What happens to arcane CC?

[Engar1]

...we've also reduced the penalty epic trash has to their saves from the minion debuff (and chopped their hit point to about half of what they were before).

With saves high as it is and the need to spec and gear heavily for epic crowd control, does this mostly eliminate the use of spells with saves in epics?

I think all the crowd control spells have saves and if those saves go up even marginally the use of arcane crowd control may become ineffective or at least inefficient (multiple castings for minimal success).

I am trying to decipher the role of my caster in this new system. Kiting while melee pick one off at a time? DPS, single target perhaps to avoid the former choice? Buffs, like a bard but not at good? Perhaps add a few locked doors with intelligence runes into epic content? Do future DDO casters spec for tons of threat reduction and befriend the intimidate tanks (all three of them?). LOL, okay, I am *mostly* kidding here. But I really am a bit lost how to redefine the arcane casters' role (especially when considering multiple epic mobs and a loss of crowd control).

[Trillea]

With saves high as it is and the need to spec and gear heavily for epic crowd control, does this mostly eliminate the use of spells with saves in epics?

I think all the crowd control spells have saves and if those saves go up even marginally the use of arcane crowd control may become ineffective or at least inefficient (multiple castings for minimal success).

I am trying to decipher the role of my caster in this new system. Kiting while melee pick one off at a time? DPS, single target perhaps to avoid the former choice? Buffs, like a bard but not at good? Perhaps add a few locked doors with intelligence runes into epic content? Do future DDO casters spec for tons of threat reduction and befriend the intimidate tanks (all three of them?). LOL, okay, I am *mostly* kidding here. But I really am a bit lost how to redefine the arcane casters' role (especially when considering multiple epic mobs and a loss of crowd control).

Most likely it'll be like what we do in elite amrath for highest efficiency, or epic DA: put down persistent CC spells like disco balls and/or webs, and only throw the disabling spells when you have a group in one area. Methinks that the tier 5 enchantment SLA just may have gotten more appealing for those that break the CC early.

[Xyfiel]

1) drop all spell pen buffs and cc spells but web
2) Web, web, and more web.
3) nuke
4) ???
5) profit

If mobs get a save boost and lower hps, why not use gear/enhancements/feats for nuking and keep only the best cc spell in the game?

[Engar1]

Most likely it'll be like what we do in elite amrath for highest efficiency, or epic DA: put down persistent CC spells like disco balls and/or webs, and only throw the disabling spells when you have a group in one area. Methinks that the tier 5 enchantment SLA just may have gotten more appealing for those that break the CC early.

These spells you mention have saves as well. Low 40 dc's are not easily reached by most players, yet that is the level sought for higher end epics and are very useful to have in lower content as well. If that goes up to say mid 40's or upper 40's it would make CC unreliable or unachievable for most players.

Epics do not lend themselves well to face first tactics nor will healers tolerate it for long if epic snitch means drinking sp pots. Some have nooks to hide and nuke from and that can be effective, but some encounters or whole epics (like devil assault) are not so forgiving. I understand the desire to diversify away from 'mass hold', 'web', 'mass hold'... but what fills the cc void and how do casters adjust?

[Trillea]

These spells you mention have saves as well. Low 40 dc's are not easily reached by most players, yet that is the level sought for higher end epics and are very useful to have in lower content as well. If that goes up to say mid 40's or upper 40's it would make CC unreliable or unachievable for most players.

Epics do not lend themselves well to face first tactics nor will healers tolerate it for long if epic snitch means drinking sp pots. Some have nooks to hide and nuke from and that can be effective, but some encounters or whole epics (like devil assault) are not so forgiving. I understand the desire to diversify away from 'mass hold', 'web', 'mass hold'... but what fills the cc void and how do casters adjust?

I understand what you are saying, but epics are just that - epic. They are not made for general consumption. Hopefully this will be brought to light, and if the saves are raised, so be it. Epic quests are supposed to be DDO's penultimate challenges. If you can't make the marks, get the gear until you can.

[donfilibuster]

The issue is not trivial, player builds rely on these infos.
Apparently they are making it easier across all classes in exchange of nerfing the current tactic.

Currently melees rely on the caster's cc, but on u9 will intimi and take down minions fighting hand to hand.
Currently casters rely on cc instead of direct damages, but on u9 will be able to use damaging spells.

Obviously if you low down the monster defenses to allow damage from direct melee and offensive casting then cc cannot remain as it is or the fights will be a joke more than it already are.

This change improves the chances at epics for anyone that is not cc or crith specced.
The timing for u9 is so the new sorc and fvs PrEs can function decently in epics, which won't be possible as it is now.

[Chai]

We will need to know what the realistic DC to have is before we start hashing this one out. My working theory is the saves will be like old epic, but the HP will be a step above elite.

[Beethoven]

Epic quests are supposed to be DDO's penultimate challenges. If you can't make the marks, get the gear until you can.

Your point would hold true if epic mob AC would be raised to 90+, generally have improved evasion and/or resistances to damaging spells that need to be overcome.

Way things currently are there are no such marks for any class or pre /except CC specced casters. Barbarians, fighters, monks, rogues and any other class specializing in melee is able to hit epic mobs and do reasonable damage with only average end-game gear. Sorcerers (once the new pre and reduced hitpoints are in place) will be capable of doing decent damage without requiring any rare/hard-to-get items.

All of these cases epic and rare loot amplifies the respective toons capabilities, but even without it they remain useful.

What the OP is saying is that if save DCs against CC are raised too high it puts the CC specced caster in a unique situation where - unlike any other concept in the game - rare gear (+4 tomes, Litany, etc.) and (potentially multiple) TRs will become a requirement. What wouldn't be so bad if there would be a big warning during character generation that these type of toons have far higher requirements to be viable in end-game than any other class.

Currently casters rely on cc instead of direct damages, but on u9 will be able to use damaging spells.

It's called diversity. Why would an enchantment specced Archmage not rely on enchantment spells? Casters that rely on direct damage spells are commonly sorcerers.

Granted, this is all speculation still since we don't know by how much the DC will be raised. However, I can understand the cause for concern based on the announcement.

[yodino]

Woah, does this mean the end of enchantment based Archmages in Epic content? Is it time to shift to Necromancy or Evocation? Well Evocation Archmages generally means your a wanabee sorc, so that only leaves necromancy as an alternative - since the silver lining (if I understand it correctly) is that instant death spells will finally work in epics now. But then why go archmage when pale master already specializes in Necromancy?

I guess what I'm asking is where do Archmages go from here?

[IncubusAcidicus]

Also, the way hold/mass hold works is changing. Now mobs will not be autocrit, but instead helpless (50% more damage from ALL sources). Sounds neat. Melee and nukers get to add bonus damage.

The problem (2 fold)

1) Mobs saves are going up, as mentioned, making it both harder to land and easier to save
2) Dreamspitters will no longer function except on an ACTUAL crit roll. This means if you are lucky enough to actually land the hold, a few seconds later they will save


Fully geared out as a WF archmage i stand at an unbuffed 42 DC before ship buffs (+2), spell song (+1), yugo pot (+1), and the soon to be released fvs aura (+2) (go ahead and add +1 if you are a drow just for laughs. whole different conversation...). So as I see it, unless I missed something, in a perfect situation you can achieve a 49 DC hold.

That being said, I agree we will have to see what the new mob saves will be before we can actually debate the effectiveness of hold/mass hold after the update, but it looks grim....


/sigh. There goes 6 months of TRing for a max enchant DC epic farmer.

However, 2ndary archmage mastery necromancy starts to look better. 15sp enervation could be the way to fix the problem maintaining reasonable mana efficiency. Guess we will find out soon......

[NaturalHazard]

Also, the way hold/mass hold works is changing. Now mobs will not be autocrit, but instead helpless (50% more damage from ALL sources). Sounds neat. Melee and nukers get to add bonus damage.

....

what about earth grab and stunning so stunned or earthgrabbed mobs wont be auto crit as well? so all those earthgrab picks are now a waste?

And like you said dreamspitters are now almost useless?

[ColdNapalm]

Okay I was working a CC wizard my first time around. Just starting out and NOT having access to litney or +4 tomes or a slew of stuff that you just don't get your first run through...I was having trouble hitting the DC as soon as level 15. Yeah I was woefully under-eqed...but hey it was my first character...that is to be expected. I'm not sure I like this idea of increasing the DC bit. Yeah with all the proper gear, you become a I win button...but even now, it is a mandatory that you need some good stuff to do it. Enough so that somebody who makes a CC wizard their first character will have some serious issues as is,..much less with amped DC. Course if they make the DC easier, it makes CC wizards god like because that's what CC does when it lands. Ah the joys of game balance.

You know what I'd rather see? Have enemies in high level quests have BUFFS. Have them have prot from evil up so they can't be charmed. Have FoM so they can't be held. And then lower the DC. Then it becomes an issues of dispelling those buffs before you can proceed...and have enemy casters replace dispelled buffs. Would make dispel magic line actually useful...and you can do CC without having to have uber gear.

[IncubusAcidicus]

Okay I was working a CC wizard my first time around. Just starting out and NOT having access to litney or +4 tomes or a slew of stuff that you just don't get your first run through...I was having trouble hitting the DC as soon as level 15. Yeah I was woefully under-eqed...but hey it was my first character...that is to be expected. I'm not sure I like this idea of increasing the DC bit. Yeah with all the proper gear, you become a I win button...but even now, it is a mandatory that you need some good stuff to do it. Enough so that somebody who makes a CC wizard their first character will have some serious issues as is,..much less with amped DC. Course if they make the DC easier, it makes CC wizards god like because that's what CC does when it lands. Ah the joys of game balance.

You know what I'd rather see? Have enemies in high level quests have BUFFS. Have them have prot from evil up so they can't be charmed. Have FoM so they can't be held. And then lower the DC. Then it becomes an issues of dispelling those buffs before you can proceed...and have enemy casters replace dispelled buffs. Would make dispel magic line actually useful...and you can do CC without having to have uber gear.

To your first concern. It sucks. But you learn. I did. I ended up getting both a bard and wizzy PL before my final build for the extra +2 from the PL feats. Still dont have a litany or a +4 tome, but I use epic diabolist docent which rounds out the int with a +2 tome. So I could get 1 more DC from either a +4 tome, or a litany and a +3 tome

As far as buffs and dispelling, its the exact same thing as raising the DC. Instead of dispelling buffs, you cast energy drain or enervation on them to lower thier saves first. But the line of thinking is the same

[danlan]

I just wonder what's the pre-minion cc strategy in epics before the release of update 5?

[BlackSteel]

I just wonder what's the pre-minion cc strategy in epics before the release of update 5?

you mean what people did before they got the original save nerf? it usually involved alot of dancing by the arcanes and bards. and fighters/barbs used weighted +10 to stun, while others relied on the random 5% proc. well geared casters could land about half of their CC.

another way to explain it with a small personal twist. I originally started TR'ing my main in order to get a no fail stun DC on epic monsters. B/c a 48-52 fort save wasnt quite high enough at the time to get everything. My plan was to get it above 60. About a month later we got the minion debuff, and I was stuck doing my TR's.

[aristarchus1000]

We will have to adjust. Let's not panic until it is out.

I think persistent CC spells will rise again (disco ball/web, maybe symbol of persusasion), and with higher saves you will need to kite mobs in and out of areas to get things to hold. On the other hand, things like firewall and ice storm might actually kill mobs in a reasonable amount of time.

The art of firewall perching will continue to reign, the same way it was done before saves were nerfed.

I do think single cast cc like hold spells will lose their appeal somewhat. Hold does not represent a huge upgrade in dps anymore, and single casting spells are just a lot less efficient.

Once the content is out, let's just see what happens.

[Purgatory]

These spells you mention have saves as well. Low 40 dc's are not easily reached by most players, yet that is the level sought for higher end epics and are very useful to have in lower content as well. If that goes up to say mid 40's or upper 40's it would make CC unreliable or unachievable for most players.

Epics do not lend themselves well to face first tactics nor will healers tolerate it for long if epic snitch means drinking sp pots. Some have nooks to hide and nuke from and that can be effective, but some encounters or whole epics (like devil assault) are not so forgiving. I understand the desire to diversify away from 'mass hold', 'web', 'mass hold'... but what fills the cc void and how do casters adjust?

i run my caster at 48 dc, but then again i TRIII with bard life and wiz life and clr past life and bought so many festival coins i have 100's of abishi cookie sets to maintain that 48dc....

ya not many people gona be able to hang at 48, i could hit 49 if i ever get that +4 int tome and 50 with bard buffs

[leglisse]

what about earth grab and stunning so stunned or earthgrabbed mobs wont be auto crit as well? so all those earthgrab picks are now a waste?

And like you said dreamspitters are now almost useless?

I mean most peple like myself relied on earthgrabing weapons to autocrit in epics,, are they going to waste?

[Maegin]

I honestly hope they make firewall and wails cool downs ******** high, for balance sake.

[Beethoven]

I just wonder what's the pre-minion cc strategy in epics before the release of update 5?

Primarily? Stunning weapons. Back then the Stunning property did /not/ allow for a save, making those weapons ridiculously powerful in epics. Casters used Web and Irresistable Dance to keep mobs not actively attacked by the melees in check.

Stunning weapons were the first to be hit with a nerf bat as the developers (rightly imho) decided a weapon property should not be so much more powerful than an actual feat (Stunning Fist and Stunning Blow allowed for a save). After, the Spell Resistance was raised for several mobs particularly the Drow in epic House D. I believe Devils and Tieflings (eChrono, epic Devil Assault) started out with a somewhat higher SR already (although not quite as high as the Drow).

There were also a number of people who found it ridiculous that the most effective crowd control spell is a level 2 spell, which - due to high saves and (in some cases high SR) is significantly more potent than even level 9 spells. Then - with the lower DCs and and Holds no longer be affected by SR, Mass Hold became the weapon of choice and we ended up with an over-abundance of Enchanter Archmages.

Here is the problem as I see it:
If indeed the Saves are raised by a margin large enough to require a DC in the mid- to high forties to reliably land Enchantment based CC:
* +4 tomes are rare (frankly, I have yet to see a +4 Int tome, let alone have it drop on my wizard). Litany isn't easy to acquire either (Abbot is one of the least run raids and only there is no guarantee you will get one after 20, 40 or even 60 runs).
* you can grind for the best gear currently out, add a few TRs -or- simply specialize in Conjuration and use Web.

The benefit of having a working Enchantment DC is starting to get low enough it hardly justifies the extra effort. 50% damage may sound nice in theory, but with mob having half the hitpoints, additional damage from vorpal strikes and some of the chances that are coming (not to mention ever improving gear) having mobs stuck in a web may just be good enough.

Add to that, that I am not convinced Mass Holds bypassing Spell Resistance is working as intended (it's an Enchantment spell which usually always pit the Enchanter against the targets spell resistance and there seems to be nothing inherent to the spell why it shouldn't be affected) - thus may some point change too.

What I'd find most ironic is - if the changes really come as some people fear - that we are right back where we started before all the numerous changes; a second level spell (Web) once more being the most effective form of CC shortly followed by Dancing Balls .... lots and lots of Dancing Balls to force repeated saves (since eventually mobs will roll low).