Major endgame changes!

[Trillea]

<snip>

There are a bunch of changes being made that will have major impact on Epic (and other high level) content. The hit points of epic trash are getting reduced significantly. Death wards have been removed from non-bosses in nearly all high level content (though some changes have been made to "zero opportunity cost" death effects to prevent levels 17+ from become purely vorpal-fests). Changes have been made to social skills (some of which has been discussed). Changes have been made to the helpless state to make it affect all damage sources, but makes the state a bit less game-breaking. Many spells have been modified to make them more in-line with expected efficiency.

More details will be forthcoming shortly.<snip>

This is much overdue and MUCH appreciated. I am sure that whatever we see on update 9's release will be tweaked, but this is a GREAT first step. Looking forward to seeing it!

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Sounds like a step in the right direction to me. I think Epic is a chore as it presently exists.

[Malithar45]

The hit points of epic trash are getting reduced significantly.

Most trash wasn't an issue, IMO, even if not CC'd. Sure, it'd take maybe 10-15 sec to beat down a mob, but that's not so rough. Will be interesting to see how significant "significantly" is.

Death wards have been removed from non-bosses in nearly all high level content (though some changes have been made to "zero opportunity cost" death effects to prevent levels 17+ from become purely vorpal-fests).

Hesitant on this. I suppose it depends on what all they're counting as zero opportunity cost, Void IV, Assassin III, Assassin II's Assassinate, Vorp, Finger, Wail, Destruction, Implosion, mob specific death effects, etc, will need to see what they count as a cost. Can't say I'm personally for the change. I'd rather not see Rogue's get nerfed down the line, and we're already borderline such a level of over powerness, IMO. Free vorps would just push us over in endgame. Then again, we'll need to see what these changes to the effects are. Since they lack DW, maybe they're gaining some sort of effect that adds a save to any zero opportunity death effect.

Changes have been made to the helpless state to make it affect all damage sources, but makes the state a bit less game-breaking.

Definitely interested in how this has been made to be less game breaking. Super short duration or damage % cap before breaking would be my guesses. Good to see that everyone can take advantage of the extra damage, though casters generally have more important things to save their SP for. Will be interesting to see if this plus the reduction in HP makes casters even more capable of soloing. :P

More details will be forthcoming shortly.

Send in Fernando already, he's late. =P

[xTethx]

Hopefully them lowering the HP results in epic actually getting harder. Increase their saves, give them fortification, more resistances, etc. I'd hate to see epic get even more dumbed down then it already is.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Hopefully them lowering the HP results in epic actually getting harder. Increase their saves, give them fortification, more resistances, etc. I'd hate to see epic get even more dumbed down then it already is.

QFT...well said.

[Cyr]

Hopefully them lowering the HP results in epic actually getting harder. Increase their saves, give them fortification, more resistances, etc. I'd hate to see epic get even more dumbed down then it already is.

Based upon the direction development has been heading steadily since EU came out I think it most likely that we are seeing more dumbing down.

I also base my above assumption on what information we have at this point. Funny that we get a nerf to a metagame strategy that is generally used because of the very things that are also being changed.

[Shade]

eh edit.. Ill move this rather long winded suggesiton to its own thread.

[grodon9999]

They have a new AI engine in the works as well. If the mobs were smarter they could be more danagerous with fewer HP/immunities.

Shade's right, it's all speculation and the devil is in the details. It'd be nice if the devs threw us a larger (gnawed) bone.

[elujin]

guess il hold off on the soultrap Gs

[grodon9999]

guess il hold off on the soultrap Gs

LOL I just made a pair of earth-grabs and I'm SO glad they were Khopeshes and not picks

[xTethx]

Without knowing the exact details, we can't say anything at all about this without the Disclaimer: Ths is all speculation.

Eladrin was far too vague to really tell if this would be a good change at all.

If it means you can vorapl things on epic, and Hp remain high..

It just utterly destroys the entire purpose of any DPS build what so ever.. Everyone should just be monks/tempest rangers with vorpals and str/power attack/stat/gear/etc are a waste of time.

So while the monks and tempest may love the change, not everyone will.

There is no 1 way to make epic fun for everyone. People have fun in this game in different ways. Whats fun for me, is not always fun for other players, and vice versa.

Thats why epic ffailed. Not because its hard, not because of immunities, because it was designed for a very small subset of the player base.

The proper way to fix epic isn't to nerf it into oblivion like it sounds like Eladrin will be doing..

It's to offer it to more players.

It can't be just 1 difficulty setting above elite. Elite alone is far too difficult for most players on the only lvl20 dungeons we have (Dreaming Dark, ToD). To make it appeal to a wider variety of builds/players:
It has to offer difficulty settings.

The fix imo is obvious and easy and I have no idea why they havent considered it:

Make Epic a level scaling toggle box, not a difficulty setting. Check it on or off, dungeon is "epic" .. But normal/hard/elite options remain unchanged and available in the same ui. (the ui for epic actually used to work like this anyways, tho it was a bug)

Normal epic would be what Eladrin is proposing: Monstrs use wet nodles against players. Vorpals to your hearts content. Zerg, wail of the banshee, Win fast, win easy. Loot for everyone. Yay!
Hard epic would be similar to what we have now with the newer epics.
Elite epic would be what epic was originally intended to be in update 3: Balls hard, kicks you in the teeth and makes you wish you were never born. I want it. I dont want the new baby epic.

Hopefully they do that with the toggable levels they will be introducing.

For example:

level 21 - easy non deathwarded mobs with scaled down hp, can solo it in 5-10 mins w/o using 1/2 mana bar.

level 22 - deathwarded mobs with scaled down hp, prolly the norm for average pug that doesnt feel like a challenge

level 23 - current epic implementation, no changes

level 24 - old epics, with increased saves, no "minion status"

level 25 - new "EPIC", same as 24, but traps are scaled like old ones (yes the big number traps), all trash comes with upgraded AI (i.e. caster throws haste on stuff, cleric throws fom and bigger heals), melees throw trips and stuns on our melee then go after casters; they also come with 50% fort, and slight regen on hp; the point is to make it tough and a nuissance

[Alerax]

"(though some changes have been made to "zero opportunity cost" death effects to prevent levels 17+ from become purely vorpal-fests)."

Awwww

[Irinis]

Less boring autoattack = good. Even if I have the feeling I'll miss the good old days of zero-tactic epics.

Increase the saves? I hope not. It's already bad enough that a wizard needs to TR a few times to be viable in epics AND be human for the extra feat for the extra DC, and sorcs need love too. Hopefully the range of difficulty levels will enable content to be challenging for the multiTR top end and still viable and fun to play on a semi-geared first life in a good party.

I also really hope that instant death spells and abilities are given some kind of damage on a save.

[grodon9999]

Less boring autoattack = good. Even if I have the feeling I'll miss the good old days of zero-tactic epics.

Increase the saves? I hope not. It's already bad enough that a wizard needs to TR a few times to be viable in epics AND be human for the extra feat for the extra DC, and sorcs need love too. Hopefully the range of difficulty levels will enable content to be challenging for the multiTR top end and still viable and fun to play on a semi-geared first life in a good party.

I also really hope that instant death spells and abilities are given some kind of damage on a save.

They can't allow insta-kills and leave the saves as low as they are. It would be easier to wail/FoD than it is in Normal Amrath.

[Irinis]

They can't allow insta-kills and leave the saves as low as they are. It would be easier to wail/FoD than it is in Normal Amrath.

In Amrath everything has GH. In Epic, everything should also have GH, just like a prepared and buffed party of players. Just hoping it's balanced from there. Although if, as someone suggested before, death spells give damage if the death effect doesn't happen, that could help a lot for people not specializing in necro. What I do see, is the opportunity for debuffs, different tactics, a wizard who can't necro doing enchant and one with evocation still having SOMETHING they can use to help their party complete. This is really exciting news!

I'd personally like to see normal Amrath a little easier and elite Amrath harder but I figure that wouldn't be popular with the bored and jaded ubers who never have to pug with undergeared newbs (unless they want the entertainment).

[Qindark]

eh edit.. Ill move this rather long winded suggesiton to its own thread.

oh dear, just as I was giving you +1 for the post.

[Beethoven]

Death wards have been removed from non-bosses in nearly all high level content (though some changes have been made to "zero opportunity cost" death effects to prevent levels 17+ from become purely vorpal-fests).

It's hard to really say anything of substance about this without knowing numbers and details. Changes could mean that vorpals (or assassins) become the way to go for epic trash; it could mean both get nerfed to the degree they (vorpal strikes) become subpar to plain dps in every case.

Changes have been made to the helpless state to make it affect all damage sources, but makes the state a bit less game-breaking.

What was game breaking about it? It'd be "game-breaking" I'd have expected to see these spells being used throughout the content. Mass Hold (for instance) worked just fine in the Vale and Amrath but wasn't generally considered the one superior tactic in these areas.

High DC Archmages used Wail, Dancing Ball and single target death spells (Finger, PK) as much if not more in the Vale. Amrath, Dancing Balls and Webs see often more use than just Mass Hold.

It became a superior tactic only in epic and for the sole reason of mob hitpoints. Without enemy hitpoints being a factor (or auto-crits) Dancing Ball is in many ways superior. It operates at the same DC. It is persistent. It cannot be "dodged" (by devils teleporting or mobs running behind a corner). It can force repeated saves from mobs as the spell requires a save every time they enter/leave.

Super short duration or damage % cap before breaking would be my guesses. Good to see that everyone can take advantage of the extra damage

Super short duration would be an awful solution. It'd effectively means an Enchanter gets to decide to use a more expansive spell to immobilize a mob for a super short duration (Hold) or a cheaper spell to immobilize a mob for a significant longer duration (Dancing Ball). The only real reason to use Holds was to cause additional damage - with the lowering of mob hp and additional spell damage and removal of auto-crit this may no longer be a factor either.

So, in other words everyone only can take advantage of the extra damage if the spell is not nerfed to the extend where it simply becomes an inferor choice compared to other CC spells. Then no one gets to benefit from it because no one is going to cast it to begin with.

Myself I think a better solution would be to only remove special crit-effects being triggered when beating a helpless mob (ie: level-drain) but leave the crit damage part alone. It'd still leave heavy-pick wielders and wisdom-based monks their niche while addressing the "game-breaking" / overpowered part of Mass Holds.

[elujin]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=15

from the assassin thread

my guess would be they up the save dc's and give dmg effects on failed saves depending on hp for casters too

[parvo]

Why does it matter if epic is a vorpal-fest? Surely it will be some kind of fest one way or the other. One thing "normal" play will not be is a well balanced thought-fest where the party is challenged to come up with unique and interesting ways to tackle a challenge.

[Volaxis]

Well all I hope for is they make epics harder, as it stands we can run through any epic with our eyes closed, and its boring. The thing I crave most is a challenge. Also if you make the loot to easy to get we will have everything in a week, game over. I do hear some people who don't play much want to have all the best stuff easy but they should be content will completing on elite. As to the vorpal thing, should a 8str toon be able to cleave off a monsters head? If epic is nerfed I'd like to see a new level of ultra epic.