Forgive me Cannith for I have sinned

[Der_Incubo]

In bad runs however you can still die, I have seen my 450ish Hit point Rogue and Monks spike down to double digit hitpoints when part 4/5 has gotten funky. Mass Protects are often not refreshed, Heals are delayed as they try to save someone with low hitpoints, etcetera.

I should mention that my Rogue has seen 600+ hitpoint Fighters dieing before he does in the Shroud, and they where in Mass Heal Radius, it just wasn't happening. On my Lower level Barbarian I have had his 700+ Hitpoints drop into the low hundred in some runs, so with no Evasion you want even more.

Yes I get into a lot of bad Shroud Runs, I also get into a lot of good ones, and very few just decent ones =D.



20 Hitpoints are game changing for a Shroud Running rogue between 300ish and 400ish hitpoints.

When my 600 hp bard (w/evasion) dies i start to worry..

swear them lagspikes cause more deaths than 8 con rogs...

[justagame]

Your point is valid, but I make one objection to it: characters don't start out with a full set of hp gear.

What I mean by that is that while anyone can have gfl and a con item by the time they're in the vale, many new players might not have the +2 tome, and no new player will have a shroud hp item. A character who dumped con may struggle lacking these things, whereas one who put as many points as he could spare into con can get by until he can finish gearing up.

This catchphrase is the simplest way to help new people survive learning from their mistakes.

Definitely a fair comment as it applies to the shroud item and tomes, I agree with you there. But especially at mid levels, there are many things a newcomer can get fairly easily. Toughness can make a huge difference. Depending on class, toughness on a melee can mean 40 to 70 hp at mid levels very easily. The bottom line is that if someone is wearing a reasonable con item, some kind of false life item (even ifl), and has toughness, it's pretty difficult to tell if they started a little low on con. However, if they dumped con, AND skipped toughness, AND didn't bother with con or false life items, then it's very easy to tell that something's wrong, and that character is going to be in for a rough time. And 2-4 more starting points in con isn't going to fix that by itself.

[nbaker18]

Meh... ill admit at this point in time my palidan only has 397 unless i equip that calvary plat than obviously i will be sitting at 437 which is still low but I have no gear and no hp item... as far as Hp goes yes it is very easy to attain 400 Hp so people having any significant amount lower than that is strange, but 400 is enough no mattyer what anybody says my monk has 427 and thats with an HP item and I seem to do just fine. only reason you need more than that is if you are a hate tank or intimi tank and for intimi i feel 550 is a good number to look for and hate the more the better really for instance my barbarian has 839 atm

[Tom318]

They're always telling people how to play with themselves.

Heh.

[NinjaNeed]

My 2 cents....

Barbarians and fighters should be aiming for 600 or more, depending on build and so on, 28 point builds should still have at least 500.

Paladins should be aiming for 500 ish.

ALL other MELEE should be hitting over 400 without a 45hp item.

Casters and healers need 300 ish to be viable in raids.

You need to be able to take a hit occasionally and in raids that means 200 to 300 damage.

An example, epic ADQ. 2 casters, 2 healers and dps (fighters, barbs and a pally) no bard.
We do the "all stand still and block" tactic. Blades come in and one caster dies instantly, ressed, dies again. Repeat. We wipe due to healers spending too much resources on ressing and not enough on healing. Kick the caster, go in 11 man and complete with NO problem at all.

Checked his myddo and he has 210hp. That is NOT enough end game.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

On a serious note ..... I now can get to 365HP for the Harry fights. I haven't died once (4 runs) and its not as touch and go.

So 310hp .. to low borderline doable but very risky.
365hp .. much better but still risky (bad healer, lag etc could be fatal)
To come - GFL, smoke II and +2 exc con will around 450ish.

4 runs and no shard of power ..... many others got them but didn't give them to me ... i mean come on my need before your greed people. Have all other shards and matts ... sigh

More shroud runs tonight I guess.

[Miahoo]

the rogue in our guild has been level 20 for like 2 weeks and has 477 hp, his only sweet gear is a gs hp item. dont see why any rogue cant get that high.

I'm impressed!
I've been playing my rogue for 6 months, and barely scratch the 400HP.

20 hp Heroic Durability
120 hp levels
40 hp base con (14)
60 hp +6 con item
20 hp +1 human con enhancement +1 tome
30 hp GFL
22 hp Toughness
30 hp Racial Toughness I, II and III
---
342 = I agree this is the ~limit for lvl 20 rogue, and anyone need to have those listed minimal items
20 hp minos/toughness - not everybody have Necro4 pack
---
362 = this where I stand now
10 hp event trinket - when I dont need the true-seeing and +3 UMD (and when I don't forget to switch).
---
372
20 hp Rage
---
392 = thats my current max HP

- I don't have any exceptional Con items (yet).
- I don't have enough money to buy +2 Con tome (yet), and never pulled one before.
- I don't have a gs hp item (yet).
- I haven't pulled my madstone (yet).

Saying "a rogue with less than 400 hp shouldn't join the shroud" is like saying "anyone who don't have Min II shouldn't join the shroud" imho. (get it? like you MUST do the shroud in order to craft those min II?)
I have done the shroud with a gimped 330 HP ranger, and it was just fine. Don't get me wrong here! I don't say you should dump Con and be a gimp! and a fighter/bard with 300 con is a problem by itself. But, imho, 400 HP is not a minimal requirement for a normal shroud for some classes (and maybe races). and levels 16-17 toons CAN do the shroud.

Enlighten me please (and I'm not sarcastic here), how the hell did he made it to 477 HP when "his only sweet gear is a gs hp item." ??

[Lleren]

Saying "a rogue with less than 400 hp shouldn't join the shroud" is like saying "anyone who don't have Min II shouldn't join the shroud" imho. (get it? like you MUST do the shroud in order to craft those min II?)
I have done the shroud with a gimped 330 HP ranger, and it was just fine. Don't get me wrong here! I don't say you should dump Con and be gimped! and a fighter/bard with 300 con is a problem by itself. But, imho, 400 HP is not a minimal requirement for a normal shroud for some classes (and maybe races). and levels 16-17 toons CAN do the shroud.

Enlighten me please (and I'm not sarcastic here), how the hell did he made it to 477 HP when "his only sweet gear is a gs hp item." ??

Some folks have minimum standards of performance for themselves and others...

Heres the thing, those runs where my higher hitpoint evasion toons, and non evasion toons where getting down to double digit hitpoints in some cases, was mainly because the "healers" felt they had to keep everyone up, and where trying to intervene to save some folks character from dying. With 330 hitpoints in the Shroud you are a random aggro and a late "healer intervention" from going splat in parts 4 and 5.

With 400-450ish you should be ok with regular mass heals, even when random aggro loves you long time.

I've gone into the Shroud since free to play came about with characters as low as 14th level. I do not nessassarily recomend this with the standard pug tactics.

[GotSomeQuestions]

Miahoo, you didn't list the draconic vitality feat. Get 150 favor with the agents of argonnessen (gianthold, reaver's refuge) and you'll get a free stacking 10hp.

[Miahoo]

Miahoo, you didn't list the draconic vitality feat. Get 150 favor with the agents of argonnessen (gianthold, reaver's refuge) and you'll get a free stacking 10hp.

True. I've been kinda lazy with this toon - I still have tons of lvl 2-5 quests I need to complete for favor.

But even with 10 more HP, thats far far from 477 HP the guy above mention when "his only sweet gear is a gs hp item" - I'm sorry, but this comment really **** me off

[Razcar]

But even with 10 more HP, thats far far from 477 HP the guy above mention when "his only sweet gear is a gs hp item" - I'm sorry, but this comment really **** me off

Well, he didn't give very much info. Maybe it's a 13 rogue 7 barbarian. Maybe it's a Warforged Q-staff rogue with low Dex and lots of build points into Con. Maybe he is counting Raged, Madstoned and with ship buffs. Or maybe he took several Toughness-feats.

I understand if his flippant tone ticked you off though 477 HP isn't easy for an un-buffed "standard" rogue to reach, without tomes, weird feat allocation, Exceptional Con, SFL etc.

[Lleren]

True. I've been kinda lazy with this toon - I still have tons of lvl 2-5 quests I need to complete for favor.

But even with 10 more HP, thats far far from 477 HP the guy above mention when "his only sweet gear is a gs hp item" - I'm sorry, but this comment really **** me off

Why should they want someone who has been "kinda lazy with this toon", in thier Shroud?

Yer that Argonese favor away from breaking 400 hitpoints when buffed with something you can buy in a potion.
With that greensteel hitpoint item in addition you'd be at 447!
30 Hitpoints of differnece sounds like 2 more base Con, and a Race with one more toughness enhancement. So a Dwarf or Warforged.

[Miahoo]

Why should they want someone who has been "kinda lazy with this toon", in thier Shroud?

Yer that Argonese favor away from breaking 400 hitpoints when buffed with something you can buy in a potion.
With that greensteel hitpoint item in addition you'd be at 447!
30 Hitpoints of differnece sounds like 2 more base Con, and a Race with one more toughness enhancement. So a Dwarf or Warforged.

So people without the GH pack are not welcome to your groups, is that right? It'll be funny to see "Have the 10 HP from the Arg favor" in the lfm.

I didn't say its not possible for a rogue to reach 477 HP - but its not easy as it described. And its hell not easy for a newb rogue, who reached lvl 20 only 3 months ago. (I need 4 more larges for my 1st Rad II Khopesh).

Edit:
Don't forget we're talking about normal shroud here. I can't and have no argue about elite, as I yet experience it.

[Cardtrick]

I was in a Shroud run yesterday with another rogue who told us all up front that he always dies in part 4. Sure enough, he did -- in fact, almost immediately, before Harry even showed up. One of the healers immediately apologized and asked if it was his fault, thinking he had been lax with his heals.

Long story short, the rogue had 170 HPs -- with rage.

I don't think any of us were upset with him. As long as you're up front about your build issues, almost anything is forgivable, and he really did tell us right off that he usually dies.

Nevertheless, there is such a thing as way too squishy, and 170 HPs is it. I don't think that you need to have over 400 HPs to run Shroud, like some people seem to, but if you don't have some way to mitigate damage, anything below 350 is dangerous. At that point, the healers either have to use excessive resources to keep you up, or you spend too much time dead. A rogue or monk with evasion and a good reflex save, especially if they have some healing amp and can cast fire shield and/or stoneskin and/or displacement, can probably get by with 300.

But everyone should try for more than that. A tier 2 HP item should really be everyone's first Shroud item, and it should be upgraded to tier 3 as soon as possible. There's no doubt that my rogue is more survivable now that I can hit 550 HPs than when I was stuck sub-400 (before earthx3 green steel, Minos, +2 con tome, con 6 + greater false life items, Madstone boots, etc.). And it's useful! In that same Shroud run, Harry had about 15% HP left at the end of round 1, and several people had died, including one of the healers. The second healer died before Harry came back. By the time he showed up, only 4 of us were left standing, with no healers, and we only barely managed to keep up long enough to take him down. If any of the 4 of us had not made the necessary gear investments into HP, and therefore died, I doubt very much that the other 3 could have saved us from a wipe.

The situations when you need 550 HP rather than 350 as a non-tank are relatively rare, but it's always helpful, and it keeps healers happier. Everyone should have as much HP as they can possibly manage.

[Lleren]

So people without the GH pack are not welcome to your groups, is that right? It'll be funny to see "Have the 10 HP from the Arg favor" in the lfm.

I didn't say its not possible for a rogue to reach 477 HP - but its not easy as it described. And its hell not easy for a newb rogue, who reached lvl 20 only 3 months ago. (I need 4 more larges for my 1st Rad II Khopesh).

Enlighten me please (and I'm not sarcastic here), how the hell did he made it to 477 HP when "his only sweet gear is a gs hp item." ??

Most of my /lfm are take the first 5 that apply. Most of my Shrouds I try for 2 Divines, 2 Arcanes, and 7 anything. Occasionally someone will volunteer to solo Divine or solo Arcane, in which case If no other member of one of those classes apply, I'll let them.

It is quite easy for a newer Rogue to break 400 hitpoints.
You showed most of the math yourself.
Only have yerself to blame if ya don't reach it.

[Miahoo]

Long story short, the rogue had 170 HPs -- with rage.

I don't think any of us were upset with him. As long as you're up front about your build issues, almost anything is forgivable, and he really did tell us right off that he usually dies.

I agree, 150-170 HP is way too low. only LR/GR/TR/Reroll will save this kind of build.

But everyone should try for more than that. A tier 2 HP item should really be everyone's first Shroud item, and it should be upgraded to tier 3 as soon as possible.

My 1st gs was a khopesh.
Actually, I'm glad I did craft a weapon and not an item, as I figured the item I wanna craft only 2 weeks ago: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...45&postcount=9

Edit: Until that moment, I didnt know the gs HP stuck with GFL. Another reason I didn't bother with HP item and went for weapons.

It is quite easy for a newer Rogue to break 400 hitpoints.
You showed most of the math yourself.
Only have yerself to blame if ya don't reach it.

In this case, I agree with he OP: Forgive me Cannith for I have sinned.

[Cardtrick]

My 1st gs was a khopesh.

The thing is, even if that is your first green steel, by the time you're ready to complete tier 3 of an item, you usually have plenty of extra small and medium ingredients. Unlike a weapon, which needs to be better than your existing weapons to be useful, a green steel HP item stacks with anything else. So even a tier 2 HP item, which can be made using only your excess smalls and mediums, is worth crafting. That's still 25 HPs you wouldn't otherwise have. And if you go double Air or double Earth, you get a really useful elemental pet clicky.

Actually, I'm glad I did craft a weapon and not an item, as I figured the item I wanna craft only 2 weeks ago: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...45&postcount=9

That's definitely nice. It's just a shame that the double shard items like that are so expensive in larges. My first HP item was a 3xEarth cloak, to save larges. The earthgrab guard on it has actually been really useful, though, and I love the dense stone elemental clicky. Long term, I'll go with either a Smoke 2 (like yours) or Min 2 helm -- but I just couldn't spend the larges right now. That will wait until I've completed a couple of weapons.

[Miahoo]

[snip]Some good advices[/snip]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. And I'm on the process of making a gs HP item and Agg favor.
About that air/air/air gs - thats sound nice! do you think I better make one, or should I make a 2nd tier Smoky one and take the time with the 3rd tier?

The point is (again): I don't see a reason, why a new player, with a good build (>300HP - I aint talking about those ~150HP rogs), can't join a normal shroud.

[LordPiglet]

Depends on what you're making the GS for. You might be better with a smoke II, a Min II, or just a simple air guard or earth grab bard.

My exploiter runs min II for the ac, my kensai runs smoke II, my FvS will run con opp, my paly I haven't decided

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Ok ... now 407hp ... Shroud is no problem. My personal gut feel is 400+ is the mark to strive for to have a safe buffer.

Interesting that in 2 separate runs in the weekend........

The Cleric with 280hp and starting con of 10 ....... Yes one meteor swarm in the face does kill you. Lucky the other healer could solo part 4.

And the level 17 fighter with 350 hp and Korthos starting gear. You said you are all dps ... but when you dead in part 4 ( another meteor swarm to the face) you do exactly zero dps. Go find some +6 gear and yes a fighter that starts with 10 con, no tomes and uses a +5 com item at level 17 should not be running shroud.

What was amazing is how they try to argue that there is nothing wrong with their builds. For the record everyone was particularly nice to them ... no flaming.

heh and being welcomed to shroud runs with "welcome sinner" is funny