36 points Horc Rogue with Kopeshes

[Lemanchot]

For any situation in which you're doing less than absolute-balls-out-max-dps for fear of taking aggro, the subtle backstabbing line gives you more dps than any other enhancement you can possibly spend AP on.

Your dps vs these bosses will increase if you take subtle backstabbing instead of the horc str line, or instead of assassinIII, or instead of anything else.

You should really reconsider taking more of the subtle backstabbing line or fitting in more hate reduction to your gear setup.

Cheers,
Kernal

I eleborate this theory over a PUG with a hate tank w/o claw set. Personally it doesn't happens to me. Had some friend who was curious about my current rogue build and I felt to share my ultimate rogue build. Also I'd like to notice the fact I took only 2 lifes only to show over 36 points build. DDO Larha on Ghallanda in 2-3 months you'll see

this build is absolutely insane, any rogue should max con before putting any points into int or cha.

Hi sir you should look up at some math table I done earlier instead to stop my constitution "12 cons zomg newb! let's flame him!".

You can do traps all day and teleport until you get a nosebleed if you start with 8 Int and 6 Cha. You see, there are thresholds you need to reach for traps and UMD, and when you have reached them anything invested above those thresholds is a waste.

HP on the other hand there is no threshold for. Especially if you can get extra HP for no cost.

Second, you should consider laying of some of that cheek. Or don't ask for advice if you do not have sufficient self-confidence to be able to take it without becoming defensive.

Thanks for being that analytical, My Psy went on vacation and you might do the job for awhile wouldn't you?

let's be honest, I wasn't looking for advice I'm showing a "Skilled Traumatic Surgeron" Build.

You don't like it?! fine we heard you! Happy?! Because I listen to you and I answer you and I think it should make you happier!

12 int makes it sufficient for any traps I'll encounter in most "Treshold" I'll face at my level (even on epic mode) so yes it's needed.

Charisma modifier is also needed to not suffer much on UMD skill as an Horc and by then I start to do this build there will be a change on "Bluff" and Diplomacy skills. Which you probably also know too. Although I didn't boost these skills in that current build I might consider to do in further if the new changes applied will be enough to convince me.

I heard somewhere that this very same build on a first life non horc is capable of dying 5 times in Von5 normal.

When I was young my mom told me there was a proper time to speak and to shut up ! I dare you Dingal you better never do 1 goofy stuff when I'm there or I'll make you pay back for this!

tehres no such thing as sufficient hp

Tihs si ture!

his dd, search, and umd, however, WILL be sufficient.

With 12 int and 11 charisma of course it will! Thanks for worrying about it very kind of you! You should seek some other thread requiring your help.

Did I say thank you? if not please bears out with my manners... THANK YOU

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Ok guys, I'll have to do some maths for you since you're only aiming that 12 constitution or threat reduction? (Will follow)

with 15 cons I'm standing at 232 HP at level 20. (Tome ate)

+2 exceptional cons on TOD ring
+7 constitution item (Envenomed cloak)

So here's end calculation and I'll be slow

15cons + 7 cons + 2 exceptional cons = 332HP (Only cons counted)
Thoughness augment crystal on bracer +20HP
Greater False Life on Gloves (Yellow slot)+30HP

382HP
In the end with 16 cons = 422HP
or 14 cons = 402HP
Greensteel Goggle +45HP
Brings a total of 427HP over a 12 cons base rogue.

That's really bad, honestly. I don't see why you would need that int / cha, as it serves no purpose in the current endgame, whilst hp above 500 for a melee is essential.

This is my HOrogue that I made a while back. (34p)

Name: XXXXXX
Class: Rogue 20
Race: Half-Orc
Allignment: Neutral

Base Stats (34p)
Str 20
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 6
Wis 8
Cha 6

Final Stats
Str 44 (20 base + 7 item + 3 tome + 5 levels +1 exceptional str +2 exceptional +2 enhancements)
Dex 26 (15 base + 4 tome + 6 item + 1 enhancements) 
Con 28 (16 base + 3 tome + 6 item +3 exceptional)
Int 14 (6 base + 2 tome + 6 (for traps))
Wis 16 (8 base + 6 item + 2 tome)
Cha 14 (6 base + 6 (UMD) +2 tome)

+ 2-6 more strength with madstone + rage
+ 2-10 more con with madstone + rage
+ 2 more str from Yugoloth potion
+ 2 more con from Yugoloth potion

+1 dex tome before Greater TWF
+2 Int tome as soon as possible.

Obviously not all of the tomes will be needed, they are just there so the viewer knows what will be there in the end.

Feats
Level 1: Toughness
Level 3: Two Weapon Fighting
Level 6: Power Attack
Level 9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 10: Opportunist (Rogue feat)
Level 12: Khopesh
Level 13: Improved Evasion (Rogue feat) 
Level 15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Level 16: Crippling Strike (Rogue feat) 
Level 18: Quickdraw or Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Level 19: Slippery Mind (Rogue feat) 

Skill Points
Balance
Jump
Disable Device
Search
UMD
tumble
Spot
Open Lock (After +2 int tome)

Enhancements
(1 points) Enhancement: Rogue trap sense I
(10 points) Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV 
(3 points) Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II 
(10 points) Enhancement: Rogue sneak attack damage IV 
(10 points) Enhancement: Rogue sneak attack accuracy IV 
(2 points) Enhancement: Rogue Dex I
(2 points) Enhancement: Rogue Extra boost I
(6 points) Enhancement: Rogue Subtle backstabber III
(2 points) Enhancement: Rogue improved move silently II
(2 points) Enhancement: Rogue improved hide II
(8 points) Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
(2 points) Enhancement: Rogue deadly shadow I
(6 points) Enhancement: Orcish strength II
(7 points) Enhancement: Orcish extra action boost III
(3 points) Enhancement: Orcish toughness II
(6 points) Enhancement: Orcish power attack III

Saves Unbuffed
Fortitude: 20 (6 Levels +4 res +9 con +1 save ritual)
Reflex: 25 (12 Levels +4 res +8 dex +1 save ritual)
Will: 14 (6 Levels +4 res +3 wisdom +1 save ritual)

Saves Self Buffed
Fortitude: 24 (20 + 4 GH)
Reflex: 30 (25 + 4 GH + 1 haste)
Will: 18 (14 + 4 GH)

Hit Points
120 Rogue
20 Heroic Durability
180 Con
40 Superior False Life
10 Favor
45 Shroud item
20 Marilith Chains (toughness)
22 Toughness (feat)
20 Enhancements (toughness)
---------------------
477 Hitpoints
20 Rage pot
40 Madstone
---------------------
537 Hitpoints
40 Yugoloth Potion
40 Madstone x2
20 ship buff (con)
---------------------
637 Hitpoints

To hit
15 Base Attack Bonus
17 Strength
5 Weapon
2 Shintao Set
-4 Two Weapon Fighting
-8 Power Attack
---------------------
27 Unbuffed
4 Greater Heroism
1 Rage potion
1 Madstone
1 Haste
5 Madstone BAB cap
---------------------
39 With regular buffs
9 Sneak attack
2 Flanking
---------------------
50 Sneak attacking
2 Compentence song
1 Maxed courage song
2 Recitation
---------------------
55 Maxed


Items
Main hand - Mineral Khopesh / Radiance II Khopesh
Off hand - Mineral Khopesh / Radiance II Khopesh
Armor – Epic Marilith Chains (Seeker +10, Evil Guard, +20 hitpoints)
Bracers – Epic Bracers of the Claw (+2 Exceptional Con, Heavy Fortification)
Ring - Shintao Ring (+6 wis, +1 str, +20% healing amp) 
Boots – Madstone boots (+4 dexterity, madstone effect, 20% striding)
Gloves – Epic Gloves of the Claw (30% healing amp, 6 str)
Ring – Ravager Ring (+6 str, +1 str, +2 str) 
Belt – Ravager Belt (+6 con)
Cloak -  Shroud Crafted (+45 hp, +5 dex skills, Radiance guard)
Trinket – Epic Dusk Heart (10% blur, Superior False Life, +6 Dexterity, +4 Resistance)
Necklace - Shintao Necklace (+6 con) 
Helmet – Epic Red Dragon Helmet (+7 Str, Magma Surge guard, +1 exceptional con)
Goggles - Tharnes goggles (+5 Sneak Attack, True Seeing, +15 search, +15 spot)










Strengths
Godly DPS
Crippling Strike
High amount of hitpoints for a rogue
9 Action boosts
Higher to hit than most rogues
UMD
Trap skills for basically all the traps in the game, even on elite.
Neutral alignement
Improved evasion
Opportunist feat
Permanent 10% blur
Radiance and Magma surge guard
Wont need all the items in the game to have outstanding DPS, though items will help
172% Healing amplification

Weaknesses
Really, really bad saves
Gonna be hard not to have aggro, so wont always get all the SA damage
Not that much versatility, besides UMD and traps

[Lemanchot]

That's really bad, honestly. I don't see why you would need that int / cha, as it serves no purpose in the current endgame, whilst hp above 500 for a melee is essensial.

This is my HOrogue that I made a while back. (34p)

Name: XXXXXX
Class: Rogue 20
Race: Half-Orc
Allignment: Neutral

Base Stats (34p)
Str 20
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 6
Wis 8
Cha 6

Final Stats
Str 44 (20 base + 7 item + 3 tome + 5 levels +1 exceptional str +2 exceptional +2 enhancements)
Dex 26 (15 base + 4 tome + 6 item + 1 enhancements) 
Con 28 (16 base + 3 tome + 6 item +3 exceptional)
Int 14 (6 base + 2 tome + 6 (for traps))
Wis 16 (8 base + 6 item + 2 tome)
Cha 14 (6 base + 6 (UMD) +2 tome)

+ 2-6 more strength with madstone + rage
+ 2-10 more con with madstone + rage
+ 2 more str from Yugoloth potion
+ 2 more con from Yugoloth potion

+1 dex tome before Greater TWF
+2 Int tome as soon as possible.

Obviously not all of the tomes will be needed, they are just there so the viewer knows what will be there in the end.

Feats
Level 1: Toughness
Level 3: Two Weapon Fighting
Level 6: Power Attack
Level 9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 10: Opportunist (Rogue feat)
Level 12: Khopesh
Level 13: Improved Evasion (Rogue feat) 
Level 15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Level 16: Crippling Strike (Rogue feat) 
Level 18: Quickdraw or Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Level 19: Slippery Mind (Rogue feat) 

Skill Points
Balance
Jump
Disable Device
Search
UMD
tumble
Spot
Open Lock (After +2 int tome)

Enhancements
(1 points) Enhancement: Rogue trap sense I
(10 points) Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV 
(3 points) Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II 
(10 points) Enhancement: Rogue sneak attack damage IV 
(10 points) Enhancement: Rogue sneak attack accuracy IV 
(2 points) Enhancement: Rogue Dex I
(2 points) Enhancement: Rogue Extra boost I
(6 points) Enhancement: Rogue Subtle backstabber III
(2 points) Enhancement: Rogue improved move silently II
(2 points) Enhancement: Rogue improved hide II
(8 points) Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
(2 points) Enhancement: Rogue deadly shadow I
(6 points) Enhancement: Orcish strength II
(7 points) Enhancement: Orcish extra action boost III
(3 points) Enhancement: Orcish toughness II
(6 points) Enhancement: Orcish power attack III

Saves Unbuffed
Fortitude: 20 (6 Levels +4 res +9 con +1 save ritual)
Reflex: 25 (12 Levels +4 res +8 dex +1 save ritual)
Will: 14 (6 Levels +4 res +3 wisdom +1 save ritual)

Saves Self Buffed
Fortitude: 24 (20 + 4 GH)
Reflex: 30 (25 + 4 GH + 1 haste)
Will: 18 (14 + 4 GH)

Hit Points
120 Rogue
20 Heroic Durability
180 Con
40 Superior False Life
10 Favor
45 Shroud item
20 Marilith Chains (toughness)
22 Toughness (feat)
20 Enhancements (toughness)
---------------------
477 Hitpoints
20 Rage pot
40 Madstone
---------------------
537 Hitpoints
40 Yugoloth Potion
40 Madstone x2
20 ship buff (con)
---------------------
637 Hitpoints

To hit
15 Base Attack Bonus
17 Strength
5 Weapon
2 Shintao Set
-4 Two Weapon Fighting
-8 Power Attack
---------------------
27 Unbuffed
4 Greater Heroism
1 Rage potion
1 Madstone
1 Haste
5 Madstone BAB cap
---------------------
39 With regular buffs
9 Sneak attack
2 Flanking
---------------------
50 Sneak attacking
2 Compentence song
1 Maxed courage song
2 Recitation
---------------------
55 Maxed


Items
Main hand - Mineral Khopesh / Radiance II Khopesh
Off hand - Mineral Khopesh / Radiance II Khopesh
Armor – Epic Marilith Chains (Seeker +10, Evil Guard, +20 hitpoints)
Bracers – Epic Bracers of the Claw (+2 Exceptional Con, Heavy Fortification)
Ring - Shintao Ring (+6 wis, +1 str, +20% healing amp) 
Boots – Madstone boots (+4 dexterity, madstone effect, 20% striding)
Gloves – Epic Gloves of the Claw (30% healing amp, 6 str)
Ring – Ravager Ring (+6 str, +1 str, +2 str) 
Belt – Ravager Belt (+6 con)
Cloak -  Shroud Crafted (+45 hp, +5 dex skills, Radiance guard)
Trinket – Epic Dusk Heart (10% blur, Superior False Life, +6 Dexterity, +4 Resistance)
Necklace - Shintao Necklace (+6 con) 
Helmet – Epic Red Dragon Helmet (+7 Str, Magma Surge guard, +1 exceptional con)
Goggles - Tharnes goggles (+5 Sneak Attack, True Seeing, +15 search, +15 spot)










Strengths
Godly DPS
Crippling Strike
High amount of hitpoints for a rogue
9 Action boosts
Higher to hit than most rogues
UMD
Trap skills for basically all the traps in the game, even on elite.
Neutral alignement
Improved evasion
Opportunist feat
Permanent 10% blur
Radiance and Magma surge guard
Wont need all the items in the game to have outstanding DPS, though items will help
172% Healing amplification

Weaknesses
Really, really bad saves
Gonna be hard not to have aggro, so wont always get all the SA damage
Not that much versatility, besides UMD and traps

Is it serious? Sorry I'll be more specific. You're showing a cool build with some extra HP (fine !) but you're using an epic MC?! Thanks for sharing though it was a clever post.

So guys Ill do a higher HP rogue I swear it... but I'll anhillate all my chance to make my evasion feat viable! See you in a better world.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Is it serious? Sorry I'll be more specific. You're showing a cool build with some extra HP (fine !) but you're using an epic MC?! Thanks for sharing though it was a clever post.

So guys Ill do a higher HP rogue I swear it... but I'll anhillate all my chance to make my evasion feat viable! See you in a better world.

Nice Red herring

The item build is just an item build, this one made to achieve max dps (which it does). It's the build that matters, not the item build.
So just use your item build, and you've got all my builds advantages, and a LOT more hp, which will actually make it viable* in the current, and future endgame.

*Viable from my (and other super-powergamers) perspective.

[samdsherman]

wow someone who knows how to build a rogue.... sweet

[Lemanchot]

These 2 are getting old anybody else ?

On a side note 40 HP will not save you and yeah I forgot to count draconic vitality oh hey since you count your madstone rage in your ammount yes I hit 500 HP. Rage spell + madstone rage .... 60HP + 437 HP = 497 HP woooohhhhhhoooooooooooooooooo

[Absolute-Omniscience]

These 2 are getting old anybody else ?

On a side note 40 HP will not save you and yeah I forgot to count draconic vitality oh hey since you count your madstone rage in your ammount yes I hit 500 HP. Rage spell + madstone rage .... 60HP + 437 HP = 497 HP woooohhhhhhoooooooooooooooooo

Nice trolling there,
I've made two posts here, and you pulled a red herring on the first one, and ignored the second one.

And what do you gain for sacrifing so much hp potential? The answer is absolutely nothing that'll really help you.

Perhaps you haven't played epic chrono, where failed save kills most people under 550 hitpoints.
Or hell, just tod where the tank loses aggro and he stuns right after, and you have to soak for 3 seconds without healing.

[Lemanchot]

Nice trolling there,
I've made two posts here, and you pulled a red herring on the first one, and ignored the second one.

And what do you gain for sacrifing so much hp potential? The answer is absolutely nothing that'll really help you.

Perhaps you haven't played epic chrono, where failed save kills most people under 550 hitpoints.
Or hell, just tod where the tank loses aggro and he stuns right after, and you have to soak for 3 seconds without healing.

Dude search for Larha over Ghallanda and the discussion is over.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Dude search for Larha over Ghallanda and the discussion is over.

Eh?

May I suggest Grice's Maxims for some light-reading as well?

Especially quantity and relevance.

[Asketes]

it helps if you put your math and end game HP count as well as that's kind of important to know.

[Artos_Fabril]

I'm curious, do you see Defensive Roll going off often? Cause when i had it on my 1st life i can say it sometimes saved me, but then i was dex-based so my reflex save was around 40 without buffs, so i won 1/2 of rolls.

Let's say u have 450hp, reflex 12+8+1+2+4+6+5=38 (rogue, dex mod, ship, GL, GH, uncanny, res item). So you have 38% chance of getting half damage when below 90hp. It doesn't sound appealing to me.

This.

If you scrap defensive roll and replace it with another Skill Mastery, you could drop int and cha by 2 points each and end up at the same skill totals for traps, socials and UMD, while increasing all your other, less meaningful skills as well.

Or you could leave them where they are, either way you still get more benefit, more often, from another Skill Mastery than Defensive Roll.