Major endgame changes!

[learst]

I haven't played a lot of epics, but here's my 2 cp. I have a capped bard with no GS, non-TRed, just some raid gear, and non-epic gear and most of my spells have a hard time landing except Otto's Irresistible Dance.

Some folks are worried bout the increased mob saves, and I am too. But I think this is a warranted step considering the new abilities coming up - e.g. the save debuffs of the FvS PRE. And now with Sorcs getting "Awakan Element Weakness" and buff to damage, whereby (presumably) that even if the mobs save on the sorc's DC, the mobs are still getting more damaged (and considering the mobs will have lower hp). Not to mention the introduction of new PREs in the past year e.g. Bard PRE II, archmages/palemaster etc, monks getting debuffing abilities.

I guess from now in Epics it will require a variety of classes/roles to get things done, not just an arcane to CC, melees to hit on autocrit, and a healer. I assume that moving onwards, the idea of debuffing mobs will play a bigger role.

[Malithar45]

Super short duration would be an awful solution. It'd effectively means an Enchanter gets to decide to use a more expansive spell to immobilize a mob for a super short duration (Hold) or a cheaper spell to immobilize a mob for a significant longer duration (Dancing Ball). The only real reason to use Holds was to cause additional damage - with the lowering of mob hp and additional spell damage and removal of auto-crit this may no longer be a factor either.

We know their solution now, my guesses were posted prior to that. I agree with you 100%, but you yourself said exactly why I felt that way in the bolded above. :P I felt that if holds were less lengthy (super short duration wasn't very descriptive, I was thinking 5-8 seconds), perhaps we'd see more webs, dances, hypnos, etc while holds were used specifically for a short term damage boost to help drop something quicker, rather than how it is now with a single mass hold generally lasting long enough to DPS down an entire group of enemies.

Optimistic for the changes overall, though with 50% HP, +50% damage when helpless, and a generalized buff to our means of killing (instant death effects, possibly 0 stating if they nerf Epic Ward in more ways than just DW, etc). Seems to hinge purely on the degree of the increase to their saves. If its high enough that well built and equipped Enchantment Archmages have <80%ish Holds, I can't imagine that'll be the go-to tactic anymore, specially if the caster is lacking in the DCs compared to a decked out one. Perhaps Helpless will just be a nice thing to have access to, and not needed with their reduction in HP. Use other forms of more reliable CC and just DPS down, taking down any held/stunned ones as an opportunity kill, rather than requiring it on all mobs.

[NaturalHazard]

Was there any mention in the changes of making AC worthwhile in epic? Like ac in the high 70's to low/mid 80's?

[vVAnjilaVv]

Once again DDO is about what will make the majority of the playerbase happy.....not what the hardcore powergamers want.

This game went f2p......it is no longer an exclusive place where only subs can play and only the low % of MMO'ers who could handle the game before it was f2p stuck it out.

This game is a lot about revenue, now if u want the game to go back to hardcore again and survive, expect to start paying 3-4 times ur current subscription price.


I think there comes a time when players need to find a way to challenge themselves......either by not twinking toons, or taking a break and playing another game so this is fresh again to them, starting fresh on a new server for a while....etc......while epic should be the ultimate challenge...it should not be so exclusive that you must have a cookie cutter build, all the "right" gear in every possible slot, and all the other over-demanding requirements just to be allowed in a group.

I have played a long time, I consider myself a very good player, I was denied a guild Epic run because my wizard was not enchantment specc'ed and a PM, I'm sorry but when things get to that point things need to be "dumbed down". It's a well known great guild too that knows I am a good player.

I didn't come here to spread guild drama, just using a prime example of how epic really brings out the elitist in a lot of players......it's even starting to show a lot in CC 25 runs....and heck that's not even "real" epic content.

[mystafyi]

.it's even starting to show a lot in CC 25 runs....and heck that's not even "real" epic content.

LOL.. we are already running cc@lvl25 (300 shards easy) with level 12-15 toons on orien... I wish we could run epics @lvl 12+...

[Malithar45]

I consider myself a very good player, I was denied a guild Epic run because my wizard was not enchantment specc'ed and a PM

No offense meant, but I'd either be looking at my build and figuring out if your DC's on CC just aren't up to snuff (PM's are plenty capable of hitting good DC's, ran with quite a few myself, though admittingly I've run with even more PM's that were pure fail...masters..) or I'd be looking for a new guild. I've never personally been in a guild that turned away anyone that was capable of filling the roll, even if they were on the low end (battle clerics for DPS, 2x light monks as healers in epics, acrobats, AAs, etc) for the roll. That's less an effect of epic and more so of people's perception of what is and isn't needed.

[vVAnjilaVv]

No offense meant, but I'd either be looking at my build and figuring out if your DC's on CC just aren't up to snuff (PM's are plenty capable of hitting good DC's, ran with quite a few myself, though admittingly I've run with even more PM's that were pure fail...masters..) or I'd be looking for a new guild. I've never personally been in a guild that turned away anyone that was capable of filling the roll, even if they were on the low end (battle clerics for DPS, 2x light monks as healers in epics, acrobats, AAs, etc) for the roll. That's less an effect of epic and more so of people's perception of what is and isn't needed.

37 dc on enchantments currently with betwen 27-29 spell pen depending on level of spell. I mean seriously if that is gonna keep me out of epics I think they need to be dumbed down a bit. This is without ToD gear, a Dreamspitter, or a +3-4 tome. If you need to acquire all of that just to be epic eligible, it's out of reach for a lot of players.

Not to mention if you know what your doing which I do, PM are very survivable and can self heal if properly geared.

Once again the question is was Epic solely made for the hardcore players that have 10-16 hours a day to play or were they meant for everyone to enjoy. It seemed like at first Epic was indeed targeted at power-gamers.....but now that more and more of the "new" crowd are reaching 20 in larger numbers and more frequently, DDO shoots themselves in the foot if they make it practically off-limits to them.

Now the question is with the changes to death effects in upcoming Epic should I tell my guild to go stick it when all the sudden a PM becomes a part of the path of least resistance?

Really, if the total class pool is comprised of A-K......and build selection is comprised of #1-3......and currently all of those cannot be viable in every Epic quest......then quite simply Epic is broken....and hopefully what they are doing is fixing it, not dumbing it down.

And ur right about the perception on my guilds part as well, thing is I have been in and out of a lot of guilds, eventually u find out there are great people in the guild and jacka**es in the guild, kind of tired of looking for the perfect guild because it's not out there, I'm not going to crucify all the great players in this guild because of a few morons....not to mention our guild leader runs a great ship. I even had people in that very run pm'ing me telling me they wanted me to come......but I wasn't going to go out of pity because they felt bad.....thing is I know I could have contributed to that run, but I guess it would have melted way to many brain cells for a couple new tactics to be thought up.

It is a perception thing, ur right, a lot of players just want their scrolls, shards, seals, and tokens in the quickest easiest possible way.....which eventually leads to unreasonable profiling and a real lack of fun. I mean people have the right to filter how they want, but again, Turbine risks breaking a certain part of this game once again if adjustments are not made.

[moorewr]

Yeah, 37 is low, but we shouldn't overstate the problem. You're looking at landing your holds, etc. less than half the time in places like eChrono.

No question epic, as is, narrows down the viable builds too much. You need an enchantment DC of ~40 to be effective, because mass hold is what arcanes do in epics (except where wall of fire is effective, etc).

Sorcerers and non-archmages can, of course, hit effective DCs, but only with specialized gear, a focus feat or two, etc. I was in a guild eChrono recently where the sorc had the same DCs as my archmage... but the expectation is that a PM wont have those DCs.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Yeah, 37 is low, but we shouldn't overstate the problem. You're looking at landing your holds, etc. less than half the time in places like eChrono.

No question epic, as is, narrows down the viable builds too much. You need an enchantment DC of ~40 to be effective, because mass hold is what arcanes do in epics (except where wall of fire is effective, etc).

Sorcerers and non-archmages can, of course, hit effective DCs, but only with specialized gear, a focus feat or two, etc. I was in a guild eChrono recently where the sorc had the same DCs as my archmage... but the expectation is that a PM wont have those DCs.

Well that's exactly my point....that means Epic is completely broken.....and/or people are to unwilling to think up alternative tactics.

If all casters are good for in Epics most of the times is spamming Mass Hold that is just...to put it bluntly.......completely destroyed.

Sorry but one trick ponies are not impressive builds at all IMO.

[Malithar45]

and/or people are to unwilling to think up alternative tactics

That's pretty much it there. 37 Hold DC while on the low end isn't a deal breaker, least IMO. Plenty of epics that a DC in that range is still plenty useful, while the mentioned eChrono would surely give you trouble. There's plenty of other strats possible in most epics, web/dance/hypno, melees stun, hell beat stuff down without any form of helplessness. You kinda said it in those words above. Mass Hold is just the easiest tactic to go with. There's certainly epics where Hold isn't the main tactic such as eClaw. Many others, Carnival, House D, and some of Red Fens where its not really needed, as long as there's some form of CC to control the mobs.

It really is kind of a one trick pony as far as CCing goes, but the options you have for that can vary. Really depends on who you're running with too though, slacking in the helpless department can be picked up by earthgrab weapons, anyone with stunning fist/blow, or just a strong enough DPS group to power through CC'd mobs that aren't helpless. Not sure which epic you were denied entry in for that guild group, but I wouldn't really sweat it. I still deal with people who act all shocked when I argue with them that just because I'm a Rogue doesn't mean I'm useless since they've got one. :P Just ignorance and the accepted tactics of the masses. Many feel that its mass hold or bust.

I'd for sure work towards improving your DC though, not that its unworkable, but its the same as striving for better DPS, better HP, etc. Allows you to break that barrier and be capable of more.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Yeah.....I am planning at least one if not all three TR's on my wizard for max spell pen and I will pick up 1 DC there for the purchasable past life feat.

I have no ToD stuff yet nor a +3 tome......that's another 2 DC, and an Eardweller or Dreamspitter makes it a total of 4 more DC.

That would bring me to 41 DC.......store and yugo potions and in real desperation House D potions would be another 3 I guess......this seems like quite an extreme at that point just for spells to be effective in Epic.

I didn't have the room for Spell Focus Feats for enchantment in my current PM build and with the purchase of the past life feat on my TR I definitely won't.

41 is gonna have to cut it....if it can't I could care less about doing epics.

[cdemeritt]

I just hope they fix the number of terrain exploits that exist at the same time.... Seems wrong to be able to skip 95% of a quest, in most epics I've run so far...

[moorewr]

40 Enchant DC is AOK for minions - that's what I have w/o Yugo pots (I'm 18w/2 rogue, and my past life is sorc, not wiz, so I have left 2 DC on the table, and another 1 by being warforged v., say, drow). I tend to cast Mass Hold/Free Hypno/Mass Hold, but when that's done there are pretty blue circles everywhere.

[Krag]

Hesitant on this. I suppose it depends on what all they're counting as zero opportunity cost, Void IV, Assassin III, Assassin II's Assassinate, Vorp, Finger, Wail, Destruction, Implosion, mob specific death effects, etc, will need to see what they count as a cost. Can't say I'm personally for the change. I'd rather not see Rogue's get nerfed down the line, and we're already borderline such a level of over powerness, IMO. Free vorps would just push us over in endgame. Then again, we'll need to see what these changes to the effects are. Since they lack DW, maybe they're gaining some sort of effect that adds a save to any zero opportunity death effect.

Unless I missed something major, rogues have no reason to worry.

- One of the major rogue weaknesses was the lack of Stunning Blow. SB will be severely nerfed in U9.
- Sneak Attack is changed to deal additional damage on stunned/held mobs. This is a major boost.
- Assassin III will not work (???) on epic mobs. So what? It never did.

[Malithar45]

Read the rest of the quote. :P Of the things we're good on, IMO we're almost too good, not to flaunt an ego or anything. With this change, we're gaining more than most other classes by gaining an additional 50% SA damage on helpless mobs, as well as getting the equivalent of another +5 damage per hit on nearly everything from the Vorpal procs, as well as being able to vorp epic trash now as long as their current HP is below 1,000.

In the quoted part, I didn't mean I didn't want to get nerfed now, because what we're getting most certainly isn't a nerf. I meant down the line in a few updates, I don't want to see a nerf that over reaches and sets us back several paces.

[Volaxis]

Actually epic is for the hardcore players, thats why its called epic and not casual, its not for the 80% of people with low dc's like 37. I came in at f2p and had no trouble hitting a 40dc without drow, currently 43 which was a little harder but it gave me something to work towards. Considering 60% of people cant even hit level 20, and when they do they dont run epics. You cant make the argument that if your not up to scratch you have to make the quest easier. What they need to do is give elite better rewards as a stepping stone to epics.

Also that 20% of hardcore players contribute more money then you think, they are the ones buying 1k stacks of pots, bigger boats, armor kits because the diabolist docent is so ugly etc. There is no way a casual player would want to spend that much money on the game.

[nicro]

Actually epic is for the hardcore players, thats why its called epic and not casual, its not for the 80% of people with low dc's like 37. I came in at f2p and had no trouble hitting a 40dc without drow, currently 43 which was a little harder but it gave me something to work towards. Considering 60% of people cant even hit level 20, and when they do they dont run epics. You cant make the argument that if your not up to scratch you have to make the quest easier. What they need to do is give elite better rewards as a stepping stone to epics.

Also that 20% of hardcore players contribute more money then you think, they are the ones buying 1k stacks of pots, bigger boats, armor kits because the diabolist docent is so ugly etc. There is no way a casual player would want to spend that much money on the game.

So what portion of the game is for the other 80% of players once they hit 20?

[Khellendros13]

So what portion of the game is for the other 80% of players once they hit 20?

Probably run the actual quests and raids that will allow them to hit 40-42 DC.

Run Reavers for Dreamspitter, or Dreaming Dark quests for Eardweller, ToD for Rings or work on crafting a +3 exc int weapon from Shroud, work on DT armour, VoD for glacier set etc.

That is plenty to do and work towards - Why should Epic be easy for those that don't do the raids and quests that come before Epic?

EVERYONE that is successful and performs well in Epics, be it melee arcane or divine, has done this already.

[Trillea]

Probably run the actual quests and raids that will allow them to hit 40-42 DC.

Run Reavers for Dreamspitter, or Dreaming Dark quests for Eardweller, ToD for Rings or work on crafting a +3 exc int weapon from Shroud, work on DT armour, VoD for glacier set etc.

That is plenty to do and work towards - Why should Epic be easy for those that don't do the raids and quests that come before Epic?

EVERYONE that is successful and performs well in Epics, be it melee arcane or divine, has done this already.

/qft

[vVAnjilaVv]

Actually epic is for the hardcore players, thats why its called epic and not casual, its not for the 80% of people with low dc's like 37. I came in at f2p and had no trouble hitting a 40dc without drow, currently 43 which was a little harder but it gave me something to work towards. Considering 60% of people cant even hit level 20, and when they do they dont run epics. You cant make the argument that if your not up to scratch you have to make the quest easier. What they need to do is give elite better rewards as a stepping stone to epics.

Also that 20% of hardcore players contribute more money then you think, they are the ones buying 1k stacks of pots, bigger boats, armor kits because the diabolist docent is so ugly etc. There is no way a casual player would want to spend that much money on the game.

60% of the people can't hit level 20, I'd like to know where you got that from. Maybe 60% of the people who can't afford a sub, or can't buy TP's for more content.....I doubt very much if they have the ability to do either of those things that hitting 20 is pretty much a problem for less than 10% of that playerbase

37 DC is not low, it may be low for Epics but that's because Epics as it is are absurdly overpowered.

If you claim so many people who get to 20 don't even bother with Epics that kind of proves the point that in general they are too exclusive. Endgame was not meant only for the people who have 10+ hours a day to play the game.

Endgame in this game is not even fun, if you don't meet certain numbers and have specific equipment you get denied even tho you could contirbute in many ways, people find there rut, get stuck in it and think they are some kind of super players when in reality all they did was basically monopolize the way specific quests HAVE to be done.

This is not skill, it's conformity, the only people with that actual skill were the pioneers who came up with the "absolute" method of running said quest.....everyone else are just drones who know how to copy well.

Prime example...look at the gigantic whining thread about the spell pass.....a great indication of how little skill some people have and how much they hate having to re-conform to new techniques.....which they lack as a skill altogether.

Why do they hate the new changes so much, because they have to wait for the actual great players to pioneer new methods...and then they have to go read all about it and adapt, and god forbid anything should delay their precious pursuit of obtaining that prized piece of loot they are so entitled to.