stunning fist DC and crit handwraps.

[erikbozelie]

So, is an (DC) 36 decent enough to use and if so,
which handwraps should i use to beat down?

[blitzschlag]

So, is an (DC) 36 decent enough to use and if so,
which handwraps should i use to beat down?

is this with or without the +10 from generic stunning wraps?

what quests are we talking about?

if epics and with +10 stunning, then its not enough. the higher in the 40s the better. got stunning dc at 45 with my kensai and figure to have a roughly 50% chance in echrono to land it.

[Shade]

Given monks faster attack rates and far shorter stun cooldowns, they can get by with a lower DC.

He didn't specify exlusively epics..

So i'd say yes: thats a good dc. It will work well in most any normal and hard quest. Somce elite/epic quests will result in a lot of saves, but im sure you can improve the DC when your ready to do those.

[Therigar]

Stunning Fist DC is 10 + half monk levels + WIS modifier + wrap stun value.

Assume that no monk is going to invest build points for starting 18 WIS or stat increases into WIS. The reason, in spite of improving finisher DCs and AC it comes at the expense of STR and other stats. It is a very unlikely situation.

At best a monk will start with 16 WIS and invest 3 enhancements, a tome and use a stat item. WIS is topping out somewhere around 28-30 with ship buffs. Slightly higher if stances are used to boost WIS and if Yugo pots, exceptional stats and so on are included. Therigar sits at 24 WIS at L18. That lower WIS is probably more typical of most monks (although not necessarily those specifically built for Epic content).

That puts Therigar's DC at 10 + 9 + 7 = 26 before taking the wrap stun value into account. He's only picking up another 1 point at L20. If I had pushed WIS to 30 I'd have added another 3 points. That would be 30 DC before wraps.

A monk that maxes out on WIS could reach something like 47 WIS (18 base, 3 enhancements, 5 stat increases, 4 tome, 3 exceptional, 2 ship buffs, 2 Yugo pots, 4 stance, 6 stat item). At L20 that would be 10 + 10 + 18 = 38 before wraps.

IIRC +10 stun is highest I've seen on generic wraps. So max DC is somewhere around 48. Not sure what that does to STR or CON or DEX -- but pretty sure it will cut into them enough that pushing for such a high WIS is probably not the best idea.

[erikbozelie]

Stunning Fist DC is 10 + half monk levels + WIS modifier + wrap stun value.

Assume that no monk is going to invest build points for starting 18 WIS or stat increases into WIS. The reason, in spite of improving finisher DCs and AC it comes at the expense of STR and other stats. It is a very unlikely situation.

At best a monk will start with 16 WIS and invest 3 enhancements, a tome and use a stat item. WIS is topping out somewhere around 28-30 with ship buffs. Slightly higher if stances are used to boost WIS and if Yugo pots, exceptional stats and so on are included. Therigar sits at 24 WIS at L18. That lower WIS is probably more typical of most monks (although not necessarily those specifically built for Epic content).

That puts Therigar's DC at 10 + 9 + 7 = 26 before taking the wrap stun value into account. He's only picking up another 1 point at L20. If I had pushed WIS to 30 I'd have added another 3 points. That would be 30 DC before wraps.

A monk that maxes out on WIS could reach something like 47 WIS (18 base, 3 enhancements, 5 stat increases, 4 tome, 3 exceptional, 2 ship buffs, 2 Yugo pots, 4 stance, 6 stat item). At L20 that would be 10 + 10 + 18 = 38 before wraps.

IIRC +10 stun is highest I've seen on generic wraps. So max DC is somewhere around 48. Not sure what that does to STR or CON or DEX -- but pretty sure it will cut into them enough that pushing for such a high WIS is probably not the best idea.

to be honest, yes i did. i will leave the build out of this thread. please dont ask me to post it.
DC 10 + 1monk levels + 15 or so wisdom +10stunning wraps = 36. if i really will need 40 i guess it should be an WF or dwarf.

but what kind of handwraps to get. switching is an pain and lowers dps.
so +10 stunning handwraps of X.

what should i put in the X?. not sure how much modifier i have left.

holy burst?
greater bane?
i dont know, something with auto crit?

[Malky]

Stunning is a suffix for all weapons, so you'd better look for a prefix to go with it (alignment/element bursts are of course preferred)

[blitzschlag]

to be honest, yes i did. i will leave the build out of this thread. please dont ask me to post it.
DC 10 + 1monk levels + 15 or so wisdom +10stunning wraps = 36. if i really will need 40 i guess it should be an WF or dwarf.

but what kind of handwraps to get. switching is an pain and lowers dps.
so +10 stunning handwraps of X.

what should i put in the X?. not sure how much modifier i have left.

holy burst?
greater bane?
i dont know, something with auto crit?

+3 force burst of stunning +10 are nifty.
get icy burst on em somewhen on the next iceday
get holy burst ring
get electric burst ring
= everyday good trash beaters

edit: oh, i guess your build is a clonk 18/2 or fvs/monk 18/2. for either of em 36 is respectable. however you will possibly better swap to a pair of maiming rocksplitters once theyre stunned.
annoying and work? yes.
better results? yes.

[blitzschlag]

Stunning Fist DC is 10 + half monk levels + WIS modifier + wrap stun value.

Assume that no monk is going to invest build points for starting 18 WIS or stat increases into WIS. The reason, in spite of improving finisher DCs and AC it comes at the expense of STR and other stats. It is a very unlikely situation.

At best a monk will start with 16 WIS and invest 3 enhancements, a tome and use a stat item. WIS is topping out somewhere around 28-30 with ship buffs. Slightly higher if stances are used to boost WIS and if Yugo pots, exceptional stats and so on are included. Therigar sits at 24 WIS at L18. That lower WIS is probably more typical of most monks (although not necessarily those specifically built for Epic content).

That puts Therigar's DC at 10 + 9 + 7 = 26 before taking the wrap stun value into account. He's only picking up another 1 point at L20. If I had pushed WIS to 30 I'd have added another 3 points. That would be 30 DC before wraps.

A monk that maxes out on WIS could reach something like 47 WIS (18 base, 3 enhancements, 5 stat increases, 4 tome, 3 exceptional, 2 ship buffs, 2 Yugo pots, 4 stance, 6 stat item). At L20 that would be 10 + 10 + 18 = 38 before wraps.

IIRC +10 stun is highest I've seen on generic wraps. So max DC is somewhere around 48. Not sure what that does to STR or CON or DEX -- but pretty sure it will cut into them enough that pushing for such a high WIS is probably not the best idea.

dorf and wf get +stunning enhancements.

a str/wis monk with proper gear can get a 40 stunning fist dc and a 40+ stunning blow dc. those are on different cooldowns. pretty nifty. but not too reliable on epics. still very useful. so you can reliably get 12+ active stun attempts per minute.

[Soleran]

a str/wis monk with proper gear can get a 40 stunning fist dc and a 40+ stunning blow dc. those are on different cooldowns. pretty nifty. but not too reliable on epics. still very useful. so you can reliably get 12+ active stun attempts per minute.

Don't forget yugo pots and ship buffs for another 2 dc stunning fist and you'll find it rare to have a caster or archer resist your sf, just don't gun for orthons/devils/high fort mods that are easily held.

42 sf dc in epics owns casters/archers all day long.

[TheDearLeader]

IIRC +10 stun is highest I've seen on generic wraps. So max DC is somewhere around 48. Not sure what that does to STR or CON or DEX -- but pretty sure it will cut into them enough that pushing for such a high WIS is probably not the best idea.

Few other things could also raise this value, such as Dwarven/WF Tactics, and Fighter Passive Past Lives.

[Zero_Tolerance]

I started with 16 WIS. +2 tome +2 enhancements +6 item +2 ship buff = 39 stun DC with +10 wraps. Can hit 40 in water stance. It is quite ok in non-epic content, I can't complain.

I haven't done much epics though [some VONs, WizKing gnolls] but from what I did, I'd like more than 40. Since I lack epic experience, I can't say how that DC really works out across all epic quests [possibly other creatures have worse saves than what I had to deal with].

I will probably get exceptional WIS gear [for swapping], and I am also planning 3x fighter life to add to DC. I've met some monks ''made for epics'' that put everything in WIS - I think it is a bad idea, not going that way myself. I think with some TRs and little more gear it will be possible to hit 44-45 DC without gimping other stats, and that's where I will stop.

Gear-wise: +X Holy of Stunning +10 is what I'd consider as main weapon. Other +X any_burst of Stunning +10 for those mobs that don't take good damage. Force Burst of Stunning would be cool, but I haven't seen any yet with good stats, and also, they probably win over Holy only if you can manage to land your stuns most of the time [and mobs live long enough to get some burst hits in].

[Impatiens]

Assume that no monk is going to invest build points for starting 18 WIS or stat increases into WIS. The reason, in spite of improving finisher DCs and AC it comes at the expense of STR and other stats. It is a very unlikely situation.

While I don't know any monks that start with 18 Wis, it is definitely not an unlikely situation for monks to put stat increases into wisdom on level ups. There are many builds that do this.

[Therigar]

While I don't know any monks that start with 18 Wis, it is definitely not an unlikely situation for monks to put stat increases into wisdom on level ups. There are many builds that do this.

I would not put stat increases into WIS and can see no value in doing so for monks that are damage oriented. Because the game is all about DPS for melee characters it seems counterproductive to put stat increases anywhere other than STR.

But....

Not all players are focused on the DPS aspect and some even still work on silly things like AC.

A build that is gearing towards Epic with a focus on Stunning Fist it might make good sense to boost WIS with stat increases. That it has the added benefit of also impacting AC would be a bonus.

I would think that if this is the direction a build is taking that it would be beneficial to get the 18 WIS if the build points are there. That could be tricky since I'd presume that STR is no longer a primary focus. That almost implies that to hit has to be coming from DEX and Weapon Finesse.

A build that is all DEX, CON and WIS would seem to have too few build points to really go for 18 WIS. Even if DEX were held down to just enough to qualify TWF feat chain and there was a STR investment I think pushing WIS wouldn't work.

The issue really is the to hit numbers I think.

Since it is counterintuitive to me to think that to hit can be high enough without stat increases going into either STR or DEX I can't imagine a build putting stat increases into WIS.

What I can see is the situation where 1 of the 5 increases might go into WIS. But all 5 or even splitting them in some bigger way....

Well, I can't see that as being smart in any way. So, if it isn't unlikely for stat increases in WIS then it just means that a lot of monks don't really know what they're doing with their stat increases.

Build point wise I think 16 is the max most builds can afford and that is pushing the top limit. In some rare cases 17 might get used to go with the 3 enhancements to reach an even number. But, I think that is unusual.

Stat increase wise I think it is only asking to roll a lot of misses by investing in WIS rather than the primary to hit stat (STR or DEX, depending). Having a high stun DC is meaningless if you roll miss, miss, miss.

[DevHead]

Oh, and I'd suggest +10 stunners with any sort of burst you can find (force, holy, and shock preferred). And add a Force Crit ritual; it's cheaper than Force damage which is per hit, and these wraps are meant for auto-critting, anyway, so the overall DPS is much better on stunnable creatures. They'd more or less suck on bosses.

Edit: forgot a couple words; corrected.

[DrakmireTS]

Re: Therigar (since I didn't want a massive quote wall of text)

As with most monk builds, it's just going to be one of those things that's dependent on how you want to play your monk. Is it always the right choice to put points into Wis? Of course not. But it sometimes is, it just depends. A lot of epics I've run take me specifically because of the stunning fist DC, even when we have an archmage in the group. Being able to stun caster mobs with their inherently higher will saves makes epic Tides just that much faster and smoother.

Regarding your chance to hit, in the current iteration of epics, there's very rarely a case where I need to prep a target with imp destruction. Almost always, it's just a quick jump behind the target, stunning fist, then watch all the barbs sprint over when they see the stun crown over my target's head. Contribution to the group can take a form of more than just damage, as any archmage will tell you.