What happens to arcane CC?

[Tomalon]

With saves high as it is and the need to spec and gear heavily for epic crowd control, does this mostly eliminate the use of spells with saves in epics?

I think all the crowd control spells have saves and if those saves go up even marginally the use of arcane crowd control may become ineffective or at least inefficient (multiple castings for minimal success).

I am trying to decipher the role of my caster in this new system. Kiting while melee pick one off at a time? DPS, single target perhaps to avoid the former choice? Buffs, like a bard but not at good? Perhaps add a few locked doors with intelligence runes into epic content? Do future DDO casters spec for tons of threat reduction and befriend the intimidate tanks (all three of them?). LOL, okay, I am *mostly* kidding here. But I really am a bit lost how to redefine the arcane casters' role (especially when considering multiple epic mobs and a loss of crowd control).

I guess you missed the memo a few updates ago, went something like this:

From now on casters will be haste/buff bots.....that is all!

j/k..but seems like it sometimes.

[cdemeritt]

I'm glad this came out now... I just bought a GR heart to respec my Necro focused Wizard to Enchantment... I guess I'll hold off on using it for a little bit, and see what shakes out...

[Kriogen]

Nuke is the new black.

Stack AoE DOTs, add cheap SLAs. Mana cost of damage spells is also going down, some spells will even do more damage (will scale with caster level).

Necro+evoc. Well atleast until Mod12 when there will be something else FOTM :P

Plus, DC 49. Heh. I play DDO, but thats waaaay too much for my chars. It means i'd have to have totaly perfect cookie-cutter build, perfect gear (including epic, but how to get epic if I need to run epic first), high level guild, **** good luck with drops or no RL so I can grind raids 24/7 and fat CC for eStore stuff. Even DC 40 is high. Pfft, if that's a must, I'll role a Jedi in a galaxy far far away.

Pure damage is cheaper. Also scales better. Works even for beginer, get better with better build/gear. Works fine in CC level 25. I have a feeling new epic trash will be like CC one, but bosses like current/old epic.

[TigrisMorte]

... penultimate....

this means next to ultimate. So, what's the ultimate?

[Beethoven]

ok ok ok if a Mobs has a say +36 to his saves rather than the roughly estimated 30-32 most do right now in epics

These numbers are probably not accurate. Devils in eChrono seem to operate with a save around 26 to 28; a mere 40 DC gets them more often than not. Now, considering they are named (as Leloric pointed out) they do not suffer from the Minion debuff. So, by the wording Eladrin used, we should not see any difference here.

Standard/non-named mobs currently suffer a -5 penalty to their save. This penalty will be reduced. However, that still means they will suffer /some/ penalty - just not as much as now.

Mobs in the Cove feel a little "off". I truly enjoy they event, but analyzing the builds of trash gives the impression fighting a bunch of Wis specced fighters/barbs who used Strength as dump stat and who took feats improving fort saves instead of any combat feats. Their Will save is decent. Their fort save very high. Hitpoints are on the low end and damage output is laughable at best.

Still, a mere 40 DC already gets the melee mobs relative reliably. Archers seems to be 50% success rate. So, using data from eChrono and the Cove it looks like an effective DC would be 42-44. Technically this is not a bad chance: low enough to be achievable for a specialized toons with good gear with still some room for improvement on maximized toons.

[Trillea]

this means next to ultimate. So, what's the ultimate?

It should be Epic raids, of which there are 2, neither of which is hard enough IMO. (Well epic VoN 5 comes very close, and is technically a raid) When the flagging quests are harder than the raids, there is a problem.

[Shade]

Guess what guys:

The minion debuff didn't always exist.

We CC'd very effectively in the original ultra high saves epics.

CC is not doomed. Easier then ever if anything given sorcs increase caster levels for those who spec for it.. (caster lvl28 flesh to stone = casters mobs doomed, even ones with high SR) .. web vs melee mobs, and mass holds for everything.

I imagine the change will be to drop it from its current insane -10, to the -5 I originally suggested and Eladrin said he would consider so many years ago.

[sephiroth1084]

CC is not doomed. Easier then ever if anything given sorcs increase caster levels for those who spec for it.. (caster lvl28 flesh to stone = casters mobs doomed, even ones with high SR) .. web vs melee mobs, and mass holds for everything.

You are aware that caster level has nothing to do with saves, right? You still have to get a meaningful save DC on your sorcerer for this to work. Yeah, sorcs could, potentially, have the highest Spell Pen on their Flesh to Stone, but that's about all their PrE is going to do for them in terms of CC.

[joeuhuh]

everyone keeps talkin aobut wizard dcs-- what about poor sorcs who barley get reliable holds with allthe gear in the game right now-- i beleive drow with max gear is 45 charisma plus 4 for ugo adn store pots with bard sone and those pots a drow sorc max dc is 43-- 41 for warjunk thats with 2 feats to increase enchant dcs one of which they wil have to lose for a feat to get the savant pre-- moving it to 42 drow/human and 40 for warjunk---- and thats also not having any spell pen feats in order to have those encvhant feats so if they add spell pen to mass hold having 3 wizard and 3 fvs past lives wil be a requirement in order to have a chance of moderate sucess if the dcs are raised right now my sorc runs around with 39 dc and has probably a 70 percent hold on meleee mobs and has to energy drain to hold priests and mages so now not only will the holds be much less effective but with spell pen they will not have much chance to get through anyways until i tr a half a dozen more times


the sorc pres are **** raise the spell lvl of your damage spells which are maxed out alreadywhile reducing caster lvls of other spells

changing the dmg and crit snhancments is total pooh-- befor u could spend 22 ap and get full dmg and crit chance and multipiler for 2 energy types now its 18 ap for one energy type which i admit it goes from 40 percent to 50 percent but its not a 10 percent increase-- base spell dmg 100 percent maximize 100% + 50% empower + 50% sup potency +20% capstone-- and now enahncments going from 40% to 50% -- so going from 3.6 times base spell dmg to 3.7 base spell dmg is not a significant increase

in order to make my firewall bypass 15 points of fire resistance i have to gimp my polar ray back to lvl 11 and the increase in max lvl of fire spells will not increase firewalldmg or extend its duration or have any effect whatsoever-- no fire dmg spell goes higher than lvl 20 but of course i get 3 free fire dmg spells which suck so bad i removed them from my spell list long ago i get 2 aoe spells that will destroy web the only reliable cc i will have left to me and a scorching ray that capped out at lvl 7

the curse sound like it might be usefullif it was aoe curse but single target would only be usefull on end bosses ---20 sec cooldown

the 2k pt boiling blood on tier 3 for fire dc is 10 plus sorc lvl plus con mod so low 40s is about as high a dc as u could expect to get and the last 3 pages of this post have detailed how that prob will be marginal at best warjunk -- 22con 7 item 3 encept 4 tome 1 litany 2 boat= 37 for a +14 modifier = 44 fort save 46 with ugo and store pot
duno if its linked to a school for item and feat bonuses but its possibly usefull once every minute im assuming since the base dmg is so high it wont be affected by enhancemnts items and metas or it would be in the 24k+ crit range with over 7k base dmg

i gues im concentratin on fire savant because i would like to make my firewalls better because even if they reduce mob hp 50 percent i cant nuke endlessly to kill more than a few mobs befor shrining or poting

fire dmg goes up very marginaly one maybe 2 dmg per tic on firewall and closer to base dmg on fire resistant mobs -- dbf wil go up marignally as well from 3.6 x 15d6 to 3.8 x15d6 woo hoo while nerfing the only dmg spell other than disintigrate that goes above lvl 20 polar ray back down to lvl 11-- btw our other good fire spell meteor swarm is now a acid spell (earth savant) even though it deals fire dmgbut it doesnt benefit from increase in caster lvl even if u had earth savant i guess i have to respec to get burning blood since the increased caster lvl willhelp it bypass spell penetration..... even though it wont do more dmg

befor i had 44 ap sepnt to maxe both the fire /cold and acid/elec schools of dmg
now i wil have to spend 36 ap jsut to maxe fire and acid since my cold spells will be nerfed to uselessness anyways and guess waht a couple months later i will have allthe spells i currently have both electric and cold traded out


so in summation looks like update 9 is gona totaly nerfify my caster sorc as he will lose dmg and crit enhancments for 2 elements his dcs on cc spells will go from decent to very very marginal adn he will have spell pen checks for said cc that he has no way of bypassing without great rolls-- but i will gain 1-2 dmg per tick on my firewall and it will bypass 15 pts of fire reissitance and i lose my best single target dmg spell polar ray-- oh yeah and hey we get enahncemnts for dmg for our disintigrate now that we have no chance of them failing thier save and actualy taking dmg from the spell and i get to wait a month or so to change out the 10 spells that i can no longer use with any effectiveness which willcost me 800k plat plus the 2 feats for enchantment i have whihc i can no longer land or get through spell pen i have to trade out for somethin usefull


oh yeah and i get 3 spell like ability dmg spells that suck on any content under lvl 8 whoooopeeee its good to be a sorc ur only dmg spells destroy ur only viable cc spell web

wishing i was a wizard right now realy bad i thinkkin the 9 in update 9 is a upside down proctologists finger fixin to check my prostate

[Khellendros13]

-2 from Fvs aura, -2 from Barbarian Intim...that's the difference in saves now and U9 most likely, and add to that half HP and firewall+web...I have a feeling Epic will be easier.

I already spam 3sp webs and 3sp dances...and top melee will be cutting through Epic trash HP like butter.

Higher saves with less immunities is good.

[andbr22]

So you are saying that EVERY epic team will now look like:
- Barbarian (tht not gimped his intimi)
- FvS (AoV +BB)
- Caster Nuker / FW or BB
- Caster Nuker / FW or BB
- Caster Nuker / FW or BB
- Caster Nuker / FW or BB

This is merly how did the best (or one of the better) setups for CC look like.

[Jaid314]

stop focusing on wall of fire.

wall of fire is mostly good because it's cheap. that's the advantage of wall of fire. lots of damage (eventually) over a long duration with a low cost.

look around and realize that there is more to damage spells than fire. ice has plenty, electric has a few... acid doesn't have a ton, but sounds like it's picking up at least one coming soon (and acid rain will probably be something like wall of fire in terms of damage). when supplemented by untyped damage spells, that should allow you to damage just about anything.

[IncubusAcidicus]

everyone keeps talkin aobut wizard dcs-- what about poor sorcs....

this is because sorcs are not dc casters. you do not have the feats to maximize your dcs for crowd control. i understand there are sorcs out there that get by with an inferior version of cc. but plain and simple sorcs always have been, and always will be, inferior to wizzys at cc. they are nukers plain and simple. if you want to play a cc caster roll a bard. then tr into a wizzy. then tr into a wizzy again. add 3 cleric PL to that and go archmage main school enchantment 2nd school conjuration. its not hard to figure out.

[Attropos]

this is because sorcs are not dc casters. you do not have the feats to maximize your dcs for crowd control. i understand there are sorcs out there that get by with an inferior version of cc. but plain and simple sorcs always have been, and always will be, inferior to wizzys at cc. they are nukers plain and simple. if you want to play a cc caster roll a bard. then tr into a wizzy. then tr into a wizzy again. add 3 cleric PL to that and go archmage main school enchantment 2nd school conjuration. its not hard to figure out.

A well geared and tr'd sorc will be around 1-2 less DC than an equiv WF AM (depends on fort). Wizard CC excels because of the cheap SPA. Hypno and dance are huge, but it in no way excludes sorcs from being a main caster in Epic DA or Epic chains.

Sorc's can nuke, but that's not all they are.

[Khellendros13]

So you are saying that EVERY epic team will now look like:
- Barbarian (tht not gimped his intimi)
- FvS (AoV +BB)
- Caster Nuker / FW or BB
- Caster Nuker / FW or BB
- Caster Nuker / FW or BB
- Caster Nuker / FW or BB

This is merly how did the best (or one of the better) setups for CC look like.

My guild has a lot of FvS and Barbarians, 99% of the guild runs will have both.
Wall of Fire because that will be even better when trash has 50% less HP.

All I am saying, is that most groups don't have DC's maximized as it is, so there is really no point crying about how things will change.

I am actually hoping that we will struggle and have to think of some interesting tactics, like Barb intim or sending in a high HP melee wearing the Lionheaded Belt Buckle etc.

[sephiroth1084]

I am actually hoping that we will struggle and have to think of some interesting tactics, like Barb intim or sending in a high HP melee wearing the Lionheaded Belt Buckle etc.

Or you could stop being a pansy and wear the Lion-Headed Belt Buckle yourself!

That's what I've been doing on Elochka. Seems pretty nice. When Crystal Cove is done I need to get back on a Shroud raiding schedule, and maybe some more EDA and Sins runs for larges so I can craft some things, among which is a set of Ash gloves for the Enervation Guard.

[cdemeritt]

Well, as for what will become of the CC Epic casters....

The same thing that happens to "Every" top build that goes out of fashion when something major changes... They will adapt, or retire.


Some will find a way to still make it work... Some will still try to make it work, and fail... Some will abandon the dream, and find a new way to make things super easy... It will happen, the sky isn't falling.... A new dawn is coming, it will just be a different day...

and in a few weeks, the player base will adapt, and little will change.... It just will be different....

This has all happened before, and will happen again....


Any further concerns should be referred here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=304817

[IncubusAcidicus]

A well geared and tr'd sorc will be around 1-2 less DC than an equiv WF AM (depends on fort). Wizard CC excels because of the cheap SPA. Hypno and dance are huge, but it in no way excludes sorcs from being a main caster in Epic DA or Epic chains.

Sorc's can nuke, but that's not all they are.

so base 16/18/20 cha wf/hum/drow +5 lvls +2 tome + 7 epic helm frost +1 litany +3 exceptional 3/4/6 enhace (hum/drow) = 37 wf, 38 hum, 41 drow (effectively +13/14/15to dc)

+9(SL) +2(item) +10 = 21 + 13/14/15= 34/35/36 mass hold dc +2 if you take the focus feats which are very hard to fit in on a sorc

so a drow gets a 38 mass hold dc (standing, before ship buffs, yugo pot, spell song, ect)

my wf archmage stands at 42 dc before any buffs are applied. thats a difference of 4 dc

if you take both feats, i dont see ALSO fitting in heighten, so web is now 7 dc lower than the mass hold (also 9 dc lower than the wf AM that 2ndary schools conj), which makes it not viable for cc

i say again. sorcs are inferior to wizzys at cc. i also say again. its not impossible for a sroc to gimp by with an inferior version of cc, but lets face it, they are nukers, and they are very good at it, and will become even better with the changes in update 9.

also, any sorc that maxes cha like that, or plays anything but a wf, is never getting into any of my groups. ever. i dont care if a 37 base hold dc is good enough. 300 hp and no self healing (heal scrolls with umd DO NOT COUNT) makes u a waste of a party slot. period

[shagath]

also, any sorc that maxes cha like that, or plays anything but a wf, is never getting into any of my groups. ever. i dont care if a 37 base hold dc is good enough. 300 hp and no self healing (heal scrolls with umd DO NOT COUNT) makes u a waste of a party slot. period

Hmm. Not gonna even start this fuel, just saying you need very high charisma to be able to nuke without monsters saving. I wouldn't pick WF myself for a nuking task at high levels(elite amrath comes first to my mind).

[noinfo]

also, any sorc that maxes cha like that, or plays anything but a wf, is never getting into any of my groups. ever. i dont care if a 37 base hold dc is good enough. 300 hp and no self healing (heal scrolls with umd DO NOT COUNT) makes u a waste of a party slot. period

I normally make my save vs responding to this sort of thing, but even if I played on your server, why would I care? I could quite easily that WF Sorcs who blow all their sp healing themselves are a waste of a party slot, or not with max dc are a waste of a party slot or cannot manage agro are a waste of a party slot. While I am not a wf fan at all I trust that the player of that caster is able to contribute to whatever run it is and even if I didn't take them into my group I am sure they would not lose sleep over it either.