What happens to arcane CC?

[Engar1]

...we've also reduced the penalty epic trash has to their saves from the minion debuff (and chopped their hit point to about half of what they were before).

With saves high as it is and the need to spec and gear heavily for epic crowd control, does this mostly eliminate the use of spells with saves in epics?

I think all the crowd control spells have saves and if those saves go up even marginally the use of arcane crowd control may become ineffective or at least inefficient (multiple castings for minimal success).

I am trying to decipher the role of my caster in this new system. Kiting while melee pick one off at a time? DPS, single target perhaps to avoid the former choice? Buffs, like a bard but not at good? Perhaps add a few locked doors with intelligence runes into epic content? Do future DDO casters spec for tons of threat reduction and befriend the intimidate tanks (all three of them?). LOL, okay, I am *mostly* kidding here. But I really am a bit lost how to redefine the arcane casters' role (especially when considering multiple epic mobs and a loss of crowd control).

[Trillea]

With saves high as it is and the need to spec and gear heavily for epic crowd control, does this mostly eliminate the use of spells with saves in epics?

I think all the crowd control spells have saves and if those saves go up even marginally the use of arcane crowd control may become ineffective or at least inefficient (multiple castings for minimal success).

I am trying to decipher the role of my caster in this new system. Kiting while melee pick one off at a time? DPS, single target perhaps to avoid the former choice? Buffs, like a bard but not at good? Perhaps add a few locked doors with intelligence runes into epic content? Do future DDO casters spec for tons of threat reduction and befriend the intimidate tanks (all three of them?). LOL, okay, I am *mostly* kidding here. But I really am a bit lost how to redefine the arcane casters' role (especially when considering multiple epic mobs and a loss of crowd control).

Most likely it'll be like what we do in elite amrath for highest efficiency, or epic DA: put down persistent CC spells like disco balls and/or webs, and only throw the disabling spells when you have a group in one area. Methinks that the tier 5 enchantment SLA just may have gotten more appealing for those that break the CC early.

[Engar1]

Most likely it'll be like what we do in elite amrath for highest efficiency, or epic DA: put down persistent CC spells like disco balls and/or webs, and only throw the disabling spells when you have a group in one area. Methinks that the tier 5 enchantment SLA just may have gotten more appealing for those that break the CC early.

These spells you mention have saves as well. Low 40 dc's are not easily reached by most players, yet that is the level sought for higher end epics and are very useful to have in lower content as well. If that goes up to say mid 40's or upper 40's it would make CC unreliable or unachievable for most players.

Epics do not lend themselves well to face first tactics nor will healers tolerate it for long if epic snitch means drinking sp pots. Some have nooks to hide and nuke from and that can be effective, but some encounters or whole epics (like devil assault) are not so forgiving. I understand the desire to diversify away from 'mass hold', 'web', 'mass hold'... but what fills the cc void and how do casters adjust?

[Trillea]

These spells you mention have saves as well. Low 40 dc's are not easily reached by most players, yet that is the level sought for higher end epics and are very useful to have in lower content as well. If that goes up to say mid 40's or upper 40's it would make CC unreliable or unachievable for most players.

Epics do not lend themselves well to face first tactics nor will healers tolerate it for long if epic snitch means drinking sp pots. Some have nooks to hide and nuke from and that can be effective, but some encounters or whole epics (like devil assault) are not so forgiving. I understand the desire to diversify away from 'mass hold', 'web', 'mass hold'... but what fills the cc void and how do casters adjust?

I understand what you are saying, but epics are just that - epic. They are not made for general consumption. Hopefully this will be brought to light, and if the saves are raised, so be it. Epic quests are supposed to be DDO's penultimate challenges. If you can't make the marks, get the gear until you can.

[donfilibuster]

The issue is not trivial, player builds rely on these infos.
Apparently they are making it easier across all classes in exchange of nerfing the current tactic.

Currently melees rely on the caster's cc, but on u9 will intimi and take down minions fighting hand to hand.
Currently casters rely on cc instead of direct damages, but on u9 will be able to use damaging spells.

Obviously if you low down the monster defenses to allow damage from direct melee and offensive casting then cc cannot remain as it is or the fights will be a joke more than it already are.

This change improves the chances at epics for anyone that is not cc or crith specced.
The timing for u9 is so the new sorc and fvs PrEs can function decently in epics, which won't be possible as it is now.

[Chai]

We will need to know what the realistic DC to have is before we start hashing this one out. My working theory is the saves will be like old epic, but the HP will be a step above elite.

[Beethoven]

Epic quests are supposed to be DDO's penultimate challenges. If you can't make the marks, get the gear until you can.

Your point would hold true if epic mob AC would be raised to 90+, generally have improved evasion and/or resistances to damaging spells that need to be overcome.

Way things currently are there are no such marks for any class or pre /except CC specced casters. Barbarians, fighters, monks, rogues and any other class specializing in melee is able to hit epic mobs and do reasonable damage with only average end-game gear. Sorcerers (once the new pre and reduced hitpoints are in place) will be capable of doing decent damage without requiring any rare/hard-to-get items.

All of these cases epic and rare loot amplifies the respective toons capabilities, but even without it they remain useful.

What the OP is saying is that if save DCs against CC are raised too high it puts the CC specced caster in a unique situation where - unlike any other concept in the game - rare gear (+4 tomes, Litany, etc.) and (potentially multiple) TRs will become a requirement. What wouldn't be so bad if there would be a big warning during character generation that these type of toons have far higher requirements to be viable in end-game than any other class.

Currently casters rely on cc instead of direct damages, but on u9 will be able to use damaging spells.

It's called diversity. Why would an enchantment specced Archmage not rely on enchantment spells? Casters that rely on direct damage spells are commonly sorcerers.

Granted, this is all speculation still since we don't know by how much the DC will be raised. However, I can understand the cause for concern based on the announcement.

[yodino]

Woah, does this mean the end of enchantment based Archmages in Epic content? Is it time to shift to Necromancy or Evocation? Well Evocation Archmages generally means your a wanabee sorc, so that only leaves necromancy as an alternative - since the silver lining (if I understand it correctly) is that instant death spells will finally work in epics now. But then why go archmage when pale master already specializes in Necromancy?

I guess what I'm asking is where do Archmages go from here?

[ColdNapalm]

Okay I was working a CC wizard my first time around. Just starting out and NOT having access to litney or +4 tomes or a slew of stuff that you just don't get your first run through...I was having trouble hitting the DC as soon as level 15. Yeah I was woefully under-eqed...but hey it was my first character...that is to be expected. I'm not sure I like this idea of increasing the DC bit. Yeah with all the proper gear, you become a I win button...but even now, it is a mandatory that you need some good stuff to do it. Enough so that somebody who makes a CC wizard their first character will have some serious issues as is,..much less with amped DC. Course if they make the DC easier, it makes CC wizards god like because that's what CC does when it lands. Ah the joys of game balance.

You know what I'd rather see? Have enemies in high level quests have BUFFS. Have them have prot from evil up so they can't be charmed. Have FoM so they can't be held. And then lower the DC. Then it becomes an issues of dispelling those buffs before you can proceed...and have enemy casters replace dispelled buffs. Would make dispel magic line actually useful...and you can do CC without having to have uber gear.

[TigrisMorte]

... penultimate....

this means next to ultimate. So, what's the ultimate?

[Trillea]

this means next to ultimate. So, what's the ultimate?

It should be Epic raids, of which there are 2, neither of which is hard enough IMO. (Well epic VoN 5 comes very close, and is technically a raid) When the flagging quests are harder than the raids, there is a problem.

[Purgatory]

These spells you mention have saves as well. Low 40 dc's are not easily reached by most players, yet that is the level sought for higher end epics and are very useful to have in lower content as well. If that goes up to say mid 40's or upper 40's it would make CC unreliable or unachievable for most players.

Epics do not lend themselves well to face first tactics nor will healers tolerate it for long if epic snitch means drinking sp pots. Some have nooks to hide and nuke from and that can be effective, but some encounters or whole epics (like devil assault) are not so forgiving. I understand the desire to diversify away from 'mass hold', 'web', 'mass hold'... but what fills the cc void and how do casters adjust?

i run my caster at 48 dc, but then again i TRIII with bard life and wiz life and clr past life and bought so many festival coins i have 100's of abishi cookie sets to maintain that 48dc....

ya not many people gona be able to hang at 48, i could hit 49 if i ever get that +4 int tome and 50 with bard buffs

[Xyfiel]

1) drop all spell pen buffs and cc spells but web
2) Web, web, and more web.
3) nuke
4) ???
5) profit

If mobs get a save boost and lower hps, why not use gear/enhancements/feats for nuking and keep only the best cc spell in the game?

[Drailog]

*edit*
Int for D.C.
Human
18 base +5 level + 3 class enhancements + 1 racial enhancement + 4 tome + 7 item + 3 Exceptional Item + 2 capstone +1 Litany +2 shrine +2 yugo +2 store pots = 50 int (+20 mod)
Caster DC: 10 Base + 20 Int +9 Spell Level + 2 greater item + 2 Feats + 2 Primary Archmage +1 Wiz PL +1 Bard PL = 49

Drow
20 base +5 level + 3 class enhancements + 4 tome + 7 item + 3 Exceptional Item + 2 capstone +1 Litany +2 shrine +2 yugo +2 store pots = 51 int (+20 mod)
Caster DC: 10 Base + 20 Int +9 Spell Level + 2 greater item + 2 Feats + 2 Primary Archmage +1 Wiz PL +1 Bard PL +1 spell singer= 50

Other races
1-2 less DC


so if they raise the DCs higher you have to nearly have everything that can be done including buying ddo store items, which if this is what is forced upon us, forcing your consumer to buy something, turbine has fallen.

I say just make Hold monster and others like it do what they are supposed to.. CC only and no extra damage add, except sneak attack cause the mob is considered denied his dex bonus which means sneak attack.. except for against other rogues 4 levels higher

[andbr22]

How will it look -> check lv 25 Crystal cove
- I ONLY ONCE SEEN wizard that held monsters longer than 4 seconds (without few enerevations)
- Fire wall kiting (again) usefull
- Pale Master > Archmage
- 10 DR + dispalce is generaly enought to keep yourself alive
- Stunnings Forget (maybe if you hit high 40 or low 50 stunning, lower only will land on casters)
- Problematic for "lower to HIT" characters (as my mostly DEX ranger had to use improved destruction (with true shot) and after that could rerliably hit enemies).

And why I did made triple acid pick now -> to be usless until i TR maybe (because 35 Reflex will become laughtable for epics).

[Jaid314]

i'm confused...

why does the drow get a spellsinger and human doesn't? is this some previously unknown drow ability that i have simply not been aware of? and if so, how do i get the drow "summon spellsinger" ability? (i have a couple of drow casters, and would not mind a +1 DC and 10% SP reduction. does it come with free spellsong vigor too?)

[Aashrym]

i'm confused...

why does the drow get a spellsinger and human doesn't? is this some previously unknown drow ability that i have simply not been aware of? and if so, how do i get the drow "summon spellsinger" ability? (i have a couple of drow casters, and would not mind a +1 DC and 10% SP reduction. does it come with free spellsong vigor too?)

It usually comes free with me in the party but I'm feeling under enhanced on my PRE atm, so that's 1 less played character doing it on Ghallanda at least.

On the plus side, I'm actually interested in rolling up a FvS or playing my sorc again. Air specialization without opposing water or fire seems useful for a savant. Or go water and give up fire. Decisions, decisions

[Tomalon]

With saves high as it is and the need to spec and gear heavily for epic crowd control, does this mostly eliminate the use of spells with saves in epics?

I think all the crowd control spells have saves and if those saves go up even marginally the use of arcane crowd control may become ineffective or at least inefficient (multiple castings for minimal success).

I am trying to decipher the role of my caster in this new system. Kiting while melee pick one off at a time? DPS, single target perhaps to avoid the former choice? Buffs, like a bard but not at good? Perhaps add a few locked doors with intelligence runes into epic content? Do future DDO casters spec for tons of threat reduction and befriend the intimidate tanks (all three of them?). LOL, okay, I am *mostly* kidding here. But I really am a bit lost how to redefine the arcane casters' role (especially when considering multiple epic mobs and a loss of crowd control).

I guess you missed the memo a few updates ago, went something like this:

From now on casters will be haste/buff bots.....that is all!

j/k..but seems like it sometimes.