Dear Turbine Devs, a note about quest flagging

[Zaodon]

I will keep this short and sweet:

- grinding quests for rare loot is acceptable and an expected part of any MMORPG.
- grinding quests to FLAG for other quests/raids is not.

Thank you.

[Angelus_dead]

- grinding quests to FLAG for other quests/raids is not.

Whether that is acceptable depends on if the quests are endgame or not.

When the level cap goes up and an old dungeon series is no longer the endgame, the amount of repetition to flag should be lowered.

[Zaodon]

Whether that is acceptable depends on if the quests are endgame or not.

When the level cap goes up and an old dungeon series is no longer the endgame, the amount of repetition to flag should be lowered.

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. Flagging a character for a quest should never be a grind. It should be a process. Its ok if that process is complex, but it should not be grindy. The two that come to mind right away are Abbot and ToD. In both, you must grind for loot just to flag, and this is not acceptable design. Gridning a quest (the same quest) over and over should never be required to FLAG for something. The very concept of "Flagging" should be akin to a "process" which you must go through with each character, and should not involve randomness.

I am not saying that flagging for Abbot should be made quick and easy, and if you're reading it that way, you're reading it wrong. It simply should not be a grind. Making a player run 4 pre-quests, and then run the pre-raid 4 times is still an 8 quest process for flagging, and that is by no means easy or trivial. Think of shroud. 5 pre-quests. Done. That's it. Perma-flag, 5 quests. And the same for VoN (4 prequests). Even DQ is 3 pre-quests and done, then just re-flag via pre-raid once time per DQ. But in every case, there is no grind involved.

That is how all flagging should be, everywhere, all the time, even when quests are new.

[Bargol]

I agree that the flagging for abbot could be re-thought as it can be a grind to get sigil pieces. TOD only requires you to do a few quests to flag. You chose to wait until you have boots because noone wants to be banished, but without boots you are still flagged.

[Zaodon]

I agree that the flagging for abbot could be re-thought as it can be a grind to get sigil pieces. TOD only requires you to do a few quests to flag. You chose to wait until you have boots because noone wants to be banished, but without boots you are still flagged.

You are technically correct. However, if you cannot complete the raid, I would argue that that is the equivalent of not being flagged. ToD is a fairly unique case, but ultimately, getting boots is semantically the same thing as flagging, in essence.

[jwdaniels]

Flagging for the abbot raid isn't that bad - it actually has a mechanic that is different from other raids, which is where the problem comes in I think. The thing to notice is that the four initial quests are level 14, Litany is level 15, and the raid is level 17, so the fact that you are repeating things is built in already. If you bring a group and trade sigil pieces, you can get a full sigil for everyone fairly easily, and quite frankly those four quests are fun to run (particularly if you're a radiant servant).

Even running litany isn't so bad - yes, you're running the same quest four times, but you're running a different piece of it each time.

I haven't flagged for ToD yet, so I can't speak for that process.

[sirgog]

I agree that the flagging for abbot could be re-thought as it can be a grind to get sigil pieces. TOD only requires you to do a few quests to flag. You chose to wait until you have boots because noone wants to be banished, but without boots you are still flagged.

Not optional any more on a melee. Not optional at all.

Anyone that accepts a non-booted melee into a ToD is failing in their responsibilities as a party leader.


I'm glad they fixed the worst flagging grind (Tor relics). Abbot could possibly be looked at - maybe flagging quests on Elite could guarantee the static piece for that quest in addition to giving a chance for the random pieces, but at least at the moment, if a group of 6 people run each flagging quest three times and share sigils, they are usually all flagged.

[Zaodon]

Not optional any more on a melee. Not optional at all.

Anyone that accepts a non-booted melee into a ToD is failing in their responsibilities as a party leader.


I'm glad they fixed the worst flagging grind (Tor relics). Abbot could possibly be looked at - maybe flagging quests on Elite could guarantee the static piece for that quest in addition to giving a chance for the random pieces, but at least at the moment, if a group of 6 people run each flagging quest three times and share sigils, they are usually all flagged.

Yes, I did forget to mention Tor/Reaver, only because the lowered requirement (9 of each relic) is basically trivial to accomplish by simply running each quest in Gianthold once (each flag quest, plus each side quest.). If you can get all the relics with just 1 run of every quest, I can "over look" the fact that its still grind-based, because the grind is in essence trivial/non-existent.

[KillEveryone]

I've been on this bandwagon since I hit had to grind out that last sigil in Inferno. I encountered it in Gianthold with those relics but I had enough XP that I didn't care if I hit that raid or not so I just ignored it till I wanted to get into the next quests.

I don't care to do Inferno anymore because of having to run that particular quest just to get my last sigil to advance that quest line. I do like the quest mechanics and it is an interesting quest but I'm burned out on that quest just trying to get the last sigil.

I don't care to grind out boot ingrediants just to do ToD either. That one particular item is only used in one particular raid for a quest mechanic of that one particular raid so I don't feel that they should be any type of grind. They do nothing for any other quest in the game.

I'm glad about Gianthold having the number of relics reduced. First character in TOR and I had to grind out the Dragon relics. Their reduction is for the better.

if a group of 6 people run each flagging quest three times and share sigils, they are usually all flagged.

Usually but not always. This is my whole problem. I was in a group when I flagged but I was unlucky on my rolls for the last sigil which was also what a few others were needing. It got a bit late others were tired so the group split and I had to get that last sigil. LFM didn't produce a group and in the time I was waiting, I can get those runs in to get that last sigil.

The flagging should not be random on how you get what you need to advance the quest.

I don't mind a process of doing certain quests to flag, it is the randomness of the items that are needed to advance the line.

[blitzschlag]

Flagging for the abbot raid isn't that bad - it actually has a mechanic that is different from other raids, which is where the problem comes in I think. The thing to notice is that the four initial quests are level 14, Litany is level 15, and the raid is level 17, so the fact that you are repeating things is built in already. If you bring a group and trade sigil pieces, you can get a full sigil for everyone fairly easily, and quite frankly those four quests are fun to run (particularly if you're a radiant servant).

Even running litany isn't so bad - yes, you're running the same quest four times, but you're running a different piece of it each time.

I haven't flagged for ToD yet, so I can't speak for that process.

the ascension chamber (the abbot raid) used to be lvl 15 aswell (same as litany).

i agree however that the random portion of sigil piece dropping could be lowered a bit. e.g. higher dropchance of the unique pieces. same droprate for the randoms.

the abbot flagging has never been so ugly as gianthold (that has now been trivialized) or demon queen have been.
while gianthold was an fully fledged grind before you could find relics in the rare chests, it is really trivial now.
demon queen was, like von, a test of stamina. a test of how many times can you make the run to chains/dq1 without going for a kill with your car.

von and dq deserved the change and the playerbase was reliefed. gianthold was uncalled for (mostly) as it was running the quests on norm/hard/elite + 2 rounds of rares got you the relics you needed. today you keep trashing the relics or not even picking em up anymore.

leave the abbot in general as is. maybe up the rate of the unique sigil parts.

[sirgog]

Yes, I did forget to mention Tor/Reaver, only because the lowered requirement (9 of each relic) is basically trivial to accomplish by simply running each quest in Gianthold once (each flag quest, plus each side quest.). If you can get all the relics with just 1 run of every quest, I can "over look" the fact that its still grind-based, because the grind is in essence trivial/non-existent.

It still requires an average of 2.25 runs of each quest in Gianthold, which IMO is reasonable. It's a goal you make quick and guaranteed progress towards.

When it was 5 runs of each quest - ugh. I didn't flag toons that were on intermediate lives.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. Flagging a character for a quest should never be a grind. It should be a process. Its ok if that process is complex, but it should not be grindy. The two that come to mind right away are Abbot and ToD. In both, you must grind for loot just to flag, and this is not acceptable design. Gridning a quest (the same quest) over and over should never be required to FLAG for something. The very concept of "Flagging" should be akin to a "process" which you must go through with each character, and should not involve randomness.

I am not saying that flagging for Abbot should be made quick and easy, and if you're reading it that way, you're reading it wrong. It simply should not be a grind. Making a player run 4 pre-quests, and then run the pre-raid 4 times is still an 8 quest process for flagging, and that is by no means easy or trivial. Think of shroud. 5 pre-quests. Done. That's it. Perma-flag, 5 quests. And the same for VoN (4 prequests). Even DQ is 3 pre-quests and done, then just re-flag via pre-raid once time per DQ. But in every case, there is no grind involved.

That is how all flagging should be, everywhere, all the time, even when quests are new.

Wholeheartedly agree. On my one of my TR toons, I ran Inferno 12 times (10 x n/1 x h/ 1 x e) and I was not able to get the right frame piece. Now with so many new players and TRs, that piece is almost never up for roll (like it was Pre Mod9). Same goes for the Vol piece. So I missed out on both flagging for abbot and awesome Litany XP not because I was too lazy or didn't grind it enough, but because I wasn't lucky enough to have that piece drop for me. That's just a horrible, horrible mechanic and should be changed ASAP.

[Angelus_dead]

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. Flagging a character for a quest should never be a grind. It should be a process. Its ok if that process is complex, but it should not be grindy. The two that come to mind right away are Abbot and ToD. In both, you must grind for loot just to flag, and this is not acceptable design. Gridning a quest (the same quest) over and over should never be required to FLAG for something.

But you are totally wrong. As already explained, the only problem with lengthy flagging for Abbot/TOD is if they're no longer endgame content (because then there are higher-level quests around with less flagging). To complain about repeating Abbot flagging dungeons a few times is invalid because most of those dungeons take under 10 minutes each.

If Abbot flagging was one-and-done then it would be pathetically short for endgame raid flagging.

The very concept of "Flagging" should be akin to a "process" which you must go through with each character, and should not involve randomness.

Randomness is a separate concern from "grindy".

And the same for VoN (4 prequests). Even DQ is 3 pre-quests and done, then just re-flag via pre-raid once time per DQ.

That's because the developers edited the flagging, once they noticed that Velah and Laliat flagging were no longer endgame.

That is how all flagging should be, everywhere, all the time, even when quests are new.

Incorrect. Flagging for quests should take time and effort appropriate for the the value and magnitude of the quest you're getting into, which in the case of endgame material should be at minimum multiple hours.

First the designers must choose how much time and effort it should take to get into the dungeon, and then set the flag mechanic to take that amount of time, which might or might not mean running the flagging quests more than once. To arbitrarily declare that repeating a quest cannot be part of a good flagging design is to ignore the reality that players complete dungeons incomparably faster than designers can build them.

[Angelus_dead]

Wholeheartedly agree. On my one of my TR toons, I ran Inferno 12 times (10 x n/1 x h/ 1 x e) and I was not able to get the right frame piece. Now with so many new players and TRs, that piece is almost never up for roll (like it was Pre Mod9). Same goes for the Vol piece. So I missed out on both flagging for abbot and awesome Litany XP not because I was too lazy or didn't grind it enough, but because I wasn't lucky enough to have that piece drop for me. That's just a horrible, horrible mechanic and should be changed ASAP.

You are complaining about XP, which means you are not treating the Abbot dungeons as endgame content. As already explained, content that is no-longer endgame should have the flagging accelerated.

But it is fallacious to claim that time-consuming flagging is always bad even if the material is meant for capped characters. The needs and resources of capped and non-capped characters are simply quite different.

[Zaodon]

But you are totally wrong. As already explained, the only problem with lengthy flagging for Abbot/TOD is if they're no longer endgame content (because then there are higher-level quests around with less flagging). To complain about repeating Abbot flagging dungeons a few times is invalid because most of those dungeons take under 10 minutes each.

If Abbot flagging was one-and-done then it would be pathetically short for endgame raid flagging.

Randomness is a separate concern from "grindy".

That's because the developers edited the flagging, once they noticed that Velah and Laliat flagging were no longer endgame.


Incorrect. Flagging for quests should take time and effort appropriate for the the value and magnitude of the quest you're getting into, which in the case of endgame material should be at minimum multiple hours.

First the designers must choose how much time and effort it should take to get into the dungeon, and then set the flag mechanic to take that amount of time, which might or might not mean running the flagging quests more than once. To arbitrarily declare that repeating a quest cannot be part of a good flagging design is to ignore the reality that players complete dungeons incomparably faster than designers can build them.

Sorry, but you're 100% wrong. No quest flagging was ever changed in the history of DDO because "it wasn't end game anymore." That is 100% fictitious. It was stated by Turbine Dev staff that the changes to VoN, DQ and even Reaver were because the flagging process for those quests were too grindy/repetitious. If you feel inclined, you can search out those Dev posts. So, please, do not make up things that are flatly untrue.

Endgame has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the mechanics for flagging. The new Lordsmarch quests have a nice easy flagging mechanism. Do the first 3 quests once, ever, to flag for the 4th. From then on, you can repeat the 4th (or any of the previous 3) in any order, without any sort of reflagging. And it was designed that way when they were introduced.

There is no valid reason to force players to repeat quests for the purpose of flagging. Making players repeat quests, as an MMORPG concept to keep players playing, can easily be accomplished the traditional way - by offering rare loot/some form of reward for repetition. Shroud is the perfect example. You flag ONCE. Period. Yet, players run it 100s and 100s and 100s and 100s and 100s of times, because there is always more GS you want to make, and always new characters to gear up.

And to completely invalidate your argument, Shroud was that way ... from the very beginning. Flag once (no grinding whatsoever), then run repeatedly. Therefore, your entire suggestion that quests should require grinding to flag when they are new/endgame, and then be changed later when they are not new/not endgame is false on its face, as Shroud completely disproves your assertion.

[Bargol]

Not optional any more on a melee. Not optional at all.

Anyone that accepts a non-booted melee into a ToD is failing in their responsibilities as a party leader.


I'm glad they fixed the worst flagging grind (Tor relics). Abbot could possibly be looked at - maybe flagging quests on Elite could guarantee the static piece for that quest in addition to giving a chance for the random pieces, but at least at the moment, if a group of 6 people run each flagging quest three times and share sigils, they are usually all flagged.

I completely aggree that its not option especially on a melee toon, but technically booting a toon is not part of the flagging for TOD. It would be un-wise to try to run TOD without boots especially on a melee.

I agree with the Tor relics. going from 20 down to 9 has made flagging toons more common.

Abbot really is the only flagging mechanic left that requires a grind to get the rare drops needed for the sigil. Since its not endgame anymore maybe have a few automatic drops in chest...like vale, but make the random ones a percentage based on difficulty (ie. 25% normal, 50% hard, 75% elite).

[Angelus_dead]

Sorry, but you're 100% wrong. No quest flagging was ever changed in the history of DDO because "it wasn't end game anymore." That is 100% fictitious.

No, you are the one that's wrong.

It was stated by Turbine Dev staff that the changes to VoN, DQ and even Reaver were because the flagging process for those quests were too grindy/repetitious. If you feel inclined, you can search out those Dev posts.

And if I were to search for those posts, I would find that they were written after those dungeons were no longer the highest-level of content. In other words, they support my position and disprove yours.

Endgame has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the mechanics for flagging.

Look, the fact that MMORPG gameplay tends to substantially alter for endgame characters versus levelling characters is pretty universally known and accepted. To claim that the developers of literally hundreds of MMORPGs are mistaken about the nature of endgame is an outrageous claim which would demand serious justification to be plausible.

So, do you have a justification for why capped-level endgame characters somehow experience flagging exactly the same way lowbie levelling characters do?

And to completely invalidate your argument, Shroud was that way ... from the very beginning. Flag once (no grinding whatsoever), then run repeatedly. Therefore, your entire suggestion that quests should require grinding to flag when they are new/endgame, and then be changed later when they are not new/not endgame is false on its face, as Shroud completely disproves your assertion.

Is that supposed to be a joke? "Shroud was originally one-time flagging, therefore one-time flagging is always the best everyplace". For that sequence of claims to make logical sense, they depend on the assumption that the DDO devs are infallible and always use the best-possible flagging mechanism... which conflicts with your complaint that Abbot and TOD have bad flagging rules...

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

But you are totally wrong. As already explained, the only problem with lengthy flagging for Abbot/TOD is if they're no longer endgame content (because then there are higher-level quests around with less flagging). To complain about repeating Abbot flagging dungeons a few times is invalid because most of those dungeons take under 10 minutes each.

If Abbot flagging was one-and-done then it would be pathetically short for endgame raid flagging.


Randomness is a separate concern from "grindy".


That's because the developers edited the flagging, once they noticed that Velah and Laliat flagging were no longer endgame.


Incorrect. Flagging for quests should take time and effort appropriate for the the value and magnitude of the quest you're getting into, which in the case of endgame material should be at minimum multiple hours.

First the designers must choose how much time and effort it should take to get into the dungeon, and then set the flag mechanic to take that amount of time, which might or might not mean running the flagging quests more than once. To arbitrarily declare that repeating a quest cannot be part of a good flagging design is to ignore the reality that players complete dungeons incomparably faster than designers can build them.

The fatal flaw of your argument is the fact that flagging is a matter of luck, not effort. You can run all the quests ad nauseum and still not get the sigils you need. Same as getting boot materials in Amrath. That's a completely inexcusable, indefensible, horrible mechanic.

[Angelus_dead]

There is no valid reason to force players to repeat quests for the purpose of flagging. Making players repeat quests, as an MMORPG concept to keep players playing, can easily be accomplished the traditional way - by offering rare loot/some form of reward for repetition.

You're apparently making a false distinction between flagging and gaining loot. In reality, flagging is a kind of loot-acquisition activity: flagging for a dungeon is how you progress towards getting loot from that dungeon.

Look, here's a simple example. Suppose the designers create bosses A, B, and C, and ultimate loot-item D. How shall the designers insert those bosses into the game? Here are two possibilities:

• 1. One big raid instance, where you must kill boss A, B, and C in order, then have a chance to get D.
• 2. You kill boss A in dungeon 1 and boss B in dungeon 2 to flag for dungeon 3. Then you go there and fight C to get a chance at D.

In either way, the players have to kill bosses A+B+C each time they want to loot D. Splitting them up into different instances gives the players flexibility to do only part of the content at one sitting, or to change difficulty levels for different settings. But there's no real difference between repeating a boss because he's in the same dungeon as the loot, and repeating because that's how you flag for the loot.

[Zaodon]

And if I were to search for those posts, I would find that they were written after those dungeons were no longer the highest-level of content. In other words, they support my position and disprove yours.

Look, the fact that MMORPG gameplay tends to substantially alter for endgame characters versus levelling characters is pretty universally known and accepted. To claim that the developers of literally hundreds of MMORPGs are mistaken about the nature of endgame is an outrageous claim which would demand serious justification to be plausible.

So, do you have a justification for why capped-level endgame characters somehow experience flagging exactly the same way lowbie levelling characters do?

Is that supposed to be a joke? "Shroud was originally one-time flagging, therefore one-time flagging is always the best everyplace". For that sequence of claims to make logical sense, they depend on the assumption that the DDO devs are infallible and always use the best-possible flagging mechanism... which conflicts with your complaint that Abbot and TOD have bad flagging rules...

1. Your argument that VoN, DQ and Reaver were changed after they were no longer "end game" is 100% invalid. There is no "Cause/Effect" present between the changes and the end game. The fact that they were changed after they were no longer "endgame" is 100% coincidence. In fact, it would be nearly impossible for Turbine to change, fundamentally, the flagging mechanic of a quest while its new to the game. It INHERENTLY takes Turbine time to get feedback from players who complain about how hard it is, accept that the design is bad, come up with a new design, incorporate that into their development cycle, get it through QA and then to live. To claim that those quests changed "after they were no longer endgame" is fallacious on its face. They changed once Turbine realized, accepted, and acted. That took time. And to claim that they aren't "end game" is also pretty weak. Everyone (level 20 4xTRs and newbies alike) runs VoN (epic), DQ (normal and Epic), and Reaver for key items for their builds. These raids are still, to this day, "end game" content.

2. Fact: The level cap was once 16.
Fact: When the cap was 16, Shroud was released, and was inarguably the End Game quest.
Fact: Shroud never required grinding to flag. The grinding happened in Shroud itself for the REWARD of ingredients to make Green Steel.

That is irrefutable proof that end-game content does not require "Grinding" for FLAGGING. Because at that time, end-game (capped) toons flagged once, and then started grinding shroud. And now, long afterwards, capped toons STILL flag once, and STILL grind Shroud.

Therefore, your claim that end-game quests SHOULD require grinding for flagging is false, since THE MOST POPULAR QUEST IN DDO was once end-game, and never required grinding to flag.

I don't know any other way to prove that your claims are 100% fictitious.