Changes in Epics and Implications for Assassins

[Calebro]

Still a reduction. Now its merely a choice of two weapon types. Get your cookie cutters ready. Start stampin em out!!!

Hardly. All its doing is reordering picks in viable and effective rather than making them optimal. Nothing else is really more viable and effective than it was before.

With more optimal choices comes more builds for different purposes. D&D was never a game where one thing always wins out in every situation. In this incarnation as far as melee is concerned it continues to drift that way.

Remember where we are. We're in a thread tagged: Rogue.
Rapiers is the key here, as are shortswords, daggers, kukris, scimitars, etc. Any weapon weapon with a decent crit range and a x2 multiplier.
Rapiers are/were great for leveling, and then became all but useless in Epics with the atuo-crit scenarios that prevailed. With this change, the standard rogue weapon is no longer useless in epics. It is now just as effective as it ever was.
If you guys want to take this conversation into the Melee boards and complain that reduces options, I won't stop you. But here, in a rogue thread, it increases options.

[Ganolyn]

Remember where we are. We're in a thread tagged: Rogue.
Rapiers is the key here.
Rapiers are/were great for leveling, and then became all but useless in Epics with the atuo-crit scenarios that prevailed. With this change, the standard rogue weapon is no longer useless in epics. It is now just as effective as it ever was.
If you guys want to take this conversation into the Melee boards and complain that reduces options, I won't stop you. But here, in a rogue thread, it increases options.

Touche! Game, set and match Calebro!

[Engar1]

Yes, all exotics should have marginal advantages to encourage taking the feats (or in the case of class/race specific weapons to discourage other class/races).

PnP DnD is not and probably never has been a reasonable comparison to an MMO. In a quality PnP game story trumps statistics. A good DM will reward a player using a broken teacup as his primary weapon if it provides great entertainment and story value to everyone involved. That's easy to do with a few people where laughter, joy, and camaraderie define fun and interest. (Actually, even most PnP games seem more like MMO's now sadly, but that is MMO influence on the games and not the other way around).

With thousands of players and thousands upon thousands of interests and thousands and thousands upon thousands of goals, balance and equality allow diverse opportunity to take ownership which in turn create fun and interest. The other thousand players could mostly care less about a finely written back story, but they sure do not want you taking down a boss with a teacup after all the time they spent making greensteel. There is nothing wrong with that, rules need to be catered to the audience, balanced and altered by scale.

[Chai]

Remember where we are. We're in a thread tagged: Rogue.
Rapiers is the key here, as are shortswords, daggers, kukris, scimitars, etc. Any weapon weapon with a decent crit range and a x2 multiplier.
Rapiers are/were great for leveling, and then became all but useless in Epics with the atuo-crit scenarios that prevailed. With this change, the standard rogue weapon is no longer useless in epics. It is now just as effective as it ever was.
If you guys want to take this conversation into the Melee boards and complain that reduces options, I won't stop you. But here, in a rogue thread, it increases options.

Incorrect.

Rapiers were never useless in epics, they just werent optimal. Picks went from optimal to merely viable.

There are no options increases. You are acting like all other options never existed before when in fact, we have the same options we did before - they are simply reordered so that picks fall into the viable category instead of optimal.

If we want to be rules lawyesr and restrict the conversation to rogues only, lets rock and roll. The optimal choices used to be khopesh for crittable boss, and picks for crittable trash. Now its khopesh for everything crittable.

Optimal options have been reduced. Viable options stay the same. Where is this increase in options? It doesnt exist.

[SableShadow]

Optimal options have been reduced.

I gotta ask ... what does "optimal" mean, as you are using it?

We can make comparisons between rapiers and khops and come out with khops being "optimal" ... by 3 to 10% (depending who you ask and how they do the calc).

How much more "optimal" is a hvy pick at the moment?

[Engar1]

The increase in viable options (using the going terminology) comes from making critical rate matter.

[Calebro]

The increase in viable options (using the going terminology) comes from making critical rate matter.

Correct.
While leveling, a weapons effectiveness is based on it's crit profile. That crit profile is determined by multiplying it's crit range with it's crit multiplier.
In epics, all that mattered was crit multiplier. Range didn't matter.
By adding range back into the equation, high crit profiles that have a low crit multiplier are once again viable and effective options, whereas before they were not.

[Ganolyn]

I gotta ask ... what does "optimal" mean?

We can make comparisons between rapiers and khops and come out with khops being "optimal" ... by 3 to 10% (depending who you ask and how they do the calc).

How much more "optimal" is a hvy pick at the moment?

Basically it comes down to this (assuming I am getting all this correctly):

Right now (as a Rogue for Epics) you have the option of using a feat to spec Khopesh or going Heavy Pick for the x4 Crit multiplier during auto-crit (which is common in Epics).

Soon you will have the option of using a feat to spec Khopesh or just using most anything you like as the auto-crit dynamics will be different and no longer support current playstyles, but leveling the playing field a bit so there isn't such a glaring difference in what you use to kill mobs.

Some like this plan, others are dubious of it.

[Engar1]

On a held mob you currently auto-crit. That makes the x4 crit multiplier on a heavy pick extremely valuable (more so than the x3 on a khopesh). It also makes the increased crit range on other weapons useless.

If auto-crit is changed to +50% incoming damage then crit range is a factor and the crit multiplier loses advantage (as not every hit will crit).

[Raiderone]

One of which is basically given away to every player in the game after a day in Crystal Cove.

Yes and Daddy needs more toyes! Crystal Cove anyone!

So two Cutlass's or one Cutlass and the Smallblade?

[Engar1]

I actually think this is a more significant change for casters than for any melee. While it may make all martial weapons more equally viable (nerf crit multiplier and buff crit range), it dramatically changes the role, gear, spell choices, everything really for an epic caster. If mob saves are now that spells with saves are ineffective? Saves are good now, there is not a great deal of room for increasing them and still keep spells with saves functioning. I think all the CC spells have saves so are casters now there to kite mobs while melee pull and kill one at a time? Guess I will see what the caster channel has playing about this...

[QuantumFX]

That's essentially how we arrived at the 100 number. We wanted it to be good, but we wanted Greater <x> Bane to also have a place.

Has smiting been affected by this change? It would be nice for that Soverign Dragontouched rune to at least have some situational use in epics.

Also, it looks like the changes to helplessness is going to be a solid solution. (I think there may be some unintended negative effects to monks but I’ll get back to you on that after I see it on lammaland.) Any chance of Paralyzing weapons being reverted to their P&P versions so that they become “different but equal” to Weighted weapons?

[BlackSteel]

I actually think this is a more significant change for casters than for any melee. While it may make all martial weapons more equally viable (nerf crit multiplier and buff crit range), it dramatically changes the role, gear, spell choices, everything really for an epic caster. If mob saves are now that spells with saves are ineffective? Saves are good now, there is not a great deal of room for increasing them and still keep spells with saves functioning. I think all the CC spells have saves so are casters now there to kite mobs while melee pull and kill one at a time? Guess I will see what the caster channel has playing about this...

well geared casters and stun bots were able to CC before epic minions got the penalty to saves. with the change, epics became a snooze fest for those same characters (I knew several primarily caster players who grew bored and are taking a break due to lack of challenge at end game). Gathering up 20 or so monsters then casting a mass hold and a web while entertaining for the melee, wasnt so entertaining for the caster if the monsters have no chance of saving.

on stun for example you wanted ~50 for a good shot on most monsters before (fort save) before they got nerfed.

I agree with other posters tho, which path to take, and the viability of sorcs in general will depend alot on what spell changes we're going to see.

[Engar1]

I moved it to the caster channel, but I am a hardcore epic player with a caster and the round em up and hold em, its all so easy... that was kobold assault on elite bud, sorry. Epics take effort and work. Few casual players ever get dc's in the 40's. I am sure even your fighter friends all have spell dc's in the 60's, fart epic shards and are so **** bored you run naked through ToD without a healer. Feel free to proceed with the, "oh, you must not be very good stuff" or make up some accomplishments, either way is equally amusing.

[stoopid_cowboy]

I must be one of the few not reading too much into the changes.
I remember Update 5. The world was coming to an end and there would never be another TWF toon in the game. Anyone remember update 7? The update when dark monks were a thing of the past? I vote for giving the changes an honest try!!!!
There are a LOT really good things coming, and I am excited for the new changes. It also looks like I will be the only AssassinIII rogue TWF VacII heavy picks in EPIC's now.

Bring on U9!!!

yuda

[maddmatt70]

well geared casters and stun bots were able to CC before epic minions got the penalty to saves. with the change, epics became a snooze fest for those same characters (I knew several primarily caster players who grew bored and are taking a break due to lack of challenge at end game). Gathering up 20 or so monsters then casting a mass hold and a web while entertaining for the melee, wasnt so entertaining for the caster if the monsters have no chance of saving.

on stun for example you wanted ~50 for a good shot on most monsters before (fort save) before they got nerfed.

I agree with other posters tho, which path to take, and the viability of sorcs in general will depend alot on what spell changes we're going to see.

I just have to say that my poor little healing/cc bard just got the cc removed from her name as did 99% of sorcs. Its really only enchantment specced am or pm with a ton of feats, past lives, etc. that are still going to pull it off unless they are super geared out and super past lived out sorc/bards. I can think of only one cc bard on our server that will still be able to make noise ccing and about 10 sorcs that will be throwing mass holds willy nilly.

[Xorm]

So when they go into "helpless" state, I am going to assume that you are leaving out when they are paralyzed, dancing fascinated, halted, etc... etc... ????

[Xenus_Paradox]

The problem with picks is that they're far behind in non-autocrit situations- which is to say, all situations, post U9. Assuming identical base damage, and weapon properties that don't vary damage with critical multiplier, khopesh (19-20/x3) and scimitar/rapier (18-20/x2) are equal in damage output (whether or not Improved Critical is factored in).

19-20/x3: 10% chance for 300% damage, or +30%. With IC, it's double that, for 60%.
18-20/x2: 15% chance for 200% damage, or +30%. With IC, it doubles to 60%.
20/x4: 5% chance for 400% damage, or +20%. With IC, it becomes 40%.

Khopesh pulls ahead due to higher base damage (1d8 vs. 1d6, or 1 point of damage on average non-crit swing/3 points on a crit swing) and the existence (and high degree of effectiveness) of damage mods that scale by crit modifier, such as Anarchic Burst, Holy Burst, and Maiming. However, with picks being only 2/3s as damaging in terms of critical profile, as well as heavy picks only having 1d6 base damage (equal to scimitar/rapier), it falls behind by a large margin, even accounting for the extra d6 from alignment burst and Maiming.

The only real solution, according to my math, to make picks viable again is to increase their crit modifier to a whopping x5, which would put them ahead of scimitars/rapiers but slightly behind khopeshes until the Strength score of the wielder starts getting into the ludicrously high range, at which point picks start to pull ahead.

Of course, it's entirely possible that my math is flawed.

[BlackSteel]

I just have to say that my poor little healing/cc bard just got the cc removed from her name as did 99% of sorcs. Its really only enchantment specced am or pm with a ton of feats, past lives, etc. that are still going to pull it off unless they are super geared out and super past lived out sorc/bards. I can think of only one cc bard on our server that will still be able to make noise ccing and about 10 sorcs that will be throwing mass holds willy nilly.

agreed, if the saves go back to prenerf, you're only looking at what? a 50% shot of mass hold landing on most of the mobs on a sorc. a TR'd wizard will have a very high % still.

[Xenus_Paradox]

agreed, if the saves go back to prenerf, you're only looking at what? a 50% shot of mass hold landing on most of the mobs on a sorc. a TR'd wizard will have a very high % still.

Yeah... but their HP will be cut in HALF. Very important.