Savant Prestige Information

[wax_on_wax_off]

From the information from one of the quotes from Eladrin on the first page, each line will be split (no more fire/ice.... it becomes Fire OR Ice) and it's split into 7 sections for 1 ap a peice. That makes for one element 21 ap, and if you wanna do two elements, 42 ap.... for wizzies and sorcs.

I can't imagine that there will be 7 tiers of critical range and critical damage though? I can see the base damage though, 10% first tier + 5% for each tier there after up to +40%. Maybe threat range will be 3%+2% for each tier up to 9% (total: 4 AP: overall discount?). Threat multiplier will be easy .5 per tier same as it is now but discounted as well (3 AP total to balance out other extra costs). If this was the cast it would cost 14 AP to max out an element, 28 for 2 (compared to 22 with the old method). That seems fair and gives more incentive to invest in critical lines (when before there wasn't so much).

Let me imagine how I will level my sorcerer:
Level 1-7: Acid Spec (nothing immune to acid at this level and better shapes that lightning)
Level 8-17: Fire Spec (firewall does own and undead are easy, cold is less important here)
Level 18-19: Lightning Spec
Level 20: Swap between Lightning and Cold depending?

[Kabaon]

He stated that it starts off at 3% to crit, and then tier II is 4%, to make it on par with what it is now it'll take 7 enhancemtns to make the crit line equal... but that doesn't solve the problem with splitting the fire/ice enhancements up. so technically you have to take the fire crit lore and the ice crit lore, the fire lore and the ice crit lore, and the fire maniuplations and the ice manipulations all seperately..... so they might cost less per enhancement, but to get them on par with the way we have them now.... it'll cost us a bunch more.

Also it's not just fire/ice effected, it's all spell enhancement lines

[Tirisha]

Sure you'll be able to pop 2k fire damage off on a trash mob once a minute for 50 sp. Fantastic...

Actually that could have been a Finger fort save they just failed (though not sure if you could get your finger DC quite as high lol). Honestly this one should be half damage on a successful save or a 1/4 damage or like 10D6 damage. Attacking Fort in Epics ain't easy now with full minion debuff.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Let me make a development on my feat progression for a human:
1: Maximise
1: Spell Focus: Conjuration (good for early optimal acid spec + niacs cold ray)
3: Empower
6: Extend Spell
9: Heighten Spell
12: Spell Penetration
15: Greater Spell Penetration
18: Spell Focus: Enchantment
18: Swap Spell Focus: Conjuration for Spell Focus: Evocation

Overall, I'm a bit worried about my enchantment and necromancy DCs as I really appreciate the higher DCs on my wizard. Perhaps it won't be a big deal in the long run with gear but it will be annoying for a while that much is obvious.

[Vordax]

I can't imagine that there will be 7 tiers of critical range and critical damage though? I can see the base damage though, 10% first tier + 5% for each tier there after up to +40%. Maybe threat range will be 3%+2% for each tier up to 9% (total: 4 AP: overall discount?). Threat multiplier will be easy .5 per tier same as it is now but discounted as well (3 AP total to balance out other extra costs). If this was the cast it would cost 14 AP to max out an element, 28 for 2 (compared to 22 with the old method). That seems fair and gives more incentive to invest in critical lines (when before there wasn't so much).

Let me imagine how I will level my sorcerer:
Level 1-7: Acid Spec (nothing immune to acid at this level and better shapes that lightning)
Level 8-17: Fire Spec (firewall does own and undead are easy, cold is less important here)
Level 18-19: Lightning Spec
Level 20: Swap between Lightning and Cold depending?

He is wrong, its 7/6/6 for the tier levels see this.

Damage is 20% first tier 5% for the next 6.

Vordax

[wax_on_wax_off]

He is wrong, its 7/6/6 for the tier levels see this.

Damage is 20% first tier 5% for the next 6.

Vordax

Nice frontloading. That's fine. Beyond the first rank for critical lines you'll only take them to qualify for PrE's then. Nice that you can boost up untyped damage lines now (disintegrate).

Simply, an extra 1% chance to do double to triple damage is not worth an AP, imo. However, I would love to see some maths concerning how much DPS critical lines actually give.

[Kabaon]

so 19 ap per line instead of 21 per line, still 38 ap overall as opposed to 22 as it is (with no change to the maximum for fire and ice spells for example) seems like they wanna screw non-savant casters over. Frontloading or no it seems like a bad move

I am impressed with the change to Force though.

[wax_on_wax_off]

so 19 ap per line instead of 21 per line, still 38 ap overall as opposed to 22 as it is (with no change to the maximum for fire and ice spells for example) seems like they wanna screw non-savant casters over. Frontloading or no it seems like a bad move

I am impressed with the change to Force though.

No reason to spend 19 on a whole line though. 7 to get +40% damage, 1 on each of the criticals = 9 total, can get all 4 like this for just 36 points. Add a few extra to qualify for PrE's and your done.

Well, for my lightning/cold specced Savant I'll get the prereqs to qualify for Air Savant III, full damage and 1 AP in the critical range and critical damage enhancements for cold, fire and force (which includes disintegrate and cyclonic blast).

17 for lightning lines (only need tier 5 in crit lines to qualify)
9 for cold
9 for fire
9 for force (I'll dump reconstruct and take disintegrate)

total of 44 APs spent so far and I will have:
+40% damage for fire, cold, lightning, force, disintegrate, cyclonic blast, magic missile etc.
+8% chance to critical for +115% damage with lightning
+4% chance to critical for +75% damage with fire, cold, force, untyped spells

Energy of the Dragonblooded II and Improved Maximise II will also make an appearance as prereqs for 9 AP.

53 AP gone. 27 left.

12 Charisma III
2 Human Adaptability: Charisma I
6 Wand and Scroll Mastery III (maybe need IV for recon'ing considering lacking the spell)
2 Bloodline of Power

5 left.
2 Improved Recovery
1 Human Versatility
2 Spell Penetration I

Spell Penetration II-III?
Subtle Spellcasting I-IV?
Greater Adaptability: Constitution?
Improved Empower?

Work in progress ...

[AylinIsAwesome]

oh i see.... it still feels kinda... wonky to have sorceror's based off the hp stat :/, dwarven casters are the new dps magic i guess ?

Why are you so hung up on Dwarves?

Warforged are much more common as sorcs, due to the same +2 CON/-2 CHA, yet they also get Immunities (while they are a perk, they are better than the nothing Dwarf gets here), and the ability to self-heal.


This PrE really makes me want to roll up a sorc now. I'm thinking Water Savant (I need that Merfolk's Blessing bonus!) with whatever AP I can sink into untyped damage for the bonus to Horrid Wilting/Disintegrate (or maybe Electricty).

My biggest choice is...which do I choose? Human or Warforged?

[Kabaon]

Ok, but the main problem with not taking all the enhancements for each line means you gimp yourself in a way. And it's not just for sorcs, it's for wizzies too, which sucks.

I want to be able to take fire and cold and not spend 38 points to finish both lines. Yes I do care as we get the same benefits for fire and ice for 22 points. Aside from a little bit of flavor for sorc PrE's (to make sense with the whole reduction in spell effectiveness in same cases) and the fact that you can't pick and choose between fire/lightning or lightning/force, this change is bad. And it might not be so bad if the progression on each wasn't 7/6/6.

Edit:And I don't intend multispec like you are planning with every type of spell damage. If I did that all my gear would be obsolete becuase then I'd have to find something to benefit them as well. Hence why I wish the AP lines would be at least lower in cost on all front. 30 seems reasonable, but I'm pulling it from my butt. 38 seems high and I'm not saying 22 , 30 is right in the middle (and some of the ap could be combined to be more like 15% for first tier, 10% for second, 5% for 3rd tier to 5th tier and cost 1 ap a peice, and something similiar to the crit lore and the lore to balance it out to ad up to 15 for one line.

[tinyelvis]

lol at bolded..

So, lets assume a Human or WF, the only other races that will be pumping their Con at the "expense" of something. For Human, that'll be +1 Con at the cost of either 2 or 4 APs, depending if they took the Cha enhancement too or not. By doing this, they open up Toughness III, 3 APs. So 7 max. WF, +2 starting Con, +2 Con from enhancements at 6 AP total, and access to Toughness III and IV, 7 more. Most won't go past tier II as its sort of high for the benefit gained, and the save for these aren't based on HP, its Con, so worse case scenario you're looking at 6 APs spent by a WF or 4 for a Human to benefit. Thats only accounting for 1-4 of the Con many of these posters are talking about. Gearing and building correctly make up the rest.

Since you seem to believe that these types of builds will be SOL when it comes to spell DC (whatever gives you that idea?) what stat do you feel points are worth putting into? Cha effects your SP pool and your DC. Str helps you stay unencumbered, Wis gives you Will saves, Dex gives you Reflex saves, Int gives you skill points. But the lowly Con only gives you Fort saves, +20 HP per 2 mod, and now effects the DC of your PrE TIII ability. Yet, you're saying its people who build for whats useful thats caused this. So, lets hear it. What else is worth building for? What stat are you going to take instead of Con and Cha to help your DCs? What stat are you going to take to put you above the noobers that had to cause epic to get nerfed? Post reeks of stuff I'd see in the Rogue forums about how we're terrible and disable device is all we're good for. Utter junk.

Fetch rover. I guess your one of the guys the bone was tossed to.

Don't forget, if you go human and want max possible charisma and DC you will need to spend 8 more points than say a Drow who would rather have spell capability. That's a total of 15 points and a feat (toughness) that a human will spend if they go that route. Hope the "Fort saves, +20 HP per 2 mod, and now effects the DC of your PrE TIII ability", is worth it.

I'm guessing however, a couple months from now, we will see your toon toughness free.

[Asketes]

Fetch rover. I guess your one of the guys the bone was tossed to.

Don't forget, if you go human and want max possible charisma and DC you will need to spend 8 more points than say a Drow who would rather have spell capability. That's a total of 15 points and a feat (toughness) that a human will spend if they go that route. Hope the "Fort saves, +20 HP per 2 mod, and now effects the DC of your PrE TIII ability", is worth it.

I'm guessing however, a couple months from now, we will see your toon toughness free.

lol

like being pocket carried much do ye? :P

What do you mean 15 pts for a human to get the same capability over drow? they are only 2 different to start.. 2 ap to get to 1 difference

serious question:

- You build a sorcerer, what race and stat points do you start with? 32 point build (or 28 for drow b/c the racial bonuses)

[Emili]

Unless the feat requirements change, I won't even bother with this PrE.

GG making a PrE that half the players of a class likely won't use.

Those feat Prereqs look reasonable to me ... those are feats I'd expect on such PrE focused on elements as such. Is no different than the feat reqs on archmage, pale master or even kensie or berzerker.

[Malithar45]

Don't forget, if you go human and want max possible charisma and DC you will need to spend 8 more points than say a Drow who would rather have spell capability. That's a total of 15 points and a feat (toughness) that a human will spend if they go that route. Hope the "Fort saves, +20 HP per 2 mod, and now effects the DC of your PrE TIII ability", is worth it.

I'm guessing however, a couple months from now, we will see your toon toughness free.

What are you talking about? Serious question..

Don't see what you're talking about 8 extra points over Drow, of all things to compare to. And you mention that a Human has to spend a feat (on Toughness? seriously?) over the Drow. Newsflash, Humans get an extra feat. And you still completed dodged the original question: What stat other than Cha and Con do you feel is worthwhile?

Edit: And if you'd like to act like I'm "one of the guys" the bone was thrown too, my character's linked right below. I guess since I have a high Str and Con I've broken the game and it'll get nerfed, yeah? That seemed to be your logic with how the original epic saves were lowed.

[Jaid314]

Possible Spell List:
1: Nightshield, Jump, Expeditious Retreat, Protection from Evil
2: Resist Energy, Web, Knock, Invisibility
3: Haste, Rage, Displacement, Ray of Exhaustion
4: Fireshield, Firewall, Ice Storm, Dimension Door (option: Enervation)
5: Cyclonic Blast, Ball Lightning, Cone of Cold, Cloudkill
6: Chain Lightning, Reconstruct, Flesh to Stone (option: Disintegrate, Symbol of Persuasion, Mass Suggestion)
7: Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Finger of Death, Banishment
8: Trap the Soul, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Polar Ray (option: Horrid Wilting)
9: Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Mass Hold Monster

Summary of offensive spells:
3 lightning spells (Cyclonic Blast counts)
3 cold spells
1 fire spell
1 earth spell

(this is just going from my experience with my Wizard but there doesn't seem to be a lot of flexibility with a Sorcerer's spell list or am I thinking too DC reliant when I should be thinking more bang bang?)

given the new reality (specifically: epic save DCs going up, sorcerers have to lose a feat - probably spell pen - for spell focus, less epic hit points, spell damage increasing from helpless status...

i'm expecting to see a fair amount more nuke spells in people's lists, *especially* no-save ones.

for that, your best bet is in fact cold, which boosts both polar ray and horrid wilting, and has the handy spell ice storm for AOE DoT, with a secondary specialisation (minor) in force, probably at least 1 AP in each damage/crit chance/crit multiplier, but quite possibly expanding somewhat in damage just to be on the safe side.

by no means would i rank air highest... i would actually place water as highest, followed by probably earth (water is best for DPS, which is looking to be by a fairly hefty margin the new 'better' specialisation; earth is definitely the best CC specialisation, but may compensate quite nicely for water's inherent DPS with helpless mobs, possibly), with a bit of a tossup between fire and air. fire definitely has the higher damage of the two, but faces a lot of immunities. meanwhile air comes with probably the most versatile damage, since it boosts electric *and* sonic, has some damaging CC that it boosts (cyclonic blast, greater shout, electric loop as a spell-like) and dovetails nicely with that secondary force option as well. additionally, it can make use of the evocation focus for limited CC benefits, as opposed to just the nuking benefits.

that said... which is best? well, look at the changes to lightning bolt and acid arrow and tell me you'd have planned on those changes if we hadn't been told (for that matter, can you even conclusively answer what the new lightning bolt spell actually does? does it chain like chain lightning? turn into a cone? just do bonus damage to the unlucky target?). for all we know, shocking grasp is now a bolt spell with free enlarge, acid spray hits a cone the size of cone of cold, delayed blast fireball could feature an explosion now with another following 2 seconds later, and so forth. not to mention those two new spells *that we know of*, with possible other additions elsewhere.

but yeah... right now, if the spells don't all change drastically, my bet is on the prize-winning combo of horrid wilting + polar ray (water) in the category of no-save DPS with a side of freezing ice for CC against difficult targets, with the runner up being flesh to stone (spell pen vs drow casters) and conjuration focus for web as well as the earthgrab (earth), third place goes to air for utility and versatility in the form of 2 types of damage for one spell line (both of which are rarely resisted) with a bit of CC thrown into their spell lines as an added benefit, and fire actually comes in fairly far back as it is not really the best in any category, with the possible exception of dealing with undead... with the drawback of having far more immune monsters than any of it's competitors. while this is likely a huge benefit for someone who farms epic wiz-king and only epic wiz-king, i doubt it's going to be as strong.

that said, i do really wish the AP costs of the spell damage lines would come down. for the record, it's actually 19 AP (7 in the base damage line, 6 in crit chance, 6 in crit multiplier) which is just a hair better than the 21 someone above thought... (38 AP for two full lines)... but that's still a lot more than current lines, with only a small benefit.

oh, and as eladrin indicated... i doubt you'll see too many people who take, for example, water primary and air or earth as secondary... you're much more likely to see water primary and force secondary, to boost disintegrate.

so... what am *i* going to propose as a probable spell list in the future? assuming not much changes:

level 1: shield/nightshield (your choice), jump, magic missile (to take advantage of secondary force) or sonic blast (possible choice for air), ray of enfeeblement (could be swapped for just about anything, but it's an excellent CC spell in many ways - great for generating 0 stat in many enemies, especially when combined with exhaustion). protection from evil will be wanded as needed, or scrolled in the form of magic circle against evil.

level 2: resist energy, web, knock, blur. invisibility is great, but entirely scrollable. web bypasses SR, which is way too important now that most sorcerers will likely have only one (if any) spell pen feats. resist energy is a shoe-in (using wand for opposing element at several points most likely), knock and blur are less guaranteed... but blur is a nice "fire and forget" buff for your party, and knock opens a lot of doors (ha-ha, puns ahoy!). possible replacements include scorching ray (when the fire spell-like is on cooldown), or other elemental damage spell of choice. but i doubt it. displacement just isn't long enough duration to take the place of blur for most, and party buffing should still be a concern even on a nuking sorc.

level 3: haste, rage, displacement, and chain missiles, or replace chain missiles with a duplicate of the free spell-like. ray of exhaustion i expect to be largely ignored, since it has a save and will not be a strong choice most of the time imo.

level 4: i expect either wall of fire or ice storm, but not really both. ice storm should (assuming all stays the same) benefit from a secondary force specialisation, so that's where my money goes for anything except fire spec. but it could swing either way. dimension door definitely (too hard to scroll), enervation i expect to feature prominently for those single-target debuffing needs, and either stoneskin (for fire/ice/earth) or shout (for air, which will likely get used to wanding stoneskin or even go without, since they have much better survivability elsewhere). other possibles include acid rain for earth, maybe solid fog for air if they can't stand the shortened duration on cloudkill, and possibly fear (note that it *shouldn't* cause things to run away) for those who feel lucky.

5: cloudkill definitely (it's still the least intrusive visually of the clouds, even air will probably use it), break enchantment (it's still the best choice for a combination of removing annoying persistent effects and debuffing enemies), and then possibly cyclonic (saves a level 6 slot) or cone of cold or ball lightning. for the fourth slot... honestly, i doubt most care. most will probably take protection from elements, i'll be keeping waves of exhaustion and scrolling protection. some will likely take teleport 'cause they're too cheap for scrolls. a select few will take prismatic ray and hope for the best.

6: this is a big level. reconstruct definitely (it basically is a single spell to give you a full second role in many raids as an option), flesh to stone is pretty likely (especially for earth), but with higher save DCs on some mobs and more common untyped damage options i'm not 100% sure for disintegrate. many probably will (not everything will have a good save, and against those that don't it's still 40d6 damage), some won't. i suspect few will take chain lightning other than air savants. some will take GH (too cheap to scroll). my best guess is either symbol of persuasion (if epic ward keeps mass suggestion from working) or mass suggestion, since in this case only landing on half or fewer of the mobs is actually not a completely useless effect. mass suggestion also bypasses SR, giving it bonus points, and can be released if needed, for more bonus points. for me? probably at this point probably either disintegrate or flesh to stone, mass suggestion, and reconstruct. many air savants will want chain lightning instead of disintegrate or flesh to stone though.

7: otto's definitely, finger of death definitely, banishment i'm not so sure. it has a somewhat screwy save mechanism, which may in the end make it work where others won't. fire will probably take DBF instead, but i still think waves of exhaustion is a strong contender here (especially if 0 attribute = 50% bonus damage! also especially for those with lots of spells that have reflex saves). some will take prismatic spray (same reason as the ray) in hopes of replacing some other CC spell, as well as providing possible opposed damage (that is, a water savant can deal fire damage, etc). a very few might take symbol of weakness, but i doubt it will be common.

my picks will probably stay at my current otto's (but maybe not), finger of death, waves of exhaustion. the most likely choice to potentially replace otto's is prismatic spray, but it's not a high likelihood. dancing ball just isn't as good now that many mobs spam gust of wind and cyclonic ime. plus, there's still that pesky spell pen, which prismatic spray bypasses.

8: otto's i agree with you. i expect many will replace trap the soul with horrid wilting. most non-ice i suspect will replace polar ray with summon VIII (air elementals are still crazy good, barring any future changes). i expect horrid wilting to actually become quite common now, with it's AOE damage and no save granted. my picks: otto's (no save), horrid wilting (no save), and either summon or polar ray.

9: i mostly agree with your picks. energy drain, wail of the banshee, hold monster are the most likely 3 choices. that said, expect meteor swarm to be a popular choice too; in theory, the new force line should buff it (and i expect many sorcerers will now take force secondary), and even ice doesn't lose anything to the CL loss (no spell pen, damage is set and not based on CL).

so, damaging spells:

likely a level 1 option in either magic missile or sonic blast (sonic or untyped)
possibly a level 2 option. but less likely. (fire, if any)
almost definitely a level 3 option, likely imo to be chain missiles (but some will not be satisfied with their 6 second SLA cooldown for elemental damage). (could be any)
almost definitely a level 4 AOE DoT spell. (probably cold/bludgeon, possibly fire)
almost definitely a level 5 spell, likely 2. (untyped and could be almost any)
likely a level 6 option. (untyped or electric)
likely 2 level 7 options (finger of death = negative, and either fire or random i'm guessing)
likely 1-2 level 8 options (cold and untyped)
possibly a level 9 option (fire/untyped).

but that's just my guess.

[wax_on_wax_off]

lol

like being pocket carried much do ye? :P

What do you mean 15 pts for a human to get the same capability over drow? they are only 2 different to start.. 2 ap to get to 1 difference

serious question:

- You build a sorcerer, what race and stat points do you start with? 32 point build (or 28 for drow b/c the racial bonuses)

If you want a well rounded Sorcerer I would say Human with 8 str, 8 dex, 18 con, 8 int, 8 wis, 18 cha.

Other options: drow (higher DCs, less feats, less HP, less survivability) and WF (lower DCs, less feats, more HP, more survivability). Similar stats as above either way.

[Asketes]

If you want a well rounded Sorcerer I would say Human with 8 str, 8 dex, 18 con, 8 int, 8 wis, 18 cha.

Other options: drow (higher DCs, less feats, less HP, less survivability) and WF (lower DCs, less feats, more HP, more survivability). Similar stats as above either way.

i agree, but from what I infer from that other guys posts


he's saying we doing one of two things:
~~~(i think these come to 32 pts for human)~~~
12 random stat, 18 cha, 14 con
12 random stat, 14 cha, 18 con

like what else are we going to logically put into besides just con/cha?

nothing else is gonna matter end game with an extra 2-4 pts in.. i'd say dumpstat str if you have 2 pts leftover (28pt, 34/36 point builds)

[Kabaon]

I only said 21 becuase I assumed it was going to be an ap progression of 7/7/7, not 7/6/6. Still, 19 is a bit rediculous for ONE line, especially when we get two lines for 22 ap in total now (for the same end benefits).

For example, I have no intention of going fire/lightning or Cold/Earth. All my gear is specced for fire/cold (raid gear for example). The only true benefits for splitting the enhancement lines are to provide flavor for Sorcs and for giving us some caster combos never seen before, as well as the ability to be a Jack of all trades, Master of none.

I'm happy with my spec, and I'm sure many out there are to, why change?

[tinyelvis]

What are you talking about? Serious question..

Don't see what you're talking about 8 extra points over Drow, of all things to compare to. And you mention that a Human has to spend a feat (on Toughness? seriously?) over the Drow. Newsflash, Humans get an extra feat. And you still completed dodged the original question: What stat other than Cha and Con do you feel is worthwhile?

This really isn't the place to teach you the basics of caster creation, but add up the number of enhancement points you need to spend to get to max charisma. Do the same for the drow. You will see that a human will need to spend 8 more enhancement points to get there and match the drow (at present max charima is an odd number).

The rest is simple math. 7 (your number) + 8 (the extra points spent to get max charisma) leads to a total of 15. There are people who play drow who take toughness. Taking toughness is not directly related to your character race. However, someone who does not find the need for it (be they WF, human or whatever) frees up a lot of enhancement points and a feat. More people will be taking that route in the future, I guarantee you.

[Asketes]

This really isn't the place to teach you the basics of caster creation, but add up the number of enhancement points you need to spend to get to max charisma. Do the same for the drow. You will see that a human will need to spend 8 more enhancement points to get there and match the drow (at present max charima is an odd number).

The rest is simple math. 7 (your number) + 8 (the extra points spent to get max charisma) leads to a total of 15. There are people who play drow who take toughness. Taking toughness is not directly related to your character race. However, someone who does not find the need for it (be they WF, human or whatever) frees up a lot of enhancement points and a feat. More people will be taking that route in the future, I guarantee you.

um, OOHH you mean ability points.. clarification rolled a 1.

i was thinkign you meant AP.

the whole goal is to max your cha/con on casters...

start:
drow: 20cha/16/con
human: 18cha/18con

either way it's not a huge difference but humans get racial toughness AP they can take and they can get an extra cha from human if need be for 2 AP (or 4AP if it'st their 2nd human adaptability)

toss in the extra free feat and human really has a lot to offer


I'm still confused where you are thinking it's 8-15 AP for human to get to drow.. this makes no sense and has no logic to it that I can ascertain.. please explain yourself