Savant Prestige Information

[Malithar45]

Ugh,...hehe, this is the sort of response you always get if you answer these dumb questions.

Nah, just the response you get to ridiculous claims.

The new Pre will definitely effect that toons DPS, if I follow the changes correctly. My WF dps will go down if I choose the Pre route in many situations. For example, a combo I often use when putting out a lot of damage is DBF, Polar Ray, Chain Lightning (sometimes I mix in meteor swarm). Another Combo that deals high DPS against high save or evasion is Polar ray and force missile. These will all probably suffer. I have not put in the time to see for sure but I assume they will. With that toon I will probably run the new quests before commiting to changes. Maybe grandfathering will occur as it has in the past.

However, with the new cheap SLA's sustained damage and pretty good DPS is now possible. This is something not available now. For example, currently very very high sorc dps is really only possible on say bosses who appear right after a shrine. A lot will depend on the mob saves, however; I am optimistic based on the early calculations I have performed.

Love me some calculations that are based on assumption. A previous quote too for the lawls.

Because of this, he has enhancements in all three elemental areas and can put out as much or more DPS than any other party member (usually the former) including melee in any quest or raid. He can also out damage any party member against red names and bosses in many many quests and raids.

Its this sort of back and fourth that makes you hard to follow and agree with. I'll agree on your previous point that Toughness isn't required by all. But I'd toss in its **** hard to pass up. For my own character, a Rogue, I've thought of dropping it. I'm at an unbuffed 497 HP with it. Dropping it would give me 1 feat and 7 AP to use. But what would I do with it? Take Quick Draw for a tiny bit more damage? OTWF for +2 hit? Those things don't compare with 52 HP, regardless of how much I find myself having. And nevermind the APs, they'd be spent on things with little to now value like trap saves or bonuses to skills. And while you could forgo it to grab another Focus for +1 DC, I can't wrap my head around why you'd want to short change yourself like that. As Omni said, you're in insta-gib territory, regardless of whatever epics you solo or how amazing you may be. A screw up is a screw up, whether on your part or another. If you don't have the HP to survive that, then what use are those extra DCs or your CC or your DPS? Solo away by all means, no one can really argue that, but state so in the beginning, not that "epic was nerfed because of builds that prioritized HP." That's just BS. If anything, I'd side with epics were nerfed because glass cannons didn't know how to build to be a strong character, rather than a pewpewpew chug a pot pewpewpew build. I'd even go so far as to say the Sorc TIII abilities being based on Con is evidence of that. :P Although I'd like to believe its been done more to be in line with elementals, perhaps leaving the door open for the future, maybe adding in that you unlock an elemental form with your capstone based on your PrE.

And no, you're not going to run around at 200 HP in anything in endgame. Hell, that low and you're talking gimping gear even, forgoing a Con item, GS HP, GFL, Toughness item, exceptional Con, etc.

I see the point now concerning where your 8 AP difference came from, but next time try and lay it out, not pull a number outta the air and add it to the number I provided, which double dips. I'm all for variety in builds and people being able to do what they prefer, but that comment about the epic nerf set the direction of this the wrong way, even more so when it came to the point (that you have yet to really address) of which stats are going to be more important than Cha and Con. Acting high and mighty when you're taking the counter point doesn't really get you very far by stating you solo many epics, toughness isn't needed, Con isn't needed, can heal yourself with 200 HP, etc. Take a step back and explain stuff out, why you feel such. Doubt this would of continued as it had if that would of been said rather than "tired of explaining to noobs" "no time to teach" etc.

[mel]

I run with at least 300 plus hitpoints on all my casters, however, often don't even bother to heal until my points drop into the 200's.

I completly agree with you here. I play myself a human dex wiz build from day 1. At that time I thought that Turbine would implement range touch attack so I thought it was wise. I never took toughness (what a waste), insightful reflex (who cares with a dex build) and started with 8 con. Since then I learned how to play a squishy in every situation (I mostly play top endgame content but whatever, ddo is not maint to be a challenging game). People tell you that you can't have 200hp because you can be hit by 400hp straight damage blah blah blah This is a joke. I loved to be able to play a different build than the trend, to show around what can be done with a different build and above all I loved that we had the choice (at least for a few of us). Now for my Sorc this is no more I guess. They reduced the choices at least concerning the abilities. Let's hope that it will raise the choices in other fields.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

People tell you that you can't have 200hp because you can be hit by 400hp straight damage blah blah blah This is a joke.

By all means, play what you want. But don't expect to be as good as a well-built character.

[lugoman]

How will the inherent spells work? Will they cost a spell slot or do they come from the enhancement like power surge with kensei?

[Kirlian]

anyway... did anybody notice that fvs don't require second feat for their PrE? can we have that requirement removed too?

[Absolute-Omniscience]

How will the inherent spells work? Will they cost a spell slot or do they come from the enhancement like power surge with kensei?

Just like the SLA's wizards have, that is; for free like Kensai Surge.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

anyway... did anybody noticed that fvs don't require second feat for their PrE? can we have that requirement removed too?

[Sarcasm]
And while we're at it, lets remove all the feats required for Kensai.
[/Sarcasm]

They're not really the same class, nor do they serve the same purpose. So you shouldn't expect the same requirements.

[mel]

By all means, play what you want. But don't expect to be as good as a well-built character.

It's not because my character is not builded as your's that it's a not a "well-built" character. It's perfectly well built to play it with my playstyle: my 4 years achievements and 1st with my guild in Europe speaks for itself.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

It's not because my character is not builded as your's that it's a not a "well-built" character. It's perfectly well built to play it with my playstyle: my 4 years achievements and 1st with my guild in Europe speaks for itself.

Let me paraphrase what I said:

A well-built character can do anything a poorly built can, but a poorly built can't do anything a well-built can.

So, while it might suit you to play slow and what not. You could do that just as well with a good build. But if you want to play rushy, or take aggro, or whatever, you can't with a poorly built.

[Malithar45]

I completly agree with you here. I play myself a human dex wiz build from day 1. At that time I thought that Turbine would implement range touch attack so I thought it was wise. I never took toughness (what a waste), insightful reflex (who cares with a dex build) and started with 8 con. Since then I learned how to play a squishy in every situation (I mostly play top endgame content but whatever, ddo is not maint to be a challenging game). People tell you that you can't have 200hp because you can be hit by 400hp straight damage blah blah blah This is a joke. I loved to be able to play a different build than the trend, to show around what can be done with a different build and above all I loved that we had the choice (at least for a few of us). Now for my Sorc this is no more I guess. They reduced the choices at least concerning the abilities. Let's hope that it will raise the choices in other fields.

Not sure about this "dex wiz build," just see a lvl 5 Wiz and lvl 20 Sorc in your sig. Dunno if you meant the Sorc or not since its got a starting Dex of 8, but meh. I can relate with being a squishy, really. My first life on my Rogue was my first character and I started with a 10 Con. It was painful lvling up, even towards endgame. But I made changes, swapped feats, took two Toughness (was human) and focused on gear to get beyond 400 HP. It was a world of difference. The reason I even bring that up though, is that no matter how well YOU play, you can't control others. If healers were spot on, I did well enough with my 350ish HP, but when they weren't, I went down. I made corrections to help in something that I couldn't control.

What are you going to do in Shroud when the melees don't box Harry right and a Meteor Swarm flies at you? Reflex saves or not, you're going down at 200 HP. ToD p2, say you lag a second or make a bad cut and a shadow clips you, how long is that 200 HP going to last? How's eDQ2 going to go? I'd sure hate to be in that ball method. How about when an Abishai comes from behind in eChrono? Hell, their spells hit me with Improved Evasion for 200+ if I fail lol. ToD p3, orthons spawn and people are slow to get to them or they roll a 20 on your FtS, what now? There's only so much that you as a player can control.

Call HP whatever you want, but in the end, its your safety net for when things go wrong, whether by your own hand or another. Could you run around with 200 and never die? Sure, if everyone does exactly what they're supposed to do, there's never any trouble in runs you're on, never any lag deaths, never any other bad players, never any mistakes, etc. When there are though, you won't be walking away from it.

And just as a side note, outside of a few wasted starting stats, your Sorc looks fine except for gear. You optomized for Cha and Con mostly, as most in this thread have said. The odds hurt but meh. No idea what you took instead of Toughness, even more so since you're a Human, but hey, more power to you.

It's not because my character is not builded as your's that it's a not a "well-built" character. It's perfectly well built to play it with my playstyle: my 4 years achievements and 1st with my guild in Europe speaks for itself.

Grats on your achievements. Now, a question. "It's perfectly well built to play it with my playstyle." You're a (far as I can tell by myDDO) a Sorc. What other play styles are there? What stats do these play styles rely on? Cha? Check. What else? I don't see the benefit to any other stat, except Con. Raising a stat to pretend that the minute increase to saves will protect you doesn't really fly, so what are you gaining from stats other than Cha and Con?

[mel]

Not sure about this "dex wiz build," just see a lvl 5 Wiz and lvl 20 Sorc in your sig. Dunno if you meant the Sorc or not since its got a starting Dex of 8, but meh.

Bah this myddo thing is a bit weird. I was speaking actually about my level 20 wiz, created early 2006. When the EU severs were closed, I came here and builded a con Sorc in order to see the difference with my old dex build. And actually I realized that all those hp was not requiered *FOR ME*. Once again, I'm not trying to claim that a dex build is better than a con one, but with my dex build and my playstyle, I could get rid of feats which gave me the occasion to max several of my DCs even more. And this has prooven to be an alternative. I was just sad that this alternative doesn't exist anymore.

That being said I agree with you. If everything goes wrong it's better to have more HP than to have less. My experience has been forged in the vicinity of good players that play in team.

[LordDamax]

And no, you could not get away with 200 hp endgame. Perhaps you haven't really played anything later than the shroud?
Fact is, a lot of thins deal up to 400-500 damage a pop, and that's an instagib. It doesn't matter if you can heal or if you have 8 aps more. You'll die if you don't have sufficient hp.

What the heck deals 400-500 HP a pop in epics?

The worse I've EVER been hit for is a 244 dmaage cometfall in epic Last stand.

Everything else has been less.

[Viisari]

What the heck deals 400-500 HP a pop in epics?

The worse I've EVER been hit for is a 244 dmaage cometfall in epic Last stand.

Everything else has been less.

Epic velah, abishai from chrono, disintegrate can hit for >400 dmg in a few places, meteor swarm can also do tons of damage.

[Musouka]

What the heck deals 400-500 HP a pop in epics?

The worse I've EVER been hit for is a 244 dmaage cometfall in epic Last stand.

Everything else has been less.

The Kobold Shamans in Epic VoN1 cast disintegrate.
The Beholders in Epic VoN2 cast disintegrate.
Horoth casts disintegrate.
As mentioned before, Velah's breath.

[Failedlegend]

EpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEp icEpicEpicEpic...who the hell cares why does everyone base everything's worth off of such a SMALL part the game you know there's 20 levels before that.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Not to mention the end boss in echrono.

Or hell, just getting stunned and unable to heal yourself.
There are tons of situations where more than 400 hp is essential.

[stockwizard5]

EpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEpicEp icEpicEpicEpic...who the hell cares why does everyone base everything's worth off of such a SMALL part the game you know there's 20 levels before that.

Because we spend 24 hours on the 20 levels below that (really 19) and unlimited time at CAP (until we get bored and do the 20 levels below that again). Calling CAP a "SMALL part the game" is generally not accurate.

[Malky]

What the heck deals 400-500 HP a pop in epics?

The worse I've EVER been hit for is a 244 dmaage cometfall in epic Last stand.

Everything else has been less.

Epic traps ?

[tinyelvis]

The Kobold Shamans in Epic VoN1 cast disintegrate.
The Beholders in Epic VoN2 cast disintegrate.
Horoth casts disintegrate.
As mentioned before, Velah's breath.

Well, when you become experienced with the game you will learn how to,

1. Safely fight, dodge, and/or avoid beholders in VON 2 so that you never take their disintegrate damage, and always kill them safely.

2. Use advanced fighting techniques so that Horoth cannot ever hit you with disintegrate.

3. How to cast protective spells on yourself and hide from Velah's breath so no damage event like that ever happens.

Essentially, the more talented you are at damage mitigation, the less hitpoints you really need. If your play skill is at a high level and your play style does not warrent it, why take the extra hitpoints you dont need? It's obvious your skill is not at this level or you would never have put up those examples. In your case, toughness is probably a good idea. In fact, I advise many newer casters to go that route.

However, it is not a necessity for every sorcerer or wizard.

[Emili]

Ugh,...hehe, this is the sort of response you always get if you answer these dumb questions. People just slough it off. Many folks do solo many different epic quests. I do it without toughness on any of my casters. However, i would not recommend it to everyone. I use high end loot and personally find force of personality a way to make it easier.

The new Pre will definitely effect that toons DPS, if I follow the changes correctly. My WF dps will go down if I choose the Pre route in many situations. For example, a combo I often use when putting out a lot of damage is DBF, Polar Ray, Chain Lightning (sometimes I mix in meteor swarm). Another Combo that deals high DPS against high save or evasion is Polar ray and force missile. These will all probably suffer. I have not put in the time to see for sure but I assume they will. With that toon I will probably run the new quests before commiting to changes. Maybe grandfathering will occur as it has in the past.

However, with the new cheap SLA's sustained damage and pretty good DPS is now possible. This is something not available now. For example, currently very very high sorc dps is really only possible on say bosses who appear right after a shrine. A lot will depend on the mob saves, however; I am optimistic based on the early calculations I have performed.

No, I think these questions seem reasonable...