Changes in Epics and Implications for Assassins

[Tirisha]

Nonsense. They could easily have reused the current search/disarm/interact mechanic. Want to do a coup de grace? Then initiate the action and wait for the little yellow bar to make it across your screen (and hope you are not interrupted). And if the game engine can't handle that then treat is as spell casting action (with a fairly long casting time). Target the mob, "cast" the coup de grace spell, and wait for the "spell" to finish (which can also be interrupted). Either method could have worked.



One persons improvement is anothers detriment. We are talking about deviating from the PnP rules. You can say you don't like the change but don't claim it's because it deviates from the PnP rules. DDO already deviates from the rules plenty.

First I'm not sure how easily those mechanics would be implemented though they would cetainly add too the DnD feel their absences doesn't take away from it imo.

P.S.: I'm sry that it upsets you that I believe this change is a step away from DnD feel but I have every right to feel that way as much as you have the right to be upset by my opinion. My reasons are as follows:

First: I do agree that there are other aspects of the game that water down the dnd feel. So we agree on that point.

I believe that this change will draw away from the base mechanics of 3.5 DnD because:
This is not a variation of a rule. It is a completely different rule thrown into effect that had no place in any DnD rules/variations. you could argue that this balances the game and even it were true it would not take away from the fact that it is so Abstractly not related too 3.5 Mechanics. I personally don't see how it will balance anything. It will most likely just quell one monster while feeding another.

[Tirisha]

3 words: Coup de Grace

If you want to stick to the "Rules As Written" A full attack should instantly kill (DC 10+damage dealt, rogues' sneak attack damage is included in this calculation) a helpless enemy (including a paralyzed one)

Saying DDO should stick to the Rules As Written, without providing a better option, or discussing the countless diversions already codified in the current rules set really just come off as "Change is bad!"

you clearly misunderstand what I am saying I'm sry for this I try too be clear. I would suggest reading what I've wrote again and try to derive different meaning from it.

[Sheep_Stealer]

I think you're missing the point. Tir desn't like this change because it pulls the game *further* away from it's roots.
We're all well aware that DDO deviates from PnP rules. We'd be morons if we didn't know that.
Some people are OK with small changes in this manner. Some are not OK with it because every one of them takes us even further from those rules.
Tir is in the second group. So s/he can certainly say that's the reason that s/he doesn't like it.
Who are you to tell Tir what his/her reasoning should be?

Ok, I'll soften my statement slightly to: If someone is going to complain about a certain change pulling the mechanics further from their roots I'd like to see an explanation on why they think that, particularly in consideraton of all the other changes to the mechanics. Just saying it pulls it further from the roots isn't really a good arguement by itself.

For instance, the current autocrit rule doesn't jive with the PnP rules as it is. The PnP rules bascially give 2 scenarios for helpless targets: a regular attack that does regular damage but with a significantly improved chance to hit or, a full round action that auto crits with a chance of instant death. I don't see how a blanket +%50 to damage is any more different to the PnP rules than the current autocrit rules. They both diverge significantly from PnP and I think the new rule will fit in with the rest of the DDO changes a bit better (time will tell).

[Tirisha]

Aside from the removing threat/crit stuff I believe everything else I said is true for 3.5e. I may be a little off as 3.0 was the last edition I really played heavily but the general gist of my argument should hold. DDO is so far removed from the PnP mechanics that changing how autocrit works should be the least of your old feel DnD worries.

while most everything we have now is a variation of PnP rules. This new hold scenario is not a variation or modification of the rule it is a completely different rule right? That's what I'm saying.

You seem to agree with me. you seem to think this is a step away from PnP as well so I don't know what you're trying to tell me. I realize this isn't the only problem in the game. While there are other problems in the game that fact doesn't diminish the step this new mechanic will take.

[grodon9999]

same here grodon - my drow exploiter may be a rogue soon (he already even has a rad2 rapier).. this is your elf-sploiter right? what are you thinking you may do with the TR? (race, past life?, anything funky?)

Nothing too crazy, its depends on how stat damage will work.

[sephiroth1084]

Very close, but we're still letting vorpals do something...

, and changed instant-kill weapon effects to:

1) Kill the monster outright if it's at or below 1000 current hit points.
2) Deal a chunk of damage (that varies on effect type - vorpal deals more damage than disruption, but does it 1/20th as often) if the monster is over 1000 current hit points or is a boss. For example, if you 'vorpal' a monster that's above 1000 hit points, it will deal 100 extra untyped damage.

This cap is based on current hit points, not total hit points, so a damaged monster becomes vulnerable to weapon based instant death effects.

Assassin III is treated as a vorpal weapon, so is now hit point capped but now has an effect in high level content. Assassin II is treated as a death effect with an opportunity cost, so does not have any hit point related restrictions. You can go ahead and assassinate epic monsters (or monsters in previous death warded dungeons), but be warned that we've also reduced the penalty epic trash has to their saves from the minion debuff (and chopped their hit point to about half of what they were before).

Good change.
We've removed arbitrary inherent death wards from virtually all non-boss monsters in the game[/quote] It's about **** time! Personally, I think I'd rather there be something in between immune and not immune--some sort of mechanism besides saves on both sides of the d20--we're still immune to death effects nearly 100% of the time past a certain (fairly early) level, and this change doesn't solve that problem. Still, it's opening up options again, and that's an excellent thing.

Note that some monsters still cast Death Ward or Mass Death Ward. That hasn't changed, and if they actually have the spell on, it'll stop death effects as expected. We just removed the blanket immunity most high level trash had.

I'd like to see a lot more immunities get replaced with spells that get cast, even if those spells become a little more prevalent. Giving us the option of dispelling the buffs is much better than the monsters simply being immune. Currently, no one carries Dispel or Greater Dispel Magic except in a couple of specific situations. We carry Break Enchantment, but that shouldn't affect these buffs anyway. And no one carries Disjunction. If Dispel, Greater Dispel and Disjunction actually could serve an important function, it would emphasize the spell versatility of wizards and clerics a bit more, and would add another layer to the tactics we employ when dealing with monsters.

Something for later I guess.

and changed cooldowns.

More info please?

I like to spread around the traffic.

I [we] like when you do this as well.

I won't hide the fact that right now I am actually pretty concerned with how much rogue damage will be increased by Update 9. We'll be watching things, and there may be adjustments to certain abilities in the future. It's not this change that makes me worry about that as much as the helplessness one.

You know, I kind of like hearing this from you (the devs)--you make a change, that will clearly benefit us, but admit that it may be a bit much. We won't see a change to this in 4 months to a year coming out of the blue, with everyone up in arms about getting blindsided with a nerf, because we know up front that this is something you're concerned with. Honestly, I am as well. Rogues are tough to balance--they're the highest DPS, by a fair margin, in a lot of situations, but in other fall to the bottom, or almost to the bottom of the DPS chart with very little middle ground.

Auto-crit situations were that middle ground for a while, as other melees were adding more damage per swing that was getting multiplied. Now, the rogues are going to be at the top in this situation, and will be dealing a ton of damage. Simply removing the ability for SA damage to get multiplied just puts them back in the situation they were before, where they were top DPS vs. active creatures, and middle DPS vs. helpless stuff. I don't think that's terrible, but it lowers their stock a bit in epics. Now, if saves end up getting raised enough for most groups to no longer simply be plowing through quests by holding/stunning everything and auto-critting it down in seconds, then rogues remain pretty competitive for a DPS spot since the likelihood of stuff not being helpless all the time will be pretty high. That's a good place to be. I think I'd be in favor of removing the multiplication for SA.

May have to do the same for spell damage as well, particularly persistent spell damage, but maybe not. Adding a layer to caster tactics, where they Mass Hold then nuke, in order to make the nuking better is interesting, if a bit odd. I will say, though, that I'll miss using my Dreamspitter all the time.

So if I understand this correctly, any mob that has more than 1000 current hp, cannot be vorpalled, smited or disrupted until they go under the 1000hp mark? It seems like that is pretty much making vorpal useless as I cannot think of any situations where you would actually want to use vorpal as opposed to an actual DPS weapon, especially considering how 'expensive' a prefix it is (ie it's almost impossible to have a vorpal that also does anything resembling useful dps, other than what, 2 named items?)

Actually, using a vorpal in situations where a monster can be vorpaled becomes better than using a DPS weapon rather quickly as shown here:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ghlight=vorpal

We'd end up with the option of using DPS weapons all the way, using them until the monster is at around 1,000 HP and then switching, or just using vorpals. If the monster starts with much more than 1,000 HP, the first two options are probably better, but vorpals will continue to be useful, just not quite so much as they are in some places. Less powerful than they were, but not useless.

That's essentially how we arrived at the 100 number. We wanted it to be good, but we wanted Greater <x> Bane to also have a place.

Good call! It's nice to see the logic behind the decisions, and to see that you guys are running some DPS calculations when making these decisions--something some members of the community doubt much of the time in light of some other decisions/items/abilities.

That's a pretty good assumption. A very good one.

• Monsters that are helpless take 50% additional damage from all sources, including normal attacks, spells, or environmental effects (before damage reduction is applied). A critical hit on a helpless monster will deal 50% additional critical damage as expected.

• The one thing I dislike about this change is that it removes the niche that high crit multiplier, low threat range weapons have carved out for themselves. Much of the game emphasizes crit range over multiplier (or very good combinations of the two--khopesh). Helplessness had been the spot where greataxes and picks really shined. Now...not so much. In particular, there are a few weapons that should be pretty strong, but really ended up being only good for these scenarios (the Epic Hellstroke Greataxe vs. the Epic Sword of Shadows, for example), that should be adjusted to be more useful now that their starring role has been cut from the script.
• Players that are helpless take additional damage based on the dungeon difficulty:
  * Solo/Casual: +5%
  * Normal: +10%
  * Hard: +15%
  * Elite: +20%
  * Epic: +25%

[kyebosh]

What are you talking about? You are replying to a statement about possibly making Sneak Attack damage not multiplied by helpless status, which is very different from removing Sneak Attack opportunity from helplessness.

No. If the mentioned nerf goes ahead, a solo Rogue who reduces an enemy to zero Constitution will start getting automatic Sneak Attacks and +50% damage from weapon, strength, and PA.

Oh? My apologies then, misreading on my behalf.

I was listening until you said this.
A well built and played rogue already does out-DPS a barbarian. It isn't situational.
The situational part is when the rogue pulls aggro and then allows the barbarian to catch up.

Sorry, I guess I should've clarified. I meant to say between a Rogue & Barbarian of comparable build/gear/skill. Top shelf Rogues out DPS average Barbarians, but even the best sneaky's can't dish out situation independent like, eg Axer.

My my, gone are the days of niceness... Quite a sharp keyboard manner in here!

[sephiroth1084]

Sorry, I guess I should've clarified. I meant to say between a Rogue & Barbarian of comparable build/gear/skill. Top shelf Rogues out DPS average Barbarians, but even the best sneaky's can't dish out situation independent like, eg Axer.

Speaking of "situation independent" DPS is an entirely different statement, and still separate from what you're saying here.

Top shelf rogues out DPS everyone when they don't have aggro vs. a 0 Fortification target, including monstrous barbarians.

[Riggs]

I gotta ask ... what does "optimal" mean, as you are using it?

We can make comparisons between rapiers and khops and come out with khops being "optimal" ... by 3 to 10% (depending who you ask and how they do the calc).

How much more "optimal" is a hvy pick at the moment?

Translate;

"We all made GS heavy picks -and are mad they are being nurfed in epics, because no other parts of the game matter except certain builds in epics and crafted picks"

More options that are not terrible is a good thing. Khopesh should still be nurfed too somehow - despite the massive whine that would crop up - it was a massive mistake at the start - and the entire game was unbalanced by that one choice(well two counting SoS) - with everythign in the game being about auto crit and khopesh pretty much.

It looks like things are finally getting more balance - haters be darned.

[kyebosh]

Speaking of "situation independent" DPS is an entirely different statement, and still separate from what you're saying here.

Ahh I see what happened! My closing comment about Rogues & Barbarians was an entirely different statement, not relating to the Auto-crit issue at all. Sorry for the confusion.

Top shelf rogues out DPS everyone when they don't have aggro vs. a 0 Fortification target, including monstrous barbarians.

It's not situation independent then is it I was talking about melee combat in the most general of terms.

Back to topic: my perhaps poorly worded point was that if Rogues are losing Dice because we crit too high then I'd argue that 500-700pt crits for Barbs should also be "fixed". It appears I misread Eladrin though so the point may be moot.

[Angelus_dead]

"We all made GS heavy picks -and are mad they are being nurfed

That is a legitimate complaint. When the devs change a rule that invalidates a long-term choice the players have already made, they should offer those players a chance to go back and change their mind.

For example, a change which massively reduces the value of Greensteel picks should be released along with sending any character with a Greensteel pick a token to decide to melt it down back into the shards and ingredients. (Or maybe it should be a bit more limited, and just allow the properties of a GS pick / axe / hammer to be moved onto another GS blank weap)

[sephiroth1084]

Punctuation, line breaks, paragraphs and such help to emphasize when you are moving from one point to another, and when statements aren't related.

Also, there is so such thing about situation-independent DPS. At least no meaningful thing. Barbarians tend to be affected less by fortification than most other characters, but they are affected.

[Feithlin]

Instead of a flat +50% to damage on 'auto-crit' situation, we could imagine to factor in the damage multiplier, for example +(damage multiplier +2) x 10 = +40% for x2 weapons, +50% for x3 weapons and +60% for x4 weapons.
This way, high multiplier weapons would still have an advantage, but not as strong as before.

[doubledge]

whooooooo! now my paladin can actually solo epic trash, and won't have as much problems tring! tr1, here i come! (also, gonna slot silver into my scimitars, as that way, if i go pure paladin, i break pitfiend dr.)

[Failedlegend]

That is a legitimate complaint. When the devs change a rule that invalidates a long-term choice the players have already made, they should offer those players a chance to go back and change their mind.

For example, a change which massively reduces the value of Greensteel picks should be released along with sending any character with a Greensteel pick a token to decide to melt it down back into the shards and ingredients. (Or maybe it should be a bit more limited, and just allow the properties of a GS pick / axe / hammer to be moved onto another GS blank weap)

well maybe just maybe with crafting deconstruction comes Greensteel deconstruction

[azrael4h]

My concern is Turbine's trend to make things easier and easier every update. Easy games are no fun. Since DDO:EU, Turbine has made most of the game trivial.

But players on these boards immediately jump to The Grind. Oh, the game is too grindy. Epics are too grindy. Guess what: MMOs are grindy. Grinding is the core of the MMO. Reward for effort. More effort gives more rewards. Unemployed 20-somethings who play DDO 18 hours a day have better characters than people who work 12 hours a day and travel 5-6 days a month.

The thing is, Grind IS easy. Grinding Desert for a month for Spectrals or a Bloodstone is not hard. It is not challenging. It is not an effort. It is not fun. It is a BORING AS HELL GRIND. Every time you complain about the game getting to easy, you complain about the grind. Grind = Easy. Grind = No Fun. It is not reward for more effort, it is reward for living in your mother's basement and never seeing the sun (we hates it precious, yes we do!). Grind = ****-poor incompetent game design.

[moorewr]

That is a legitimate complaint. When the devs change a rule that invalidates a long-term choice the players have already made, they should offer those players a chance to go back and change their mind.

For example, a change which massively reduces the value of Greensteel picks should be released along with sending any character with a Greensteel pick a token to decide to melt it down back into the shards and ingredients. (Or maybe it should be a bit more limited, and just allow the properties of a GS pick / axe / hammer to be moved onto another GS blank weap)

Yeah, the analogy of eminent domain comes to mind..

As a technical matter I'm guessing (as in I don't know) that they need to have the processes for general gs deconstruction done to provide this special dispensation.

[Thrudh]

This is a simplistic view from a Min/Max'er's perspective.
Rapiers/scimitars/picks/kukris/whatevers are still perfectly viable weapons. Now they'll just also be viable in epics.
This is a good change IMO.

This. +1

[Thaxlsillyia]

Read till page 13. Baffled, mystified and confused. Somebody mind listing what the proposed changes in simple terms? yesh i have a lil squeaky ashashin)

What i gather from reading till now-
1. You can assassinate in epics but you are probably not going to land it due to higher saves.
2. Assassins potentially lose what their tier 3 gives them though it can still kick in (and chances are it will) after mobs are lower than 1000 hp.
3. a slight increase in the dps gap between us and THEM.
4. we might still lose it all

[azrael4h]

One thing I'm curious about, is the wording specifically mentions the critters being helpless. I wonder if this will be a buff to other, less used forms of crowd control, like Greater Command or Soundburst or Hypnotize. Afterall, those render a critter helpless in some way or another. Mass Hold is simply far more efficient to cast, and currently gives auto-crit. How about summoned Air Elemental knockdowns?

(Note: I didn't read through the entire thread so I don't know if it's been answered. I checked the dev tracker earlier, but didn't see anything on it specifically.)