What happens to arcane CC?

[LittleM]

Now mobs will not be autocrit, but instead helpless (50% more damage from ALL sources).

What's the source for this info?

[Malky]

What's the source for this info?

Didn't find the exact post, but Eladrin stated this somewhere on the forum.

What's nice is that other forms of CC (unconventionnal until now due to the existance of mass hold) might have more of a use after u9 : Sap (no save), Trip, high-DC Webs, etc... and epic trash having half the current HPs will also change the behaviour of groups. Actually the biggest drawback i see is for monks who will have a much harder time building their Ki without auto-crits, not to mention how hard it will be to land a stun in epics if that change goes live.

Edit: found it! http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=59

Btw he also stated that instakill spells will have an effect too in epics after u9...

[Beethoven]

hat's nice is that other forms of CC (unconventionnal until now due to the existance of mass hold) might have more of a use after u9

By "unconventional" you mean the same spell and stuff used from Harbor throughout the rest of the game then, yes, that's a potential outcome.

I'm also not sure about the use of "nice" in regards to a capped CC specced wizard playing the same in epics like already at level 3 in waterworks. Web out-performing every other form of CC was a complaint as common as firewall out-performing any other form of aoe damage spells.

Casting the one and same spell over and over again throughout the entire game gets old quick. Higher level spells giving a higher benefit was a step in the right direction. I am not sure why we need to go back.

Anyhow, again, it's highly speculative since we do not know by what margin saves will be raised. They merely raise it by two points the whole thing will be a non-issue since low to mid forties dc is still something achievable for most players given but decent (yet not maximized) builds and gear.

They raise the saves by 5+ points, I'm afraid the sole result will be that instead of an abundance of Enchantment specced Archmages we will have an abundance of Conjuration specced Archmages. Ideal would be for various specializations to have a place. There is nothing wrong with more powerful CC being somewhat harder to land. However, to justify the extra effort there also needs to be a greater benefit.

Holds particularly being targeted from so many angles (harder to land, less benefit) could easily result in overkill. It's why I think it'd be better to either leave (some) of the extra damage as is (ie: still auto-crit but no longer triggers special properties automatically such as level drain) -or- leave the DC low enough to cut down somewhat on the amount of effort and work it takes. After all, it requires relative little special effort to get a decent web DC.

[LeLoric]

Wow everyone should calm down a bit here. First it says the save debuff is being reduced not removed so we aren't going back completely to pre update 5 saves.

Even if they did though most casters didn't run double enchantment focus or have the past life feat then. Archmage was not in game and palemaster was broken. Guild buffs weren't in game.

The key test here is probably the devils in e-chrono. They are orange name and have no minion debuff. If you can hold them you will be fine. If you can't you probably need to look at how you can increase your dc.

[Beethoven]

I said speculation on my part. I'm not upset. Anyhow, reason why I am posting yet again (other than having an abundance of time while waiting for the rest of my family to get ready for our shopping):

The key test here is probably the devils in e-chrono. They are orange name and have no minion debuff. If you can hold them you will be fine. If you can't you probably need to look at how you can increase your dc.

+1. Actually did not think of that. Excellent point.

[LittleM]

Thanks, found the source post.

[Thuriaz]

For Enchanter Archmages I think we'll just see more debuffs, disco's, and tactics around that. After all web may stick them but depending on the situation you'd want extra DPS BEFORE they break that web so I could easily see a double spec Ench/Conj Wiz or a PAIR of specced Conj and Ench wiz's using the synergies to effectively CC and boost team output. Likewise I could see Spell Singer becoming much more needed in a party as a result of all this "We can't land the mass holds, put an LFM up for a Spell Singer" it seems to me its creating a kind of balance. Groups will seek out more Debuff/Buff specialists for their CC when you absolutely MUST land that hold. Groups will seek multiple CC caster types sometimes even in the same epic or raid. Groups will also see more use of PRE's such as the Defender PRE's that are now only situational to help lighten the CC problem. After all, if the first mass hold fails but the mobs are agroed on a tank there is always time for a second mass hold.

[altrocks]

For Enchanter Archmages I think we'll just see more debuffs, disco's, and tactics around that. After all web may stick them but depending on the situation you'd want extra DPS BEFORE they break that web so I could easily see a double spec Ench/Conj Wiz or a PAIR of specced Conj and Ench wiz's using the synergies to effectively CC and boost team output. Likewise I could see Spell Singer becoming much more needed in a party as a result of all this "We can't land the mass holds, put an LFM up for a Spell Singer" it seems to me its creating a kind of balance. Groups will seek out more Debuff/Buff specialists for their CC when you absolutely MUST land that hold. Groups will seek multiple CC caster types sometimes even in the same epic or raid. Groups will also see more use of PRE's such as the Defender PRE's that are now only situational to help lighten the CC problem. After all, if the first mass hold fails but the mobs are agroed on a tank there is always time for a second mass hold.

I like this thinking. The current epic group build if 1 healer, 1 cc, 4 dps will have to change a little, but I don't think it will make things that much harder. With the decrease in mob HP and the increase of DPS from vorpals and instakill spells, you won't need 4 barbs swinging away on a hobgoblin for 2 minutes just to kill it anymore. Still, we all know that within 2 weeks of the U9 release there will be near no-fail tactics posted, in detail, on every doo forum and people will forget all about these changes.

[Drailog]

*edit*
Int for D.C.
Human
18 base +5 level + 3 class enhancements + 1 racial enhancement + 4 tome + 7 item + 3 Exceptional Item + 2 capstone +1 Litany +2 shrine +2 yugo +2 store pots = 50 int (+20 mod)
Caster DC: 10 Base + 20 Int +9 Spell Level + 2 greater item + 2 Feats + 2 Primary Archmage +1 Wiz PL +1 Bard PL = 49

Drow
20 base +5 level + 3 class enhancements + 4 tome + 7 item + 3 Exceptional Item + 2 capstone +1 Litany +2 shrine +2 yugo +2 store pots = 51 int (+20 mod)
Caster DC: 10 Base + 20 Int +9 Spell Level + 2 greater item + 2 Feats + 2 Primary Archmage +1 Wiz PL +1 Bard PL +1 spell singer= 50

Other races
1-2 less DC


so if they raise the DCs higher you have to nearly have everything that can be done including buying ddo store items, which if this is what is forced upon us, forcing your consumer to buy something, turbine has fallen.

I say just make Hold monster and others like it do what they are supposed to.. CC only and no extra damage add, except sneak attack cause the mob is considered denied his dex bonus which means sneak attack.. except for against other rogues 4 levels higher

[andbr22]

How will it look -> check lv 25 Crystal cove
- I ONLY ONCE SEEN wizard that held monsters longer than 4 seconds (without few enerevations)
- Fire wall kiting (again) usefull
- Pale Master > Archmage
- 10 DR + dispalce is generaly enought to keep yourself alive
- Stunnings Forget (maybe if you hit high 40 or low 50 stunning, lower only will land on casters)
- Problematic for "lower to HIT" characters (as my mostly DEX ranger had to use improved destruction (with true shot) and after that could rerliably hit enemies).

And why I did made triple acid pick now -> to be usless until i TR maybe (because 35 Reflex will become laughtable for epics).

[Jaid314]

i'm confused...

why does the drow get a spellsinger and human doesn't? is this some previously unknown drow ability that i have simply not been aware of? and if so, how do i get the drow "summon spellsinger" ability? (i have a couple of drow casters, and would not mind a +1 DC and 10% SP reduction. does it come with free spellsong vigor too?)

[Aashrym]

For Enchanter Archmages I think we'll just see more debuffs, disco's, and tactics around that. After all web may stick them but depending on the situation you'd want extra DPS BEFORE they break that web so I could easily see a double spec Ench/Conj Wiz or a PAIR of specced Conj and Ench wiz's using the synergies to effectively CC and boost team output. Likewise I could see Spell Singer becoming much more needed in a party as a result of all this "We can't land the mass holds, put an LFM up for a Spell Singer" it seems to me its creating a kind of balance. Groups will seek out more Debuff/Buff specialists for their CC when you absolutely MUST land that hold. Groups will seek multiple CC caster types sometimes even in the same epic or raid. Groups will also see more use of PRE's such as the Defender PRE's that are now only situational to help lighten the CC problem. After all, if the first mass hold fails but the mobs are agroed on a tank there is always time for a second mass hold.

I would take FvS AoV for the aura of menace over the spellsinger if we need to land more spells. -2 on saves in the aura is a better benefit than +1DC from trance. We can still only fit so many players in a party and the new FvS PRE looks like it would be a better option than a spell singer, and we can fit a war chanter in a melee/dps slot.

We don't even need the SP regen with the number of cheap SLA's coming out. I'm considering filing my spellsinger under wait for improvements.

Every time I see a new caster PRE come out and I compare what they are getting to what I have I feel more and more pigeon holed into just support and less and less effective in a caster role on the spellsinger.

Seriously: FvS AoV, Wizzie PM or AM, Cleric RS, and Sorc Savant abilities compare how to spellsinger? I get +1DC for the party, +1 caster level for the party, and more SP for the party. And +4 UMD/concentration. It's like almost as good with some casting (IE healing/enchantment focus) was too good so Turbine decided to change my arcane casting bard from almost as good to 2nd rate to why bother.

I would be happier with bigger bonuses and maybe some bonus to sonic/healing spells on top. I see a lot of % bonuses going around. The comparison to abilities is just nasty. And spellsingers are the most expensive PRE looking at AP's just trying to compete with other casters and other bards.

I have 1 good spell school with massive numbers of immunities to face and epic saves sound like they are going up. Bard casting is taking a turn for the worse IMO. It took effort to make it relatively respectable at one time and now it's not even possible in comparison to full casters to the point that it's starting to look pointless to try.

Give me a closer to PnP song of arcane might. 6 second duration so that I cast my spells using perform check instead of caster level sounds much better. It won't be overpowered with the limited spell selection.

And that reminds me. I keep seeing spells coming out for Sorc/Wiz and the odd Sor/Wiz spell that bards can also use. How about finally getting us some more bard only spells? Sheessh.

I might finally give in to melee only bards after the recent boosts to casters. (Some not so recent at this point).

[sephiroth1084]

Irresistible Dance will once again be a lot more important. As will Energy Drain/Enervation. Disco Ball and Web will be a bit more useful than Mass Hold unless you have pretty awesome DCs. Wail and Finger may be pretty useful as well.

Nuking will be more effective as monster HP is going down while spell efficiency is going up, even if our nuking spells are going to get a little weaker on the whole from toon to toon.

AM CC SLAs (how many acronyms can I start a sentence with?) will become far more useful, as spending little SP to catch the guys that break CC will be very useful, while a PM's high necro DCs and higher secondary school DCs will have them being just as powerfully relevant as they are now.

Stunning will become more difficult for many melees, so arcane CC will become a little more important.

[Aashrym]

i'm confused...

why does the drow get a spellsinger and human doesn't? is this some previously unknown drow ability that i have simply not been aware of? and if so, how do i get the drow "summon spellsinger" ability? (i have a couple of drow casters, and would not mind a +1 DC and 10% SP reduction. does it come with free spellsong vigor too?)

It usually comes free with me in the party but I'm feeling under enhanced on my PRE atm, so that's 1 less played character doing it on Ghallanda at least.

On the plus side, I'm actually interested in rolling up a FvS or playing my sorc again. Air specialization without opposing water or fire seems useful for a savant. Or go water and give up fire. Decisions, decisions

[Drailog]

Irresistible Dance will once again be a lot more important. As will Energy Drain/Enervation. Disco Ball and Web will be a bit more useful than Mass Hold unless you have pretty awesome DCs. Wail and Finger may be pretty useful as well.

Nuking will be more effective as monster HP is going down while spell efficiency is going up, even if our nuking spells are going to get a little weaker on the whole from toon to toon.

AM CC SLAs (how many acronyms can I start a sentence with?) will become far more useful, as spending little SP to catch the guys that break CC will be very useful, while a PM's high necro DCs and higher secondary school DCs will have them being just as powerfully relevant as they are now.

Stunning will become more difficult for many melees, so arcane CC will become a little more important.

So what you are saying.. with the exact same spec that i have except switching to necro dc, for what reason you have me baffled, we will be just as useful when they give them say +4 to there saves? really??

The point is they are pushing wizards hard to bedps now when some of us want a more versatile or utilitarian role.

*edit* as for Energy Drain/Evervation.. yeah doing this for almost every single mob is a HUGE mana sink. so you want wizards to expend an exhorbent amount of sp which they do nto normally have a huge amount of it anyway.. unlike sorcs

[ColdNapalm]

I honestly hope they make firewall and wails cool downs ******** high, for balance sake.

You do realize that by making the cool down "retared high", by defination, it won't be balanced right?!?

[sephiroth1084]

So what you are saying.. with the exact same spec that i have except switching to necro dc, for what reason you have me baffled, we will be just as useful when they give them say +4 to there saves? really??

The point is they are pushing wizards hard to bedps now when some of us want a more versatile or utilitarian role

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Drailog]

ok ok ok if a Mobs has a say +36 to his saves rather than the roughly estimated 30-32 most do right now in epics then then how is a 40DC dancing ball or web or anything be effective.. yes you can innervate or energy drained 1 or 2 times to be useful but that is how many sp used just for 1 mob. It is not like wizards have the insane amount of sp a sorc does.

So with that being said, what are you talking about

[ColdNapalm]

To your first concern. It sucks. But you learn. I did. I ended up getting both a bard and wizzy PL before my final build for the extra +2 from the PL feats. Still dont have a litany or a +4 tome, but I use epic diabolist docent which rounds out the int with a +2 tome. So I could get 1 more DC from either a +4 tome, or a litany and a +3 tome

As far as buffs and dispelling, its the exact same thing as raising the DC. Instead of dispelling buffs, you cast energy drain or enervation on them to lower thier saves first. But the line of thinking is the same

I don't accept that it sucks but you learn is acceptable (and learn what exactly?!? The biggest boost is to grind away for super rare items). NO other play style has this level of scaling where you are either god or useless. And yes I know this is because of what CC actually does...but my second point actually fixes it the way PnP does.

As for using enervate/energy drain...for EVERY enemy?!? are you kidding me?!? With the buff system, dispel is an area effect...this is important fact in making such a system work so it isn't too easy for the CC wizard...but not so impossibly difficult that you need to grind uber gear so you can switch out from useless (or need metric tons of SP potions).

[sephiroth1084]

ok ok ok if a Mobs has a say +36 to his saves rather than the roughly estimated 30-32 most do right now in epics then then how is a 40DC dancing ball or web or anything be effective.. yes you can innervate or energy drained 1 or 2 times to be useful but that is how many sp used just for 1 mob. It is not like wizards have the insane amount of sp a sorc does.

So with that being said, what are you talking about

The epic monsters, mostly, have saves of well under +30. If they had 30s, then our CC would be landing only 50% of the time now, which is not the case.

We were able to contribute meaningfully in epic content before it got nerfed when monster saves were much higher than they are now, and from the sound of things, their saves aren't getting THAT high. Quit crying and man up.
It's going to make epics more interesting to run again as we'll have to do more than chuck a single Mass Hold and watch the melees annihilate them.