements as I have grown wiser since the OP, thanks to all of your replies!

NO MORE BLACKLISTING
First of all, no names will be given. I am against scaffolding and I firmly believe everyone deserves several chances. That’s the whole purpose with virtual reality as opposed to the flesh. Rather than imprison someone’s hard work on an avatar, I think it’s much better to try and talk that person into changing his/her strategy for doing tactics. Talk is the solution, not the challenge. And the ridiculously childish and unworldly /squelch, blacklist and report attitude as Aurora1979 and Seikojin’s posts brilliantly document is just foolish (#31, #99). (I’m not saying Aurora1979 and Seikojin are foolish, I’m agreeing that the content documents a foolish situation). It is an aggressive attitude which ultimately is a double-edged sword. Ask yourself what you would rather: boast of how many people are on your blacklists/how many blacklists you’re on or tell your friends how you just managed to pull off a shroud with a bunch of newbies? One of those cases uses talk as the solution, and you can even do that while swearing and entertaining at the same time. Of course, being human is sometimes also being irrational, as crazy7381 argued very nicely (#42). However, when you are in that mood be prepared for the hangover as well. In the end, you only have yourself to blame for /ragequitting. In extension to this, I want to point out that laughing itself can sometimes serve the same function as flaming (#64). Of course, laughing at someone’s attempt at trolling is just as useful a solution as simply ignoring it. No one gets any wiser or closer to the solution to the problem but at least you had a great time.

BE CONSIDERATE IN PUGs OR DON’T PUG
Also, I think Ungood’s first post on page 1 has a very nice suggestion for a tool that could help pugs work better. However, it might also just make the situation worse. If a newbie gets instructions from the foul mouth, the newbie cannot turn that mouth off. It’s like your employer telling you why and how he needs you in a way that makes you feel like a toilet brush. In a similar vein, I don’t believe using Audacity or Fraps to allow the language-crusaders further means of surveillance is a good idea. As Nicnivyn said, just stick to using voice chat for what it’s there for: guidance. If you don’t want to do that, don’t do difficult, high-end content with PUGs. Organize a guild on your premises and recruit people who agree with your values. Of course, you could apply that same strategy for gathering raids and then language wouldn’t be an issue, as krackythehoodedone mentions (#35). Personally I love swearing exactly because: “Profanity scales with passion. The more one cares about the game, the more he [sic] is inclined to swear.” (Kmnh, #28). But there’s no reason to share it if you’re in a group that doesn’t appreciate it. Use tells or setup a channel for you and the others in the group who want to see it, as Raoull said (#58), and restrict yourself to that written medium for the time being (of course you could also just buy your own Ventrilo or TeamSpeak where you can invite your friends and do as you please). A good example of language in the extreme is provided by The_Deceiver (#115). If I had such an assault targeted at me for the sole reason of not knowing a detail, I would most certainly put in a lot of work to get it on Fraps, mainly to put it on YouTube and then on my Facebook.

ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR ROLE AS A RAID LEADER
Third, Murgin’s post on page 1 also nailed it. I totally agree with your point about the “mysterious magic of PUGs”. It is always exciting to join a new pug. However, “we” as a realm would work better if no one had to run in fear from PUGs. Imagine if the worst case scenario would be the holder of the LFM asking you a question you don’t answer sufficiently and that person in turn tells you off to some forum where you can learn more. It was not the bad case of a much needed lvl 20 cleric with ConOpp goggles and a DT with Lorrik’s on MyDDO deceiving the raid leader into believing he was a pro, and then he/she was an utterly fail because no one dared start doing the tactics. The assumption that ‘if we do tactics and get everyone on board, ppl might think we don’t know what to do!’ is /facepalm. In PUGs, personal management is your job as a raid leader. If you can't teach people with manners, don’t open up an LFM, shortman it instead. Do your research and avoid the problem. Don’t open up an LFM and avoid having to deal with the job training. Work your friendlist, ask friends if they have the sort of people you require on their friendlist. Of course in some cases it is necessary to dispose of a person if it is a stubborn and obstructive person (a noob in contrast to a newbie), but do it kindly!. No need to lower your standards to ask a troll to shoo. Also, you don’t know if it actually is a person who has a disability. Then all of a sudden it’s not a troll (e.g. if the person is deaf (#68)). Of course in that case it is also your responsibility to tell that. However, I totally understand why people who are feeling stigmatized due to a disability don’t want to bring it into the public. If that disability serves as a basis for a declined invitation or a dismissal, that very stigma that a person could flee from in real life is re-enacted in-game.

ACT AS A HUMAN NOT A MACHINE
So yes, “it’s all about how you play and act”, as Murgin says, but the issue I’m addressing here is how to handle people who don’t know enough about a quest, mission, mechanics, character build, a raid, etc. and how newbies in turn can handle people who have no clue how to pass on knowledge in an efficient way. The way nolaureltree000 describes it, that simply having low hp and 0% fort is enough to be noobing around, isn’t enough to be a noob. When I started as a 28pt Wizard, I was that person. The trick here is not to forget that you haven’t always been perfect and probably still aren’t. If you forget that it would just make you end up a tool. In other words, elites don’t come out of nothing. Instead of competing with newbies cooperate with them. If you are in a raid and really don’t have time, well, then wait longer for the person you need instead of hurriedly taking on board a newbie you don’t want to teach.

TRY TO BE RATIONAL BUT DON’T FORGET TO HAVE FUN
In sum, every player deserves respectful treatment because you invited him/her. If the player didn’t turn out good enough, tell it in a courteous way and next time, do your research better before inviting. This is 101 raid management to any person who’ve tried World of Warcraft (voice wasn’t available here). In essence, when you’re not among your private, closed circles of friends, the issue is not about how to avoid people, it’s how to conduct yourself in a way that allows you to interact with all people. As Yodino says, sometimes there isn’t much choice if you want to get your epics. However, I disagree that overreacting is a first option. Really, it’s the only thing I want to put into people’s heads, including my own, that the rational mind can prevail and when it does, it’s a win-win. Of course it might not be as fun, especially if what some people are seeking is the pleasure in doing harm to others (trolling). That’s an entirely different issue which has nothing to do with professional PUGing.

CONCLUSION: DON’T LFM IF YOU CAN’T LIVE UP TO OTHER PEOPLE’S EXPECATIONS!
That being said, it is the extreme cases of language used intentionally to hurt another person at a personal level rather than a professional level, e.g. lack of experience or information, that I originally wanted to address in this post. Even at the professional level, no one deserves to get annihilated for being a newbie. If someone displays interest and is obviously learning, then it tells more about you than him/her if you obliterate him/her.

This post was about:

Personal denigrations on voice chat because then your bad behavior is safe.

I think this is something guilds should respond to if they want to be taken seriously and I hope this post will end up as something those individuals can learn something from. If you totally disagree with this, I hope you will stay away from LFMs in the future.

DDO IS NOT ONLY YOUR PRIVATE SPHERE
What it all comes down to, I guess, is the fact that DDO is not your bedroom, even though that might be where you’re actually sitting. It’s an international community where people are very different. It’s even an international community with tabloids where people can discuss conduct and moral matters. In this regard, there is a need for people to pay attention in PUGs. You’re not at home. People you play with are not like you. They value different things and do things different ways, for better or for worse. Respect that! Not for me or anyone else but for you.

Sincerely

Mord

[zebidos]

Hey guys

I've been so unfortunate to end up in a couple of raids with guilds that take pride in being able to do difficult content flawlessly. The guilds are typically swarmed with very competent avatars who are mostly TRs proudly showing off very impressive epic gear.

However, grouping up with these guys has proven to come at the cost of two things. First of all you must be able to "hear voice" if you want to do raids with them. Secondly, they seem to be very aware of the fact that if they write what they speak they would get banned for harassment. Inflammatory language and personal denigrations are common especially when everything does not seem to go well.

The reason why I write this post is in the hope of drawing attention to this phenomenon. I think it's rubbish that you use your epics to justify selling a bad attitude towards other people.

Please bring attention to this problem with people using voice chat to avoid getting banned for horrible language.

Thank you,

Mordiggian of Cannoth

Last time i was in a quest and got held my a enemy caster I said the S word. Felt bad.

[TheWalruss]

Thank you for missing the point.

Let me clarify. You join a raid through the LFM system. You feel tense because it's the first time you do this raid and you know mistakes are not always well taken. You listen to the instructions but no one said anything about not hitting the mephits if they had been fascinated. By now the reader I'm addressing should know what I'm talking about.

Instead of telling the guy hitting the mephits, hey dude that’s not good, the bard goes on a frenzy and annihilates his face on voice chat. Shortly after the poor fella disconnects.

My point is: you don't know whom you are addressing. It could be a 12-year-old kid, it could be a guy actually suffering one of the many handicaps you just used as swear words against him. It's these kinds of extreme cases that I want people to do something about, particularly since the assaults seem to come from the concentration of a bunch of people from a single or two guilds of super hardcore players. If they can't teach people with manners they shouldn't open up for PUGs at all in the first case. It's like waiting for the scenario they hate to come just to be able to take relief on some poor soul that fell into the trap of believing there's a chance of experiencing something new.

[protokon]

Bunch of immature idiots who think that video game ability justifies talking down to people. NOTHING gives you the right to talk down to people, no matter how "good" of a player you are. Oh, and the 'phenomenon' isn't isolated to just your server...

[Spookyaction]

Why not just play with people who don't offend you. I have to say the situation you describe sounds amusing. Did anyone tell you not to jump off the side ? Any who you are always going to find some people whos style you dont like, and I would be sad if people stopped cussing because of delicate ears.

[Rubiconn]

It is sad that people get so absorbed in a pixelated representation of a cartoon that they loose focus on reality. Most of these people would never say anything like that to someones face.

It stems from a lack of respect for themselves and low self image - people that have to knock others down are showing you where they feel their own shortcomings are. Someone who is confident in themselves never cut people down.

Most of these people are the ones who complain there are not enough good players on their server but do nothing to help people get better.

Last night while running my TR'd wizard on some harbor lowbie stuff, the paly in the group was complaining about how bad his toon was. I offered some advice and suggestions. I ran into him today doing lowby stuff on a fighter, I asked about it, he read the guide online and decided for his first toon it was too complicated so he rolled a fighter. We ran several quests and that was that.

This is the way I would like to be treated so I treat others this way and I can only hope that those I help will pass it on, this is the only way our community is going to grow with good people.

[PwnHammer40K]

I wonder if Turbine can check when you report someone for harassment over voice chat...

[Chai]

The reason why I write this post is in the hope of drawing attention to this phenomenon. I think it's rubbish that you use your epics to justify selling a bad attitude towards other people.

The best thing to do in this situation is the exact opposite. Dont draw attention to it - ignore it and move on sans response.

1. They are trying to get a rise out of anyone who is affected by their behavior. Allowing them to do so will encourage them to continue.

2. Ignoring them soon creates a situation where the only people they have to game with is eachother. Attrition sets in soon enough and they begin leaving one by one. Ever see those threads with people moaning that all the "good players" are leaving the game? Its untrue. All the players that were willing to put up with their **** left the game. Everyone else is still here enjoying their gaming experience.

Neg rep for this post? Pathetic. Remove the rep system please - make the trolls show their face.

[Purgatory]

Ya it can be rough i mean its lack of communication some times on the noob part some times on the vet part.

Other times its just complete lack of respect for the other players. These noobs these days they don't read lfm's, dont inform if they are new and need direction. Think they are entitled to join anyone group and any time even if they know they dont meet the lfm requirments. Then after Completly showing there lack of respect and courtesy for other players by showing they clearly dismissed anything you put in your lfm, beleive it doesnt aply to them for some odd reason, they come cry on the forums about someone yelled at me....Whaa Whaa... cry me a river please...


edit: And i promise you 100% that the lack of respect that shown ingame is shown to me in RL situation get meet with the same result. I tell them right there what i think of them... unless they are paying my bills and signing my checks

[TheWalruss]

@Spookyaction: I don't feel offended by somebody's assault on me. I do feel disgusted, however, by witnessing someone destroy someone else just because he/she is not in an influential guild. It's not a question of delicate ears, it's a question of putting up with ignorance.

@Chai: Sans response works if you are already old and experienced enough to know about not feeding trolls and how to smile wittingly at flame bait. The issue here is not delicate or clever, it's quite simply verbal abuse and how to put up with it. Leave group? Sure. But should that be necessary? And doesn't that mean allow for the foul play to continue and perhaps spread?

@Purgatory: Ignorance goes both ways. I'm not talking about the Urban Dictionary definition of a noob here (expect other people to do the work for you and get praised for it). I have profound respect for people who can raid lead, manage a guild while also having the unique ability to keep everyone entertained.

What I'm saying is there wouldn't be an issue if angry elites could play with angry elites and not have to some times open up an angry LFM to get unfortunate non-angry mules. But the equally unfortunate situation is that often we aren't enough to do on our own and therefore we sometimes have to teach others. Do that in a nice way? Sure.

[Chai]

@Chai: Sans response works if you are already old and experienced enough to know about not feeding trolls and how to smile wittingly at flame bait. The issue here is not delicate or clever, it's quite simply verbal abuse and how to put up with it. Leave group? Sure. But should that be necessary? And doesn't that mean allow for the foul play to continue and perhaps spread?

It does, but what can you do to stop it? Nada. Report sometimes works, but unless you got proof, you got nothing.

You could roll FRAPS and PM some mods with a video or three showing the situation, complete with audio. That would eliminate all the he said she said stuff when it comes time for them to explain themselves, heh.

[nicnivyn]

For the first comment, I can't say that the use of voice in the game is a BAD thing - especially in more complicated content. Almost all my LFM's include the the note 'Voice in use'. This does not preclude those who do not or can not hear voice from joining, but I do expect a heads up at the beginning and a higher level of awareness on the part of the person who can not hear the instructions, because I do not have the time or inclination to type everything I explain on voice (I talk a lot. A LOT).

For the second comment, I would say - speak up. If you feel that someone is behaving badly then call them on it. It won't make them your friend, but then do you want someone who feels this is appropriate behavior to be your friend? Use civilized language, and speak up or you are part of the problem.

Most of the time it is not an entire guild, it is an individual. Add that individual to your 'do not group list' and move on. HOWEVER, it is the unfortunate fact that even if there are 'good' people in that guild, they are complicit in that they do not speak up themselves. This gives them and the guild as a whole a bad reputation. They may be snickering like 3rd graders behind their hands, they may frown on the language but be afraid to say something because they are sheeple who can't go against the 'group'. Whichever, it's a sad state of affairs and the answer is - again - to become aware and educated on who these people are, who their guilds are, and avoid them.

Content still gets done. It may not be 'flawless', but it's certainly more fun even if more challenging to run it with respectful, good people rather than 7 year olds guised as 'adults'.

[bokaboka]

Wait a sec...There are elite guilds on Cannith??

[NaturalHazard]

Theres no need to sceam abuse at anyone, that doesnt solve anything.

[NaturalHazard]

Wait a sec...There are elite guilds on Cannith??

lolz.

[yodino]

This is an MMORPG - MASSIVE, MULTIPLAYER, ONLINE are words that should be taken into consideration when playing. Not everyone is going to think like you do, act like you do, or perform the way you do. The best thing to do is group with those who mesh with your personality.

IF however, you NEED to get along with them to get your epics, then I guess there isn't much choice in the matter. If you can afford to run with other groups more to your taste, then simply drop group and put said offending toons on blacklist.

[Memnir]

-whole post-

Exactly right, and well said.
Rep worthy, but I need to spread more around it seems.

[Kmnh]

I'd like a PM with the names.

[Ungood]

Honestly, I would love to see a language filter on Voice Chat, that is one thing I really don't like about voice chat. Or maybe the ability to turn off one player's voice at a time, if they are being unacceptable without needing to squelch them, like maybe have it so I can click their little speaker icon off, and that mutes them.

I mean really? Does my wife and family need to hear a buncha foul mouth gamers?

And to be honest, the foul mouth people really kill the whole ambiance of Voice Chat, and since they get to speak with impunity, they do. If Turbine had a means to control/monitor VC like they do text, that would help a great deal, and be a step in the right direction.

[doubledge]

voice mods?