Forgive me Cannith for I have sinned

[xxScoobyDooxx]

High Priest of Cannith : Tell me of your sins my son
Slashious : Firstly - my level 17 rogue flagged for Shroud
High Priest : nothing wrong with that ... go on
Slash : So I throw up a late night LFM for Shroud
High Priest : hmmm still ok ... go on
Slash : I have 310 hp
High Priest : SACRILEGE - CON is NOT a dump stat! .... go on
Slash : we fill surprisingly quickly and go in with no problem in part 1.
High Priest : go on
Slash : I pull a shard which is good as I have a GS blank and all the mats for a double shard tier 3.
High Priest : ok .... go on
Slash : part two was no problems same as part 3 which I pull another shard.
High Priest : hmmmm need before greed I suppose ... go on.
Slash : part 4 we had good dps but as the blades closed I saw 45hp once and then 27hp but I made it through, two others were not so lucky and one was the second Cleric. So I volunteer to raise the Cleric.
High Priest : That is good.
Slash : Well yes, but as the alter was hit I noticed that my raise dead scroll chance was only 85%
High Priest : My gods son, luck was with you then but you risked not only his life but his easy looting of a chest.... go on.
Slash : Part 5 I diced with death with almost single digit hp on multiple occasions. wand whipping stoneskin was the only thing that saved me and we completed ok. I didn't die, I leveled to 18 and crafted a tier 2 GS rapier.

High Priest : My son, there are multiple sins you have amassed but the mortal sin that cannot be overlooked is entering a raid with 310hp regardless of you not dieing. You are forever damned. May Horoth have mercy on your soul.

fun times

[The_Deceiver]

LOL WAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!! you darn sinners !

[MariRove]

(Scratching my head) Actually what is the acceptable HP value for the elitists?

By the way, "CON is not a dump stats" is getting really annoying to me as a 2month old player. I mean I had only max 364HP and ransacking shroud hopefully to craft a HP accessory to boost it higher.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

(Scratching my head) Actually what is the acceptable HP value for the elitists?

By the way, "CON is not a dump stats" is getting really annoying to me as a 2month old player. I mean I had only max 364HP and ransacking shroud hopefully to craft a HP accessory to boost it higher.

I won't put a number but I can safely say 310hp in shroud is madness

[YTstabbs]

Yes everyone play the way WE say!

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Yes everyone play the way WE say!

You couldn't be more wrong for your first post.

I told a story about me, how i play and what my opinion is in that regard. It's actually a factual account of my rogues first shroud run.

Anyway your welcome to play with yourself anyway you like. Also it was the High Priest that was preaching about Con not being a dump stat not me. They're always telling people how to play with themselves.

[MsEricka]

~400HP on any character is easily attainable without a green steel HP item by level 20 and should be what most characters have at a minimum.

~450 is much better, and attainable with a green steel HP item.

And before people start to complain (read whine), ~400 is not an unrealistic number for any class or race except perhaps Drow. Even with Drow you're only 20 HP behind most other races.

- Toughness and Greater False Life stack.
- Get your Argonessen favor for another 10 free HP.
- Hit 1750 favor for a free +2 CON tome.

That's 80 free HP for doing basically nothing!

Personally I like seeing 500 HP+, but the above is doable by pretty much anyone in game.

[Tom318]

They're always telling people how to play with themselves.

Heh.

[LordPiglet]

(Scratching my head) Actually what is the acceptable HP value for the elitists?

By the way, "CON is not a dump stats" is getting really annoying to me as a 2month old player. I mean I had only max 364HP and ransacking shroud hopefully to craft a HP accessory to boost it higher.

I had one written up and then my browser ate it (well, I closed the tab accidentally).

It's not elitist to expect you to have more hit points, you make yourself more survivable by doing so. Healing amp, AC, Damage reduction are also ways to make yourself more survivable.

From what I can see you appear to be lacking

A toughness item
Greater false life
you also have an odd con (23)

get those items and bumping the con to 24 is another 70 hp.

What packs do you have access to? What is your starting con, this is important on a human as you want to take an odd con (even if you have a +3 tome), then human adaptability constitution to open up tier 3 racial toughness. That starting con also depends on your end gear.

Also, 400 min is before buffs, that's your standing hit points. My exploiters runs at 495, but rage and double madstone are an additional 100 hp.

[justagame]

The phrase "CON is not a dump stat" always bugs me, not because hit points don't matter (they do!), but because CON is only a small part of the problem. The difference between a 280 hp toon in shroud and a 400hp toon in shroud isn't that they started with a 10 con instead of 14. It's the lack of toughness and enhancements, the lack of a CON item, GFL, etc.

Heck, take any toon that started with a base 14-16 CON (which most sane people would agree is solid), and has 450 to 600 hp at endgame (depending on class, race, etc.). Starting with a CON of only 10, and holding everything else equal, would bring hp down to the 400 to 550 range -- nothing we would describe as extraordinarily gimpy all by itself, except in the case of a pure tank. Similarly, you could start with a 16 CON, but ignore toughness, items, tomes, GFL, etc. and have 300 (or less!) hp at endgame.

As a real life example, when I did a GR of my first toon, a cleric, and converted from a 28 to 32-pt build, among other things I bumped starting CON from 12 to 14. That netted me 20 hp. Nice, but not game-changing. However, I also re-did my feats and added toughness + racial enhancements (42), and shortly afterwards crafted my shroud hp item (45). Now THAT made a noticeable difference, and allowed me to play less gingerly.

In short, "CON is not a dump stat" might mis-lead newcomers a bit, because it's insufficient. I realize it has a nicer ring to it than something like "Hit points matter", but it's potentially misleading nonetheless. Whenever I hear someone smugly comment about a low hp toon "CON is not a dump stat", I often wonder if starting CON is the real problem for the player in question, or if perhaps they left other HP-enhancing things out of their build.

[Dex]

If you haven't played a healer to level 20 and healed pugs regularly, then you are just guessing at this problem. If you have, then you are probably just sitting back and smiling smugly. ;/

Really it comes down to what kind of healers you are running with, and how much effort and pots they are willing to put out. Me personally, on a PUG shroud, if someone goes down way to easily fighting Harry, I will raise them once (part 5), and fr them, if they go down again, they can wait till the party's over, heh. If you can't stay up with the mass heals that are keeping the rest of the party up, you fail.

Guild runs are different of course, I KNOW our rogues do great DPS and am usually willing to keep them up to make the fight go quicker.

Problem is EVERYONE thinks they do good DPS, and it is not always the case...

Peace B)

[societal]

If you haven't played a healer to level 20 and healed pugs regularly, then you are just guessing at this problem. If you have, then you are probably just sitting back and smiling smugly. ;/

Really it comes down to what kind of healers you are running with, and how much effort and pots they are willing to put out. Me personally, on a PUG shroud, if someone goes down way to easily fighting Harry, I will raise them once (part 5), and fr them, if they go down again, they can wait till the party's over, heh. If you can't stay up with the mass heals that are keeping the rest of the party up, you fail.

Guild runs are different of course, I KNOW our rogues do great DPS and am usually willing to keep them up to make the fight go quicker.

Problem is EVERYONE thinks they do good DPS, and it is not always the case...

Peace B)

If you have to POT as a healer to get through shroud, there is some serious fail going on in multiple areas. Lag spikes and extremely low hp (or rangers/casters standing in blades like morons) are the only things that should cause deaths.

[Malison]

The phrase "CON is not a dump stat" always bugs me, not because hit points don't matter (they do!), but because CON is only a small part of the problem. The difference between a 280 hp toon in shroud and a 400hp toon in shroud isn't that they started with a 10 con instead of 14. It's the lack of toughness and enhancements, the lack of a CON item, GFL, etc.

Heck, take any toon that started with a base 14-16 CON (which most sane people would agree is solid), and has 450 to 600 hp at endgame (depending on class, race, etc.). Starting with a CON of only 10, and holding everything else equal, would bring hp down to the 400 to 550 range -- nothing we would describe as extraordinarily gimpy all by itself, except in the case of a pure tank. Similarly, you could start with a 16 CON, but ignore toughness, items, tomes, GFL, etc. and have 300 (or less!) hp at endgame.

As a real life example, when I did a GR of my first toon, a cleric, and converted from a 28 to 32-pt build, among other things I bumped starting CON from 12 to 14. That netted me 20 hp. Nice, but not game-changing. However, I also re-did my feats and added toughness + racial enhancements (42), and shortly afterwards crafted my shroud hp item (45). Now THAT made a noticeable difference, and allowed me to play less gingerly.

In short, "CON is not a dump stat" might mis-lead newcomers a bit, because it's insufficient. I realize it has a nicer ring to it than something like "Hit points matter", but it's potentially misleading nonetheless. Whenever I hear someone smugly comment about a low hp toon "CON is not a dump stat", I often wonder if starting CON is the real problem for the player in question, or if perhaps they left other HP-enhancing things out of their build.

Your point is valid, but I make one objection to it: characters don't start out with a full set of hp gear.

What I mean by that is that while anyone can have gfl and a con item by the time they're in the vale, many new players might not have the +2 tome, and no new player will have a shroud hp item. A character who dumped con may struggle lacking these things, whereas one who put as many points as he could spare into con can get by until he can finish gearing up.

This catchphrase is the simplest way to help new people survive learning from their mistakes.

[justagame]

Your point is valid, but I make one objection to it: characters don't start out with a full set of hp gear.

What I mean by that is that while anyone can have gfl and a con item by the time they're in the vale, many new players might not have the +2 tome, and no new player will have a shroud hp item. A character who dumped con may struggle lacking these things, whereas one who put as many points as he could spare into con can get by until he can finish gearing up.

This catchphrase is the simplest way to help new people survive learning from their mistakes.

Definitely a fair comment as it applies to the shroud item and tomes, I agree with you there. But especially at mid levels, there are many things a newcomer can get fairly easily. Toughness can make a huge difference. Depending on class, toughness on a melee can mean 40 to 70 hp at mid levels very easily. The bottom line is that if someone is wearing a reasonable con item, some kind of false life item (even ifl), and has toughness, it's pretty difficult to tell if they started a little low on con. However, if they dumped con, AND skipped toughness, AND didn't bother with con or false life items, then it's very easy to tell that something's wrong, and that character is going to be in for a rough time. And 2-4 more starting points in con isn't going to fix that by itself.

[Peo]

The phrase "CON is not a dump stat" always bugs me, not because hit points don't matter (they do!), but because CON is only a small part of the problem.

Here here.

I started with 14 con my self but I have almost 430 HP as a sustained number. Without even equipping the Minos Legens.

Constitution: 22 (+6) = 14 (base) + 2 (tome) + 6 (enchantment)
Hit Points: 429 = 160 (monk) + 120 (con) + 20 (DDO) + 10 (favor) + 69 (toughness x3) + 20 (ap) + 25 (GS) + 5 (lesser false life)

Finishing my HP based Concordant Opposition Goggles would mean another +20 HP. I have room for False Life to grow (up to +40!) and can graft the +20 item based toughness HP using epic tokens. That's another +75 HP alone which breaks 500 easy enough. Nonsustained we can talk about +2 guild & +2 moral to con for even more HPs (40).

[cdbd3rd]

....
By the way, "CON is not a dump stats" is getting really annoying to me as a 2month old player. ...

That's because the game is rated for Teen+.
Come back in 12 years, 10 months.

[Varr]

That's because the game is rated for Teen+.
Come back in 12 years, 10 months.

This had me laughing!

[Lleren]

(Scratching my head) Actually what is the acceptable HP value for the elitists?

By the way, "CON is not a dump stats" is getting really annoying to me as a 2month old player. I mean I had only max 364HP and ransacking shroud hopefully to craft a HP accessory to boost it higher.

400 with Evasion will generally be acceptable. 350 with Improved Evasion can often, but not always work.

So just make sure you wear a 6 Con item, something with Greater False Life, your Heavy Fortitude of course , and eventually craft yourself a greensteel Hit point item ( which stacks with greater false life ) with some other usefull effect.

-----

Hit points are time to react, not just for the "Healers" along, but also for yourself. 400 Hitpoints should give you enough hitpoints to live between the Mass Heals in most runs as a character with Improved Evasion, Fire Resist and Mass Protect. I and other Rogues of my aquantaince have noticed a significant jump in survivability between 350 and 400 Hitpoints, another not quite as large jump on the way to 450ish, and after that any Hitpoint increase gives minimal results in survivability for Shroud.

In bad runs however you can still die, I have seen my 450ish Hit point Rogue and Monks spike down to double digit hitpoints when part 4/5 has gotten funky. Mass Protects are often not refreshed, Heals are delayed as they try to save someone with low hitpoints, etcetera.

I should mention that my Rogue has seen 600+ hitpoint Fighters dieing before he does in the Shroud, and they where in Mass Heal Radius, it just wasn't happening. On my Lower level Barbarian I have had his 700+ Hitpoints drop into the low hundred in some runs, so with no Evasion you want even more.

Yes I get into a lot of bad Shroud Runs, I also get into a lot of good ones, and very few just decent ones =D.

That netted me 20 hp. Nice, but not game-changing.

20 Hitpoints are game changing for a Shroud Running rogue between 300ish and 400ish hitpoints.

[Der_Incubo]

In bad runs however you can still die, I have seen my 450ish Hit point Rogue and Monks spike down to double digit hitpoints when part 4/5 has gotten funky. Mass Protects are often not refreshed, Heals are delayed as they try to save someone with low hitpoints, etcetera.

I should mention that my Rogue has seen 600+ hitpoint Fighters dieing before he does in the Shroud, and they where in Mass Heal Radius, it just wasn't happening. On my Lower level Barbarian I have had his 700+ Hitpoints drop into the low hundred in some runs, so with no Evasion you want even more.

Yes I get into a lot of bad Shroud Runs, I also get into a lot of good ones, and very few just decent ones =D.



20 Hitpoints are game changing for a Shroud Running rogue between 300ish and 400ish hitpoints.

When my 600 hp bard (w/evasion) dies i start to worry..

swear them lagspikes cause more deaths than 8 con rogs...

[Razcar]

But even with 10 more HP, thats far far from 477 HP the guy above mention when "his only sweet gear is a gs hp item" - I'm sorry, but this comment really **** me off

Well, he didn't give very much info. Maybe it's a 13 rogue 7 barbarian. Maybe it's a Warforged Q-staff rogue with low Dex and lots of build points into Con. Maybe he is counting Raged, Madstoned and with ship buffs. Or maybe he took several Toughness-feats.

I understand if his flippant tone ticked you off though 477 HP isn't easy for an un-buffed "standard" rogue to reach, without tomes, weird feat allocation, Exceptional Con, SFL etc.