Character Stats 101

[Lorien_the_First_One]

After some discussion with Tolero, we both agreed this was a good point! So I've added "Keeping this Ability Score no lower than 10 is highly encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style." to the entry concerning CON.

Did you mean to say 14?

Because if you look at the threads in the last couple days you will realize 10con gets people auto-declined from groups thanks to myddo.

[FordyTwo]

Suggestion 2
If you are planning on building a series of pages (Characters Stats 201, 301, and 401 in University parlance) mention that early on the document and you should really include what you are attempting to do as part of that description.

This page is designed to provide the basic elements of character design in DDO:EU. Subsequent pages will take an indepth look at other aspects of the game.

Suggestion 3
Your images are fairly useless in thier current mood. IE I really wanted to click on them and get some further information, but instead got to the image screen.
There placement is also a little awkward.
It would be nice if a drill down or popup listed what feats were available by class.

@Suggestion 2 - Yes, there will be an ongoing release and wiki-style cross-linking of 101, 201 and other guides. I've updated the intro text because you make a very good point here!

@Suggestion 3 - I agree with you, although I need to do some investigation about the best way to do this and how easily/soon our images can be made this way. All good things in time!

As to the suggestion of the removal of AC, BAB, etc: The idea for this guide is to cover most of the things a player is presented with when they hit the "C" key in DDO. While this also includes things like Fortification, Alignment, and Resistances I've taken some liberty to focus on specific elements that many newer players I talked to had questions about.

Edit: I also see discussions have been going on about 10 CON still being too low. That seems reasonable, so I bumped the entry to suggest 12 instead.

Edit 2: Tips have been tweaked in response to feedback from dkyle. Thanks!

[yawumpus]

That are good tips. But I thing that FordyTwo told that they avoid details in that version. Because of that I don't mention about SR and DC - and this is basic of DDO.

This is not mistake. But Min / Max your toon.

I doubt that this guide should use the terms SR and DC, but it should at least push that
"Intelligence makes wizards' spells more effective"
"Wisdom makes clerics' and FVSs' spells more effective
"Charisma makes bards' and sorcerers' spells more effective"

A 10 con is still a dump [ed. you mean 14, not 12], I really thought you were joking on that post. Players should increase it until it requires more than one point to increase it, then hit the other required stats in order. For those with less required stats (fighter, barbarian, wizard, sorcerer), it is easy to increase some more. Players would be wise to avoid decreasing constitution from this level.

I would remove the line about dexterity and armor class. This is dumbed down enough that shouldn't trick players into investing in worthless AC. Leaving that bit altogether should help players avoid gimping their characters by putting precious points into dexterity.

Character stats 201 should deal with things like:

DC and SR, and why casters need 18 casting stats (hint, 18 wisdom for fvs, charisma is nearly a dump stat).
(stats 301 will deal with melee clerics/fvs/bards and how to build them)
required stats vs. beneficial stats: why rangers only need 14 dex, and can dump wisdom.
"unbuffable requirements": why TWF builds need 15-17 dexterity and paladins need lots of charisma.

It might not have been a design goal, but DDO is now a min-max game. While I don't feel that every player need play flavor of the month, I don't feel the need to encourage new players the same "opportunity to fail" on the player creation screen and not know it for months later. I make a point to steer new players to Tihocan's builds and leave my explanations on how to make a halfling barbarian to those who don't appear to be new to the game.

[Requiro]

(...)It might not have been a design goal, but for me DDO is now a min-max game.(...)

Fixed for you

[Therigar]

A 10 con is still a dump, I really thought you were joking on that post. Players should increase it until it requires more than one point to increase it, then hit the other required stats in order.

Well, this is a false premise and an unfortunate one. If CON were really not a dump stat it would not be possible to use it as one -- each and every character would be required to start with minimum 14 (or 12 in the case of drow and elf) and have their starting build points reduced.

Obviously CON is a dump stat and there are even some people with the skill and gear to make it work.

What the community might think is appropriate in terms of building is not what the 101 should be addressing. It should be focused on the essentials of character building and include pros and cons for different decisions.

This is really what you are talking about when you say CON is never a dump stat. You are really saying that there are severe consequences for low CON. Yet, range focused and insta-kill builds being used primarily for soloing content can have very low CON scores with minimal negative effect because the tactics they will use in a quest will be vastly different from the brute force methods used by most groups. In fact, they might easily do very well with just the starting CON number and having never put a build point into CON.

This whole lack of pros and cons along with neutral guidance on how to make choices is why I find the 101 to be too simplistic. As it stands it might be a passable introduction to a 101 on character stats. But, without dealing with the decision making that goes into custom builds and talking about pros and cons, with relevant and neutral examples, it really isn't going to be useful.

[Therigar]

Fixed for you

That is a mistake to presume to have fixed what wasn't broken. DDO was a min/max game from the moment of release and group strategy limited to brute force for all but a limited number of encounters.

Even a cursory pass thru the forums will reveal this as the guiding premise.

People who take a different approach either have a strong support group via guild or static group or ride the coat tails of those who do min/max.

[TheDearLeader]

Two hours and already second page. Does seem that this is a popular topic, yes?

Explaining the very basics is nice... three things I can see happening right now, though, is something that we see on these forums every day.

A. Its on the Compendium, something that I hardly ever see people (esp. new people) actually *use*. New people find it difficult to navigate or find what they are looking for, older players use the Wiki, and lazy players make a forum post.

B. "Oh I've played Dungeons and Dragons since 1st Edition, my dice are older than my house! Now let me raise my Sorcerer's Dex to 16, I want to make sure my Armor Class is good...hmm and probably 8 Con, I want to roleplay being frail in body composition..."
^^^^Seasoned D&D players tend toward thinking that they "know it all", such as my first DDO toon, a Fighter, having Cleave and Great Cleave because they always worked so well for me in PnP. They will end up ignoring this guide because they think they know better than.. well, anyone not them.

C. "I should get my Will Save up! +Wisdom. This Drow Barb is gonna rock!" Sometimes too much information at once is bad. Perhaps it wouldn't be bad to actually have at the bottom a general idea of where stats should be assigned for each class for 28- and 32- point builds.


So... yeah. There's all of that. Also, I noticed that the"Feat/Ability Increase" diagram uses Ninja Star-like icons to denote feats being earned. I can only assume this means that the Halfling Thrower PrE will make it into Update 9, and I need to roll a Ninja Spy II/Kensei I/Rogue 2 with all feats into making my Shuriken do more Deeps.

[dkyle]

This whole lack of pros and cons along with neutral guidance on how to make choices is why I find the 101 to be too simplistic. As it stands it might be a passable introduction to a 101 on character stats. But, without dealing with the decision making that goes into custom builds and talking about pros and cons, with relevant and neutral examples, it really isn't going to be useful.

The purpose isn't "pros and cons". It's advice for new players, who don't know enough about the game to weigh those pros and cons. And I think it's pretty clear that new players are better served by advice about what they're likely to encounter, not what a handful of elite players do.

A new player should never, ever, dump CON. Period. Down that road lies disappointment and frustration at high levels. Only after fully understanding the game can someone effectively experiment with low CON.

Get them started with with simple instructions that will serve them well. Deeper understanding of the game will come later.

[FeralKittie]

Very cool. My main suggestion is it needs higher visibility. This is exactly the kind of thing that belongs on the "Game Info" drop down menu on the main page.

Also, under "Asking for Assistance", I would add something to the effect of, "For more in-depth info, visit the forums or the wealth of player-created resources", with a link to the fansite listings.

Personally, when I first started, it took me an embarrassingly long time to find resources on the game, and I had alot of difficulty finding what I was looking for in the compendium (I'm a bit shy, and would much rather read on my own initially). This is the stuff players should be able to spot day one.

[yawumpus]

What the community might think is appropriate in terms of building is not what the 101 should be addressing. It should be focused on the essentials of character building and include pros and cons for different decisions.
... why I find the 101 to be too simplistic. As it stands it might be a passable introduction to a 101 on character stats. But, without dealing with the decision making that goes into custom builds and talking about pros and cons, with relevant and neutral examples, it really isn't going to be useful.

The amount knowledge required to make a workable 8 CON character and play it to cap would probably be more than typically covered in a 101 (US college introductory) course (just the information needed to build it might come close to a few fluff courses I had to take). This is an important build decision, and it only gets a line or two of text. I suspect just leaving it at 14 would be less confusing than the typical advice of "increase at least as long as you get one point of CON per build point", but would leave some pointless dwarf builds.

You can suggest that a newbie should make wizards with both 8 INT and 8 CON, but you might as well suggest playing WoW afterwards, because they won't stay with DDO very long.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

@Suggestion 2 - Yes, there will be an ongoing release and wiki-style cross-linking of 101, 201 and other guides. I've updated the intro text because you make a very good point here!

@Suggestion 3 - I agree with you, although I need to do some investigation about the best way to do this and how easily/soon our images can be made this way. All good things in time!

As to the suggestion of the removal of AC, BAB, etc: The idea for this guide is to cover most of the things a player is presented with when they hit the "C" key in DDO. While this also includes things like Fortification, Alignment, and Resistances I've taken some liberty to focus on specific elements that many newer players I talked to had questions about.

Edit: I also see discussions have been going on about 10 CON still being too low. That seems reasonable, so I bumped the entry to suggest 12 instead.

Edit 2: Tips have been tweaked in response to feedback from dkyle. Thanks!

I hope you realise that you just allowed the power gamers to dictate how "ALL" ddo chars should be made (stats allocated).

You now have made it the official Turbine opinion that every char should have a high Con.

And that since it is the official opinion, it can then be assumed that every char has the recomened stat. So then it will be used as the standard to create damage effects in the future.

Which means that anyone who makes a char without the sugested minimum Con is now at a real disadvantage.

Before now. Before it was officially a higher number. People would assume that a 10 Con was an average adventurer. And damage would be set for what the average chars HP were.

Now you just raised the bar. You just created inflation in damage/minimum HP.

Now there truly is no other way to make a char without gimping him.

Before a high Con was an advantage. It meant that that char was more developed than average in that stat. (HP)

Now the above average Con is just the average Con. Which makes the guy who invested in it weaker, and the guy who does not much weaker, cause instead of just being average, he is now below the average.


I can only hope that the designers wil now assume that the average Dex is an 8, and adjust future content appropriately.

[Zadkiele]

The purpose isn't "pros and cons". It's advice for new players

I don't think so, I think it's intended to be 'information' for new players, not advice. Sure there might be a bit of advice in there here and there, but it's prime function is to be information about those numbers on the character sheet and what they mean.

DDO has by far the most complicated and obtuse stat system out there, certain aspects of which are very important to know and yet unintuituve for people with no D&D experience who have played other MMOs (bonus stacking, I'm looking at you) and I suspect that Turbine have had feedback that they are losing a lot of potential new players because of that steep learning curve, which has prompted this article. And I think it's a good thing.

Zad

[bigolbear]

on BAB:
id recomend adding a caveat that BAB is determined by your class and that many feats require a minimum BAB to take them thus a mele will often get access to those feats faster than a specialist or a spellcaster.


on dexterity:
you say it is your prmary form of defence. I dont agree with this given the way DDO is implemented. i would recomend changing this to something like "dexterity is an important form of defence for rogues monks and rangers and any one that intends to wear light or no armour. Characters that wear heavy armour such as full plate will have less use for dexterity and the benefits of high dexterity are limited by wearing heavy armour and using towershields"

on inteligence:
inteligence determines the number of extra skill points you will get and increases to intelligence will not give you more skill points retroactively so unless your a wizard whos spell casting is determined by inteligence it is usualy a good idea to start with a reasonable inteligence even if you intend to spend your levling up stat points somewhere else, strength for example.

On stats in general:
please list the kind of skills that are affected by that stat - eg strength effects jump. aditionaly where you have put this stat may effect spellcasting for some classes please list which classes. further more please explain that rangers and paladins get very few offensive spells so a high wisdom (over 14 including items) is not normaly needed.

On feats:
it is worth noting that many feats have prerequisites, these prerequisites can include other feats, a minimum BAB and a minimum score in a given stat which does not incude any bonus to that stat from items or enhacnements.

on advice:
id recomend including a link to the ddo wiki and point out that it is a player managed resource that turbine has no offical domain over.
Id also recomend joining an established guild and asking for advice there (/gu for guild chat)

on race:
there is no mention of how race would effect a character, this should be addressed.

overall i thought that it was a well designed document for new players and i commend the approach - i thought the pictures were nice and would be helpful to new players.
I'd also like to suggest additional documents like these:
"coming from a pen and paper D&D background"
"coming from a mmo background"
"etiquete and freindly behaviour in DDO"
"how to find a group, a guild and freinds online"

[yawumpus]

Two hours and already second page. Does seem that this is a popular topic, yes?

C. "I should get my Will Save up! +Wisdom. This Drow Barb is gonna rock!" Sometimes too much information at once is bad.

This is why I suggested removing the AC bit from dexterity. The game has Dungeons and Dragons in its name, and plenty of games that followed D&D give such bonuses to dexterous characters. DDO snatches such benefits so fast from so many characters that such information is completely wrong. It would be even closer to the truth to state that it doesn't give such benefits (although since the players might learn that it does on Korthos, mention just how transient they are).

[Zenako]

Suggesting that new players put points into CON is fine, but not at the expense of doing other things well.

Yes the common balls to the wall zerg and mosh pit tactics many employ does place a premium on having enough Hit Points to withstand a battle without dying. HOWEVER, while a common play style, it is far from the only play style. It is a very suicidal play style for most new players who seem to more often than not spend time running solo for a while until they get their feet wet in the game.

AC DOES matter a LOT in those low levels. It takes only a bare minimum of gear to get decent AC that matters. Without building for it AC at the higher levels becomes hard to maintain, but also keep in mind, many many of these players are fine with just playing on Normal Settings and there, even at the higher levels, viable AC can be maintained.

So at second level, will those 2 extra HP be worth to keeping you alive than perhaps getting missed more often (with an extra point of AC)? Or some extra damage on an attack, or more success with landing a spell?

This is for Stats 101, not "AP Stats for TRs"

[Angelus_dead]

Well, this is a false premise and an unfortunate one. If CON were really not a dump stat it would not be possible to use it as one -- each and every character would be required to start with minimum 14 (or 12 in the case of drow and elf) and have their starting build points reduced.

That is quite different from what the term "dump stat" actually means.

A "dump stat" is something that a type of character does not need, and may as well leave very low. For example, Wisdom is a dump stat for Sorcerers. If Constitution were a dump stat for some classes, then it would be sensible for those classes to leave Consitution very low. But since Constitution is fairly important for everyone besides hagglebots/bank-mules, to say it isn't a dump stat is accurate.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

That is a mistake to presume to have fixed what wasn't broken. DDO was a min/max game from the moment of release and group strategy limited to brute force for all but a limited number of encounters.

Even a cursory pass thru the forums will reveal this as the guiding premise.

People who take a different approach either have a strong support group via guild or static group or ride the coat tails of those who do min/max.

That's not completely true.

Players made it that way, not the game. Players chose to use those tactics. They are not required. Nor are those who do not min/max riding on anyone else's coat-tails or piking....etc.

The one place I have always felt this game ewas a min/max game by design was with spell casters and their casting stat.

For both saves DCs and runes.

I guess you can add trap saves to that. And trap Search Disable DCs.

Anyway, both situations have always bothered me.

Combat is not a min/max game. Less DPS just means things die slower.....but usually they still die.
it is the players that have chosen to approach every problem from a min/max DPS standpoint....not the game.

[TheDearLeader]

Now the above average Con is just the average Con. Which makes the guy who invested in it weaker, and the guy who does not much weaker, cause instead of just being average, he is now below the average.

I can see the point of this argument to a degree. Raising the standard universally means content will be more difficult...

Where this fails to make the connect with reality is that the people who currently are in game with Base 6/8/10 Con already *are* dying. Low Con is often a symptom of a larger problem, and characters such as these tend to also have other imbalances.

Maybe its High'ish AC, but lacking GFL, Toughness as a Feat/Enhancement Line/Item property, Con +6 Item, etc. Maybe its a super-high Reflex Save, but a low Fort save. Or maybe Evasion, but no Improved Evasion, and somehow a relatively poor reflex save.

Either way, Low starting Con is a symptom of a larger problem of player inexperience with this particular MMO... lets say 9 times out of 10.

Gear and enhancements, we can help a new player change. Even feats, at least to a degree. But starting ability scores are set in stone, barring TR, LR, GR, or Reroll. They are the foundation; why not give new players a solid foundation?

[dunklezhan]

don't know if this has been said:

"Tip! Some class abilities and feats require you to have a “minimum” amount of a particular Ability Score. Keep that in mind when picking your ability increases! "

Add 'although you can increase ability scores with enhancements and equipment, these do not count towards your "minimum" amount.'

Catches a LOT of people out. 'But... but I HAVE 17 dex! And enough BaB! Why can't I buy GTWF? What do you mean enhancements don't count? Why doesn't it say that in the feat description! How are you supposed to know this stuff!'

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I can see the point of this argument to a degree. Raising the standard universally means content will be more difficult...

Where this fails to make the connect with reality is that the people who currently are in game with Base 6/8/10 Con already *are* dying. Low Con is often a symptom of a larger problem, and characters such as these tend to also have other imbalances.

Maybe its High'ish AC, but lacking GFL, Toughness as a Feat/Enhancement Line/Item property, Con +6 Item, etc. Maybe its a super-high Reflex Save, but a low Fort save. Or maybe Evasion, but no Improved Evasion, and somehow a relatively poor reflex save.

Either way, Low starting Con is a symptom of a larger problem of player inexperience with this particular MMO... lets say 9 times out of 10.

Gear and enhancements, we can help a new player change. Even feats, at least to a degree. But starting ability scores are set in stone, barring TR, LR, GR, or Reroll. They are the foundation; why not give new players a solid foundation?

People with max Con die too. Sometimes even first.

When you charge into battle, agro a whole room full of monsters, consider AC useless.....the result is that you take damage. A lot of damage.

it is not the low Con that kills people.
In some cases it is the low Con, but that is because they are trying to play the game the way the guys with high Con are playing it.

New players are not learnng caution. They are learning that the only way to not die is to have a ton of HP. And that is not true.

They are also not aware of the same vets they see charging into every fight are probably tweaked to the max with gear. Gear that one way or another keeps them from getting hurt.....

Why stop at 12(14 ) Con?
Why not just suggest that all characters should start 18 Con and put all lvl ups into Con. And Take Toughness feat and enhancements, and wear Grtr False life items, Minos Helms and GS HP items........MINIMUM!
And make that the official Turbine opinion.

Since that is exactly what most forum posters advise.
It is what the Uber players al claim.

Every forum post claims that their chars have 500HP. Every one of them do.

So lets make it the official Turbine opinion that every lvl 16+ char should have 500HP.


And lets design all future content assuming that everyone has 500HP.







Or.
We can assume that only certain kinds of players have 500HP.
And that they had to give up something else to get those HP.
So we can challange them by putting something in the game that having another stat lower would be a disadvantage.

The way to control inflation in HP is to make having super high HP un-needed. To limit it's advantage. And to make other things also needed and useful.

But by letting the vocal majority(minority?) dictate that everyone should make chars just like they do, and to acept that as universal standard....puts anyone who chose a different route at a bigger disadvantage than they were before.