One thing I don't get...

[Zachski]

(Thread may be tagged sorcerer, but Wizards are expected to join, too)

Okay, so I cast hypnotism on an enemy. It works, he's standing there all @_@

So I cast Niac's cold ray.

And he gets a reflex save on it. Okay, so I hypnotized him into standing completely still, and... he reflexively dodges an ice beam coming at him.

Okay, granted, I guess that's somewhat acceptable. Even while hypnotized, if someone taps your knee, you will still kick. Impending beam of death activates your body, not your mind.

So now he's Commanded to the floor, completely unable to move. I cast Niac's Cold Ray.

He reflexively dodges again.

Uhh, dude, you can't move. You were ordered, by divine magic, to sit there, and yet you can reflexively dodge me.

So a caster kobold is standing there, casting what looks like a complicated spell. I fire off a chain of Niac's.

Save. Save. Save.

*facepalm*

I understand these are DnD rules, but they don't really make sense. That goes for sneak attacks, too; the enemy is prone on the ground, unbalanced. Or maybe he's hypnotized. Why is it that, while he's helpless, my rogue is completely unable to take the time to aim at a vital organ or whatever? They're helpless in all but the status effect...

Now, to find an Eagle's Splendor clickie.

[stille_nacht]

hmmm this is sort of true, id totally be behind something with commanded/ etc. enemies get no reflex saves.

it might be a bit overpowered at low level, but i doubt it

[Zachski]

hmmm this is sort of true, id totally be behind with commanded/ etc. enemies get no reflex saves.

Yeah, seriously.

Will saves make sense because you still have a mind even while hypnotized, ergo, you have will saves. Though that would be a neat mechanic... being hypnotized dropping your will saves to zero, due to hypnotic suggestion. Eh.

Fort saves make sense because it's your body's natural, well, fortitude. You can't exactly turn that off just by being made helpless.

EDIT: As far as low level goes, well.. Sorcerers and Wizards can't command :P Clerics and Favored Souls can, but then they don't get any spells at those levels that require Reflex saves.

[Scraap]

I understand these are DnD rules, but they don't really make sense.

Actually, it's not.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

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http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/com...m#touchAttacks

Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

No dex modifier, armor doesn't apply, ranged touch attack with a ray. Exactly the sort of synergistic one-two punch that would always land, were this tabletop.

/getoffmylawnlawyer

That being said, not entirely certain no-failure rates would have any less of a perverting influence than blanket immunities does at the other end of the spectrum, were they to properly implement those. (Not to mention the need for dex as a third stat, or adding insightful strike as a feat, for to-hit with those, would likely send quite a few folks into a meltdown.)

[Ashbinder]

Horc swing Greataxe at Kobold! Horc see axe go through Kobold, but Horc do no damage. Horc sad...

Sometimes it doesn't make sense. What you see and what happens in game are two different things.

[ColdNapalm]

Actually, it's not.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm

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http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/com...m#touchAttacks


No dex modifier, armor doesn't apply, ranged touch attack with a ray. Exactly the sort of synergistic one-two punch that would always land, were this tabletop.

/getoffmylawnlawyer

That being said, not entirely certain no-failure rates would have any less of a perverting influence than blanket immunities does at the other end of the spectrum, were they to properly implement those. (Not to mention the need for dex as a third stat, adding insightful strike as a feat, for to-hit or with those would likely send quite a few folks into a meltdown.)

A point...neither command nor hypno causes the helpless condition. The first causes the prone condition which gives melees a +4 to hit and archers a -4 to hit. Other then that, you can still act normally...hell you can even attack (which DDO does not allow for the prone status). The second causes dazed which specifically says that you can defend yourself normally, but you may take no actions (swift, move, standard...not do nothing). The spell that causes the helpless condition is the hold line of spells.

[tinyelvis]

Dont hold, web, command, sleep, or hypno a dude. Dance him, he is easier to hit with reflex save spells then.

[Zachski]

Dont hold, web, command, sleep, or hypno a dude. Dance him, he is easier to hit with reflex save spells then.

Like Sorcerers have Dance at level 3 :P

[justhavinfun]

Personally I rarely even carry Niac's. To me it seems like a waste of a spell. When I first played a caster tried using Niac's. Just seemed like my SP's went away but never did any damage. It is way to easy for the Mobs to save against for 0dmg. Prefer burning hands, acid spray, and magic missle for my low level damage spells. Mainly at low level I depend on CC like hypno and charm.

[Zachski]

Personally I rarely even carry Niac's. To me it seems like a waste of a spell. When I first played a caster tried using Niac's. Just seemed like my SP's went away but never did any damage. It is way to easy for the Mobs to save against for 0dmg. Prefer burning hands, acid spray, and magic missle for my low level damage spells. Mainly at low level I depend on CC like hypno and charm.

Hey, I can't object to being able to deal up to 40 damage at level 3, for 10 Sp and a cheap component. 60 Damage before metamagics is really good for a tier 1 spell.

I really should get Eagle's Splendor something or other, though, that would help with the "Derp reflex!" that's going on.

I have Acid Spray. Burning Hands would be redundant. Magic Missile... uh... people actually slot that? I get Archmages due to the "I get it as an SLA so it's 1 SP with Empower and Maximize", but not anyone else.

Also, I have hypno and charm. Which is why it's frustrating that Hypnotism doesn't at least lower the enemy's reflex save. Charm is useful, but at the same time, dangerous. After all, Charm wears off, and kobolds don't actually deal that much damage, even to each other.

Though it's a riot in the quest where you guard Baudry's box. I remember once, on another character, the party leader actually asked me to stop casting it... not because they were frustrated at not being able to attack those enemies... but because I had a whole freaking army of them, and "enough is enough".

[blitzschlag]

Like Sorcerers have Dance at level 3 :P

actually they could have it. not my first or tenth pick but they could.


op: this game is not realistic. if this was kinda real all those cc spells would allow a coupe de grace on held victims. funny? no! realistic? yes!

[Letrii]

Actually, it's not.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm

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http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/com...m#touchAttacks


No dex modifier, armor doesn't apply, ranged touch attack with a ray. Exactly the sort of synergistic one-two punch that would always land, were this tabletop.

/getoffmylawnlawyer

That being said, not entirely certain no-failure rates would have any less of a perverting influence than blanket immunities does at the other end of the spectrum, were they to properly implement those. (Not to mention the need for dex as a third stat, adding insightful strike as a feat, for to-hit or with those would likely send quite a few folks into a meltdown.)

Even helpless targets have 5 AC.

[Zachski]

actually they could have it. not my first or tenth pick but they could.


op: this game is not realistic. if this was kinda real all those cc spells would allow a coupe de grace on held victims. funny? no! realistic? yes!

Resistable Dance is spell level 2 for Wizard and Sorcerer.

Sorcerer doesn't get spell level 2 until level 4.

I could use a wand or a scroll, but then the DC would be horribly low :|

[tinyelvis]

Like Sorcerers have Dance at level 3 :P

That is not true. You can potentially scroll it.

But honestly, who needs it. If you spec your toon well, you will rarely not land a niacs cold ray. From your low damage quote, I am guessing you are spec'd poorly.

Even a rookie player with few resources can do it

[Scraap]

I stand corrected.

So since my aged brain is apparently still slipping on occasion into version conflation and miss-remembrance, anyone got a handy dandy 3.5 effect-causing chart to save on some research, now that helpless in particular is becoming more than a bit relevant? (Extra e-cookie if there's one that lists turbine specific aberrant rulings.)

[Zachski]

That is not true. You can potentially scroll it.

You failed your reading check.

I could use a wand or a scroll, but then the DC would be horribly low :|

But honestly, who needs it. If you spec your toon well, you will rarely not land a niacs cold ray. From your low damage quote, I am guessing you are spec'd poorly.

Ah, going on the attack, are we?

Please, define "spec'd poorly". 18 CHA at character creation, which is the max a human can achieve, is not "spec'd poorly". Taking Spell Focus: Conjuration for one tier 1 spell would be "spec'd poorly".

Granted, with the new PrE coming out, I'm going to want it anyways, but that's what the free feat respec is for.

Even a rookie player with few resources can do it

Define "rookie player" and "few resources."

I can land the spell 50-75% of the time. However, unluckiness can happen, and that's when I end up getting the spell saved against three times.

That being said, there's a reason I'm looking for a Eagle's Splendor clickie. Failing that, I'll have to get a wand for it, which I don't want to do because tier 2 wands are expensive at this low level.

[ColdNapalm]

Bah, if you want to do DPS...ignore niacs. Burning hands + a 10 pp potion = dead mobs at those levels...and in an area to boot.

[Zachski]

Bah, if you want to do DPS...ignore niacs. Burning hands + a 10 pp potion = dead mobs at those levels...and in an area to boot.

Actually, I'm using Acid Spray for its ability to damage Grey Oozes which are annoyingly common in the Harbor.

At level 4, I get Web, though, so that's nice.

[Emili]

Like Sorcerers have Dance at level 3 :P

Otto's Resistible Dance is a 2nd level sorc/wiz spell. Though I doubt a sorc would bother with it.

Bah, if you want to do DPS...ignore niacs. Burning hands + a 10 pp potion = dead mobs at those levels...and in an area to boot.

When Niac's first came out it had "No Save"... the devs added a save because it was viewed over-powered.

[Zachski]

Otto's Resistible Dance is a 2nd level sorc/wiz spell. Though I doubt a sorc would bother with it.

And Sorcerers get their second level spells at level 4. They can no-fail scroll it at Level 3, sure, but at basically d20 + 2 DC, if I understand the formula correctly.

When Niac's first came out it had "No Save"... the devs added a save because it was viewed over-powered.

That makes sense, considering that when it actually hits, it basically one-shots anything on Normal.